Colonel Jeff Cooper described the DA/SA transition as crunch for the first part, and a quick tick for the second. He also called such autos "Crunchentickers."

Oh, ok! I never read that from him.

My gun knowledge of Cooper are that he loved 1911's, the CZ75, thought the Glock was not all that awesome, and the Colt Python was a good revolver.

That's all I know for his preferences.

I've carried DA revolvers, DA/SA SIGs, Glocks, and my TRP 1911 as duty guns. When I went through the academy 28 years ago they stressed finger straight on the frame with DA revolvers and being aware of foreign objects that might get in your trigger guard when you're reholstering. They also taught keeping your thumb on the hammer when you're holstering. There were plenty of NDs back in the day when DA revolvers were commonly carried. A lot of them were from thumb breaks getting into the trigger guard when the pistol was pushed down into the holster. They trained us to avoid that too. We also trained and were allowed to cock the hammer 25+ yard shots. From the draw it was pretty quick to cock the hammer and fire. From ready gun it was quicker.

Interestingly that striker fired pistols (M&Ps) got a bad rap for NDs when LASD transitioned to them from 92s. Then when you look into it it was a training issue where they were teaching to start the trigger pull before you made the decision to fire because of the long pull of the DA. you might be able to get at with that with DA but not a safe action striker.

Our legal department made us go to either DAO semi autos or Striker fired pistols because of the transition between double and single fire. If they hadn't I probably would never have gone away from SIGs.

I have a Gadget developed by TLG and Tom Jones on order to try on one of my Glocks. It replaces the plate on the rear of the frame. You push on it with your thumb and it disconnects the trigger. If you're trained to put your thumb on the hammer the Gadget is for you. It's been extensively tested by beta users on PF. 

It doesn't hurt to take a moment to glance at your holster to make sure nothing like a jacket string is there. You don't need to "speed holster" either.

ETA if I decide to stop carrying my 1911 I'll go back to my issue Glock. I won't buy a DAO semi auto to carry. I wouldn't mind going back to a DA/SA 228.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As a new member who has been perusing older threads for interesting topics I'm bringing this one back rather than starting a new topic. I elected to bring the entire thread back since there are so many good and thoughtful posts. I thought I'd just add my comments.

The plastic fantastic pistol (and even revolver!) tide swept away the production of quality all metal guns the popular DA/SA semi-autos pioneered by Smith & Wesson with the model 39 single stack and then the model 59 double stack. These first DA/SA pistols from S&W evolved through three generations with improvements along the way that in the third generation they attained the nearly perfect all metal, hammer fired pistol design.


Smith & Wesson "Shorty Forty"

Production costs for these weapons priced them so high compared to the mass produced, plastic, striker fired, designs. Even Smith and Wesson ultimatly caved in and created (or copied from Glock) plastic, striker fired pistols.

Safety-less striker fired pistol popularity, and growth of new shooters using them, has led to many negligent discharges - often with self inflicted wounds, some collateral damage (friendly fire?), and I'm sure a few fatalities. This problem with unexpected firing and the desire to appendix carry inside the waistband, with the muzzle pointed either at the family jewels or worse yet, the femoral artery are all factors in the resurgence of DA/SA activation popularity. Anybody jamming a striker fired pistol into their pants has not thought it through, or looked at the statistics.

As a person who has a strong preference for AISW carry for a number of reasons; easy and fast presentation whether standing, seated, or belted into a vehicle, the AISW carry with a suitable firearm is convenient and comfortable. It also offers superior retention and weapon protection during carry. For all those reasons and a personal distaste for striker fired pistols, not only for their often called "squishy" triggers with the activation blade as a trigger safety but mostly from the long held belief that plastic is best for squirt guns I never have and never will own one.


Glock 43

I've had an upbringing on the 1911 pattern handgun and am well aware of the joys of a finely tuned single action trigger pull. Cocked and locked has always been more than somewhat a concern when carrying AISW. Just a little unnerving to see that hammer back with the muzzle aimed right at my crotch. About 25 years ago I acquired my first DA/SA and my first S&W pistol a model 5906. All stainless steel construction and when when loaded to it's 18 round capacity it weighed in at 43 ounces. Pretty heavy for all day carry.


