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Weapons and Gear => Handguns => Topic started by: MTK20 on May 17, 2016, 01:47:49 pm

Title: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on May 17, 2016, 01:47:49 pm
Well, maybe not quite yet, but can we at least claim that collectively as a forum we saw this coming?

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/rise-fall-double-action-semi-auto/

http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why-switched-double-action/

https://youtu.be/IP8F_cwotM8


Quote
“[With] a trigger pull that is both longer and heavier than most other actions, there is far more tactile feedback that the trigger is being pulled in between the start of inadvertent unintentional movement and the Big Loud Noise. We’ve lost sight of this as a community with the prevalence of ever lighter and shorter striker fired action triggers and candidly I doubt we’ll see the pendulum swing back any time soon… The shooting community always blames the operator for every accident and never considers the role that equipment plays in making some guns more or less likely to facilitate those accidents.” - Todd Green

Quote taken from: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4212-General-Thoughts-on-DA-SA-Pistols&p=73009&viewfull=1#post73009

Just some points that made the author take a step back from striker fired guns (via the "why I switched" article):

1. If you use appendix carry, you have an extra layer of safety with the longer/heavier trigger pull.

2. If you train a lot, your gun comes in and out of your holster multiple times a session. Reholstering is one of the most dangerous things we do as shooters. Once again the longer trigger pull puts the odds in your favour.

3. Even the experts make mistakes. No explaining needed there.

4. Many striker fired triggers are just plain terrible. If you are particular about the triggers in your guns, which most of us are, then a sucky trigger can really take the fun out of shooting.
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So what do y'all say? Are tactical trends cyclical? Have the old hammer fired guns not sunset after all? Are we destined to go back to the glory days of people carrying wheelguns as the norm, dual model 29's and new york reload holsters? (Oh sorry, the last one was nostalgic projection on my part  :-[)

We have seemed to hit kind of a plateau with our current striker fired gun craze, surely someone will either re-recognise the merits of past designs or come up with some new hotness that will be all the rage. I'm eager to see what the future of handgunning has in store.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: JesseL on May 17, 2016, 02:45:39 pm
I don't buy the argument that a longer and or harder trigger pull will have a long term impact on the rate of negligent discharges. Plenty of people shot themselves by accident back when everyone carried double action revolvers.

There's the possibility that when someone (or some agency) switches from lighter/shorter triggers to longer/heavier ones they'll see a temporary reduction in negligent discharges while they adjust.

In the long term though, any trigger that's usable is going to be susceptible to being fired by accident when people get complacent about trigger discipline.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Kaso on May 17, 2016, 02:47:13 pm
So now we are going to say that NDs are no longer solely a result of operator error and violation of the Four Rules, but instead partially because of equipment?  I take exception to that.  There is nothing wrong with a DA trigger, but let us not embrace them as a substitute for trigger discipline.  For instance, how many cops (and others) who came up on revolvers had NDs with their brand-new Glocks?  Prior to light triggers, trigger discipline was just not stressed as it is today. 

As the one article says, DA/SA triggers also require familiarization training between the trigger pulls.  Not that difficult,  but also not possible for everyone, especially new shooters, or those on a prohibitive budget.  Experiences will vary, but I found the very first time I shot a Glock, I was shooting better than I ever had with a new pistol, and better overall than I ever had with all but a few.  I am not suggesting Glocks are for everyone, but I do think that the mid weight and consistent trigger was mostly responsible.

Everyone is going to have a different opinion, but for mine, I like having a consistent trigger pull.  Whether that is a DA revolver, a SAO pistol with a safety, or a Striker-Fired with or without. 

I suppose it amuses me how the above authors can recommend a DA/SA trigger to compensate for poor trigger discipline, but assume those same shooters who can't be bothered to master their trigger finger, are going to somehow master the transition between two different pulls.  You can't solve a training issue with better equipment.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: JesseL on May 17, 2016, 02:57:38 pm
^THAT^
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: katmandoo on May 17, 2016, 04:06:42 pm
+1 on Kaso
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: GeorgeHill on May 17, 2016, 09:20:21 pm

https://youtu.be/IP8F_cwotM8


I think he makes a great deal of sense, and I agree with him.
I've witnessed more than one ND... and in each case, the gun was a Striker.  Striker fired guns are unforgiving.  Hammers are Safer... They just are.  And the advantage DA/SA's have is the single action pulls are just flat out BETTER.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on May 17, 2016, 09:44:53 pm
I think he makes a great deal of sense, and I agree with him.
I've witnessed more than one ND... and in each case, the gun was a Striker.  Striker fired guns are unforgiving.  Hammers are Safer... They just are.  And the advantage DA/SA's have is the single action pulls are just flat out BETTER.