Kimber Custom Shop Ultra CDP II

The Smith and Wesson DA/SA design allows the hammer to be de-cocked and trigger deactivated with a slide mounted lever. In this configuration the weapon is very 1911 like in bringing it to bear. The difference being flicking the safety/ decocker of the S&W design up instead of down as on the 1911 and of course the double action first pull of the Smith design.

Over time I acquired several other third generation Smiths, most better suited to concealed carry, and specifically AISW carry. Carrying a DA/SA pistol is not a resurgence for me, more of a continuing practice. Once holstered I put the safety off ready to fire in double action. I consider this a safe as my revolvers.

My main carry gun is a five shot J frame revolver in AISW carry. Backup to that for a NY reload is one of my 3rg gen Smiths. I have a 3913NL and 1914LS that are both very compact and thin, being single stack. My favorite carry is my 4040PD, I like the speed, size, and weight of the .40S&W (short and weak my arse) When I want very thin and light I go with my 3914DAO


3914DAO w/ Big Dot night sights

I have recently been acquiring straight DAO pistols, giving me a very similar trigger pull as my DA revolvers. Shooting double action only pistols and revolvers have made me a better shooter. Having to master the longer trigger pull and later break of these pistols has even made me better with my DA/SA pistols. Cultivating the ability to hold on target throughout the DA cycle helps you with the trigger control of all the weapons you shoot.

digiroc

... how did the era of revolvers also detract from the DA/SA auto pistol? ...  why exactly did the 3rd gen smiths die out? Very interesting guns...

After the advent of cheap plastic guns most weapons manufacturers gave up making quality all metal construction guns to be price competitive with the Glocks of the World. A shame really because there is really no heirloom quality to a plastic gun. Also I don't believe it is possible go make a striker fired pistol with the trigger feel of a hammer fired weapon.

All of my third generation S&W semi-autos have superior triggers to striker fired pistols. Those that come from the S&W Performance Center or that have had trigger work done on them feel very much like my Smith and Wesson revolvers. I collect them because I think they represent the pinnacle of pistol development. The best pistols ever made. (sorry 1911 fans).

The era of revolvers is still with us and modern DA/SA (revolvers with exposed hammers) or DAO (revolvers with shrouded hammers) i.e. S&W Centennial style revolvers. I don't believe that revolvers detract from DA capable pistols, if anything shooters like myself who still carry revolvers, mostly nowadays as backup guns, benefit from identical manual of arms. Namely just pull the trigger and it goes bang, no other operations needed. As I mentioned I've even gone to carrying semi-autos that are DAO just to not have to ever worry that the safety has been inadvertently engaged.


Smith & Wesson model 6946 DAO

Just ask yourself how many times you have seen the "flinch test" of a shooter forgetting to take the safety of at the range. I know I've done it dozens, if not hundreds, of times myself. Just imagine that happening in an actual gunfight.

digiroc

The plastic fantastic pistol (and even revolver!) tide swept away the production of quality all metal guns the popular DA/SA semi-autos pioneered by Smith & Wesson with the model 39 single stack and then the model 59 double stack. These first DA/SA pistols from S&W evolved through three generations with improvements along the way that in the third generation they attained the nearly perfect all metal, hammer fired pistol design.

"Detract" was the wrong word, I was referring to this part of the quote. How did revolver production sweep away DA/SA production?

And very nice gun btw  . My relative's has black plastic grips and is a silvery, almost chrome looking finish.

"Detract" was the wrong word, I was referring to this part of the quote. How did revolver production sweep away DA/SA production?

And very nice gun btw  . My relative's has black plastic grips and is a silvery, almost chrome looking finish.

I think he is adding emphasis to the plastic revolution by saying even some revolver designs use a plastic frame, not that revolvers swept away DA/SA autos.

Those S&W Autos were not the popular style, and at the time, the grips felt oddly to those of us used to others... So we didn't buy them.
This was an oversight based on peer pressure or popular media, and it's tragic. 
Those are actually damn fine handguns with quality easily on par with SIG SAUER.

Where is my Delorean?