I like your reasoning. Now, granted, always keep your trigger finger off of the trigger, if you have an ND then it is still your responsibility, but that doesn't mean we have to make it easier for operator errors to occur. I do not personally use appendix carry or "tactical nutsack carry" as affectionately dubbed by some shooters  :facepalm, but if I did I would certainly give a hard look at something like a Sig or Beretta 92 as opposed to my Glock 19. The main reason I don't carry appendix is because I have yet to find a good holster for the task. I am sure they are out there, I just have yet to find them.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Kaso on May 17, 2016, 09:51:22 pm
And the advantage DA/SA's have is the single action pulls are just flat out BETTER.
Sure they are...  Yet, who thumb cocks that first shot in a stress situation?

I read something a while back, pretty sure it was you, that stated 'the average gunfight has one-point-(something) rounds fired.  What do they all have in common?  The 'one.' ' 

The first round being the most critical, I have yet to find a service grade auto with a DA trigger that I like.  (I found a .32 PPK once, that had a DA trigger I could keep on target, but a .32 hardly counts)  Seriously, find me an autoloader with a Good DA trigger.  Find me one that rivals a S&W wheelgun and I'll take that pistol in DAO.  Because a GOOD double action wheelgun is easier to make hits with than a Glock.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Kaso on May 17, 2016, 09:55:02 pm
The main reason I don't carry appendix is because I have yet to find a good holster for the task. I am sure they are out there, I just have yet to find them.
  I thought the main reason was to keep yourself attractive to all of those female nursing students.  :hmm  Pretty sure they won't be chasing after a castrato... :whistle
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on May 17, 2016, 09:56:01 pm
Sure they are...  Yet, who thumb cocks that first shot in a stress situation?

I read something a while back, pretty sure it was you, that stated 'the average gunfight has one-point-(something) rounds fired.  What do they all have in common?  The 'one.' ' 

The first round being the most critical, I have yet to find a service grade auto with a DA trigger that I like.  (I found a .32 PPK once, that had a DA trigger I could keep on target, but a .32 hardly counts)  Seriously, find me an autoloader with a Good DA trigger.  Find me one that rivals a S&W wheelgun and I'll take that pistol in DAO.  Because a GOOD double action wheelgun is easier to make hits with than a Glock.

You make some interesting points, Kaso.

bold/underline: I thought you said you very much liked the Sig P228, that it worked for you?

bold/italics: I find this to be a very interesting point. In my personal experience, I still need more rounds through revolvers before I can get as accurate as my Glock. I am actually quite envious that you can connect better with a good Smith & Wesson than a Glock.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on May 17, 2016, 10:01:38 pm
  I thought the main reason was to keep yourself attractive to all of those female nursing students.  :hmm  Pretty sure they won't be chasing after a castrato... :whistle

 :rotfl :rotfl :rotfl

Well played, sir  :thumbup1.
(http://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/slow_clap_vanderbeek.gif)

They can be quite tenacious at times.... Sadly  ::).
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Kaso on May 17, 2016, 10:10:57 pm
bold/underline: I thought you said you very much liked the Sig P228, that it worked for you?

bold/italics: I find this to be a very interesting point. In my personal experience, I still need more rounds through revolvers before I can get as accurate as my Glock. I am actually quite envious that you can connect better with a good Smith & Wesson than a Glock.
I liked the P228.  Good, solid gun.  We connected.  The DA pull was usable, but nothing special.  At least not that I remember, now four years later.

The Glock - and every other striker I have fired - has a 'jump,' right when the trigger disconnects and the striker releases.  This jerks the front sight either left or right.  Not a big deal when firing two handed, but it becomes noticeable single handed.  Revolvers...  Smiths, anyway... have a long, consistent pull.  No stacking.  Much easier to master.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on May 17, 2016, 10:20:06 pm
I liked the P228.  Good, solid gun.  We connected.  The DA pull was usable, but nothing special.  At least not that I remember, now four years later.