Those S&W Autos were not the popular style, and at the time, the grips felt oddly to those of us used to others... So we didn't buy them.
This was an oversight based on peer pressure or popular media, and it's tragic. 
Those are actually damn fine handguns with quality easily on par with SIG SAUER.

Where is my Delorean?

Quoted in entirety for truth.  When I bought my model 5906, an all stainless 15+1 "super nine" it was considered even by me as weak and fat in hand. I was used to the 1911 pattern that was popular at the time (and still is!) And feeling that the .45 was superior (and still do!) the 5906 was never carried and not even much range time. Back in the day it was the .45 Colt Commander and Colt Cobra as backup gun. With the snubby in a pocket or ankle holster.

Jump in my DeLorean and fast forward from 20th to the 21st Century and the desire to carry something small and powerful led to my purchase of the Kimber. The desire for a backup gun and wanting the lightest possible real gun, I went with the AirLite J frame and stepping up to .357 seemed like a good idea at the time. (now not so much).

It was the above two guns that allowed AISW carry. But the Kimber's cocked and locked condition never felt quite comfortable for me so the J frame became my primary weapon when carried AISW. In fact whatever is carried AISW is my primary weapon.

For me there is no more safe, secure, and fast to present, carry position. And next to a coat pocket gun, it's the most unobtrusive draw if you need it to be. Having a gun in hand is always the fastest presentation. With my situational awareness turned up to full condition orange I'll already have my weapon in my hand, not necessarily showing my hand, but ready to use once there is no other option.

I think it a combination of factors that have led to a resurgence of DA/SA autos (and I would add DAO autos as well as wheelguns). First there is also a resurgence of AISW carry. 1911's are scary and striker fired pistols are dangerous, two other factors pushing people to DA/SA autos. Also there is the desire for better guns. Sure the cheap plastic guns brought a lot of shooters into the field and now some for those shooters want better guns.

All of the above is what has led me back to the past and into third generation Smith and Wesson semi-autos. Once I discovered the single stack models I found pistols that fit my hand well. The fact that modern bullet design has brought the 9mm up to respectability allows me to feel good about carrying a 9mm or .38 spcl and not feel too underguned.

digiroc

... My 3913 however, I still carry off duty on a regular basis, ie.  it's the first one I grab going out the door...  I've had it and been carrying it for,  oh,  28 years now.

I have a couple of the 10mm's a 1006 (built on the same frame as your 4506) and a 1076 FBI gun. Also "boat anchors" to carry. Fun at the range though. All the "super nines" with double wide magazine wells are pretty fat and take getting used to. The single stacks however are the sweetest most well balanced strong and reliable pistols ever made. I've got a 3913NL and a 3914LS both with a slightly different dust cover, but essentially the same as your 3913.


3913NL (no logo, a LadySmith without tats)


3914LS LadySmith in black logo rolled on

All sweet to carry, light enough, accurate, reliable. All excellent triggers. What's not to like?

digiroc

You come around with too many nice pictures.  It doesn't help those of us who are trying to not add new guns in 2017.

I never thought you to be a fan of 3rd gen smiths, Kaso  .

I never thought you to be a fan of 3rd gen smiths, Kaso  .

I don't, though it is the same as smelling food when you are hungry.  You don't necessarily have to 'like' what you smell, but it still increases your appetite.

This is why I miss the old Model 457... Why oh why wasn't the 4503 or 4504 more of a think.  Lovely alloy frames...

The model 457 was part of the "value series" and still a great carry option for those looking for a compact, light .45 carry piece. The legendary S&W Performance Center built some awesome semi-autos that are much sought after today. The "Shorty" series, Shorty 9, Shorty Forty, and Shorty .45 are superb examples of design and craftsmanship that modern manufacturers are no longer capable of.

They featured a Briley spherical Titanium barrel bushings hand fitted to match grade barrels. Slide and frames that were also hand fitted and all the internal parts polished and honed to perfection. Here is an example of a Shorty .45 that I'm looking to add to my collection:



digiroc

Those S&W Autos were not the popular style, and at the time, the grips felt oddly to those of us used to others... So we didn't buy them.
This was an oversight based on peer pressure or popular media, and it's tragic. 
Those are actually damn fine handguns with quality easily on par with SIG SAUER.

Where is my Delorean?

George:
Totally on target.