The Glock - and every other striker I have fired - has a 'jump,' right when the trigger disconnects and the striker releases.  This jerks the front sight either left or right.  Not a big deal when firing two handed, but it becomes noticeable single handed.  Revolvers...  Smiths, anyway... have a long, consistent pull.  No stacking.  Much easier to master.

Yes, George, you, myself and others have commented on this odd effect before. IIRC, my shots always pull slightly left with my Glocks. Regarding Smiths, my beloved carry piece (686+) was hitting low for some reason when I was at the range the other day (and I was doing some close range Mozambique drills). Also to add insult to injury, I am now having light primer strikes, so off to the Smith she goes.... Again  ::). I am so damn tired of packing this soulless yet effective plastic on my hip.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Kaso on May 17, 2016, 11:45:31 pm
Yes, George, you, myself and others have commented on this odd effect before. IIRC, my shots always pull slightly left with my Glocks.
Mine usually pulls right.  It all depends upon how much finger is on the trigger.  If I put significantly more or less, it will pull left.  There is one verrry small spot on my trigger finger 'pad' that when centered on the trigger, will pull directly to the rear with no jump.  But it is very small, and my instinctive grip when drawing does not put my finger in the right spot for it.  Believe me, I've tried learning it.

Regarding Smiths, my beloved carry piece (686+) was hitting low for some reason when I was at the range the other day (and I was doing some close range Mozambique drills). Also to add insult to injury, I am now having light primer strikes, so off to the Smith she goes.... Again  ::). I am so damn tired of packing this soulless yet effective plastic on my hip.
You just had a trigger job done, yes?  Send it back to the same guy - it needs a heavier hammer spring put in.  Hopefully he did more than just install a lighter spring...  :eh
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Grant on May 18, 2016, 12:17:46 am
I think he makes a great deal of sense, and I agree with him.
I've witnessed more than one ND... and in each case, the gun was a Striker.  Striker fired guns are unforgiving.  Hammers are Safer... They just are.  And the advantage DA/SA's have is the single action pulls are just flat out BETTER.


I agree with all points.   I've had experts say "Glocks are just as safe as a Sig/Beretta/etc.".....mechanically they are...yes.....the human operator? no.

     It's a matter of practice, and what tradeoffs you want.

  I've practiced enough with my Beretta 92 that My first round DA shots are in the exact same group as the followup SA shots.   I've also put MANY more rounds than most people would through it along with THOUSANDS of dryfire practice. 

  I've practiced with striker fire....between my Ruger SR's, dad's SR and dad's XD I've used I have probably......4? thousands rounds through them......I can NOT like a striker trigger.  I much prefer and seem to shoot a heavy DA trigger much better. 
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on May 18, 2016, 12:40:03 am
Mine usually pulls right.  It all depends upon how much finger is on the trigger.  If I put significantly more or less, it will pull left.  There is one verrry small spot on my trigger finger 'pad' that when centered on the trigger, will pull directly to the rear with no jump.  But it is very small, and my instinctive grip when drawing does not put my finger in the right spot for it.  Believe me, I've tried learning it.
 You just had a trigger job done, yes?  Send it back to the same guy - it needs a heavier hammer spring put in.  Hopefully he did more than just install a lighter spring...  :eh

Yeah, the same guy is getting it again, with the stock spring.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Kaso on May 18, 2016, 12:58:16 am
Yeah, the same guy is getting it again, with the stock spring.
Are you saying he is putting the stock spring back in, or that it is in now?
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Plebian on May 18, 2016, 03:13:17 am
Another huge positive in the DA/SA guns favor is the hammer. You can set a thumb on that hammer as you reholster. So any movement of that hammer is an instant sign something is wrong. It is one of the things I miss the most once I transitioned to Glock and S&W M&P from the Beretta.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on May 18, 2016, 03:24:45 am
Are you saying he is putting the stock spring back in, or that it is in now?

Putting the stock spring back in. It currently has a Brownells spring in it (I previously was mistaken and thought it was a Wolff spring). Mind you not much has been transparent, considering this trigger job was meant as a birthday present.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: mattitude on May 18, 2016, 12:16:26 pm
Check your strain screw (the small screw on the lower front part of the grip) as they can loosen up and cause light strikes.  Even if you can get a quarter of a turn it could be enough to get positive ignition.

Putting the stock spring back in. It currently has a Brownells spring in it (I previously was mistaken and thought it was a Wolff spring). Mind you not much has been transparent, considering this trigger job was meant as a birthday present.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: GeorgeHill on May 18, 2016, 01:09:04 pm
Sure they are...  Yet, who thumb cocks that first shot in a stress situation?

I have.  Yes.  Because that's how I practice... so that's what I did.

(Mountain Lions in Utah - Twice)
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: GeorgeHill on May 18, 2016, 01:14:31 pm
I like your reasoning. Now, granted, always keep your trigger finger off of the trigger...
But unlike the DA guns, Strikers are Unforgiving of mistakes or foreign objects that might unwittingly find their way into the trigger guard.  I wont bother pulling up the videos from YouTube and other sources showing this happening or the results.  The guy with the old holster that sat down in his car, the guy that leaned up against the counter in McDonalds.  The cop at the gunstore that checked his carry gun against the size of the gun he was looking at and then reholstered... and then there is the famous "I'm the only one professional enough in this room"...
Discuss Training all you want - but these things HAPPEN.
They happen a lot less with DA guns.  And with a Hammer, you can put your thumb on the hammer and you can feel it move if something is amiss.  With a Striker, you only hear the Bang to tell you something was wrong.
Mechanically they are all pretty much all SAFE as they can get.  But DA guns help dampen the Human Error.  It's the Human Error that is the problem, of course.  But the DA trigger pull is far more forgiving of Human Error.  Of course ND's can still happen... They just happen a lot less with DA guns.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on May 18, 2016, 03:36:00 pm
George put it best on the unforgiving front, AND on the thumb cocking training.

Kaso, you mention "who thumb cocks in a high stress situation" but in THAT instance, we're talking quick draw. And a quick draw is no substitute for situational awareness and the advantage that is having your weapon drawn and discretely at the ready.

Ironically, those who do excell at fast stress draw do their best with the good ol' Colt 1873... which has to be thumb-cocked for every single shot.

Just some devil's advocate in that regard.

Also, mastering the "crunch-tick" is something that is truly, to me, much ado about nothing.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on May 18, 2016, 03:54:26 pm
Forgive me, but "crunch-tick"?
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on May 18, 2016, 04:04:44 pm
Forgive me, but "crunch-tick"?

Colonel Jeff Cooper described the DA/SA transition as crunch for the first part, and a quick tick for the second. He also called such autos "Crunchentickers."
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on May 18, 2016, 04:15:56 pm
Colonel Jeff Cooper described the DA/SA transition as crunch for the first part, and a quick tick for the second. He also called such autos "Crunchentickers."

Oh, ok! I never read that from him.

My gun knowledge of Cooper are that he loved 1911's, the CZ75, thought the Glock was not all that awesome, and the Colt Python was a good revolver.

That's all I know for his preferences.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: coelacanth on May 21, 2016, 12:32:19 am
Actually, I have not developed a preference for any of the striker fired pistols over the older designs.  My primary experience has been with the Springfield Armory XD series and the odd Glock here and there at the AZGO shoots.  They are OK but I agree that the triggers are not particularly good.  Seems to me that their main advantage is that they can be made light and small and cheap.  In terms of function I still prefer a good 1911 design or a double action revolver.    :shrug
Title: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: coyotesfan97 on May 23, 2016, 01:44:32 pm
I've carried DA revolvers, DA/SA SIGs, Glocks, and my TRP 1911 as duty guns. When I went through the academy 28 years ago they stressed finger straight on the frame with DA revolvers and being aware of foreign objects that might get in your trigger guard when you're reholstering. They also taught keeping your thumb on the hammer when you're holstering. There were plenty of NDs back in the day when DA revolvers were commonly carried. A lot of them were from thumb breaks getting into the trigger guard when the pistol was pushed down into the holster. They trained us to avoid that too. We also trained and were allowed to cock the hammer 25+ yard shots. From the draw it was pretty quick to cock the hammer and fire. From ready gun it was quicker.

Interestingly that striker fired pistols (M&Ps) got a bad rap for NDs when LASD transitioned to them from 92s. Then when you look into it it was a training issue where they were teaching to start the trigger pull before you made the decision to fire because of the long pull of the DA. you might be able to get at with that with DA but not a safe action striker.

Our legal department made us go to either DAO semi autos or Striker fired pistols because of the transition between double and single fire. If they hadn't I probably would never have gone away from SIGs.

I have a Gadget developed by TLG and Tom Jones on order to try on one of my Glocks. It replaces the plate on the rear of the frame. You push on it with your thumb and it disconnects the trigger. If you're trained to put your thumb on the hammer the Gadget is for you. It's been extensively tested by beta users on PF. 

It doesn't hurt to take a moment to glance at your holster to make sure nothing like a jacket string is there. You don't need to "speed holster" either.

ETA if I decide to stop carrying my 1911 I'll go back to my issue Glock. I won't buy a DAO semi auto to carry. I wouldn't mind going back to a DA/SA 228.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: steveracer on May 24, 2016, 06:11:14 am
We are trained to place the thumb over the hammer on reholstering. Safety on to lower the hammer, safety off, thumb cover, holster. This with the M9. Since we started doing that, incidents of negligent discharge have been greatly reduced. Now all the NDs seem to be at the clearing barrel, mostly folks touching the trigger while chambering.
I have seen MANY people ND with Glocks and M&Ps. In four cases, with serious (non life threatening) injuries. I would NEVER carry a striker fired pistol in appendix position, and prefer a revolver for that type of carry if possible.
I love the M9, and will keep using them till I am no longer allowed to, which I do not see as likely any time soon.
If I could shoot a SIG without riding the slide stop with my thumb (and therefore inducing a 'failure to slide lock on empty mag' each time) I would carry an M-11.
Title: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos and Resurrection of this Topic ...
Post by: digiroc on January 26, 2017, 01:18:17 pm
As a new member who has been perusing older threads for interesting topics I'm bringing this one back rather than starting a new topic. I elected to bring the entire thread back since there are so many good and thoughtful posts. I thought I'd just add my comments.

The plastic fantastic pistol (and even revolver!) tide swept away the production of quality all metal guns the popular DA/SA semi-autos pioneered by Smith & Wesson with the model 39 single stack and then the model 59 double stack. These first DA/SA pistols from S&W evolved through three generations with improvements along the way that in the third generation they attained the nearly perfect all metal, hammer fired pistol design.

(http://i.imgur.com/Pg7P1eH.jpg)
Smith & Wesson "Shorty Forty"

Production costs for these weapons priced them so high compared to the mass produced, plastic, striker fired, designs. Even Smith and Wesson ultimatly caved in and created (or copied from Glock) plastic, striker fired pistols.

Safety-less striker fired pistol popularity, and growth of new shooters using them, has led to many negligent discharges - often with self inflicted wounds, some collateral damage (friendly fire?), and I'm sure a few fatalities. This problem with unexpected firing and the desire to appendix carry inside the waistband, with the muzzle pointed either at the family jewels or worse yet, the femoral artery are all factors in the resurgence of DA/SA activation popularity. Anybody jamming a striker fired pistol into their pants has not thought it through, or looked at the statistics.

As a person who has a strong preference for AISW carry for a number of reasons; easy and fast presentation whether standing, seated, or belted into a vehicle, the AISW carry with a suitable firearm is convenient and comfortable. It also offers superior retention and weapon protection during carry. For all those reasons and a personal distaste for striker fired pistols, not only for their often called "squishy" triggers with the activation blade as a trigger safety but mostly from the long held belief that plastic is best for squirt guns I never have and never will own one.

(http://i.imgur.com/vFGQHFs.jpg)
Glock 43

I've had an upbringing on the 1911 pattern handgun and am well aware of the joys of a finely tuned single action trigger pull. Cocked and locked has always been more than somewhat a concern when carrying AISW. Just a little unnerving to see that hammer back with the muzzle aimed right at my crotch. About 25 years ago I acquired my first DA/SA and my first S&W pistol a model 5906. All stainless steel construction and when when loaded to it's 18 round capacity it weighed in at 43 ounces. Pretty heavy for all day carry.

(http://i.imgur.com/toZtLv2.jpg)
Kimber Custom Shop Ultra CDP II

The Smith and Wesson DA/SA design allows the hammer to be de-cocked and trigger deactivated with a slide mounted lever. In this configuration the weapon is very 1911 like in bringing it to bear. The difference being flicking the safety/ decocker of the S&W design up instead of down as on the 1911 and of course the double action first pull of the Smith design.

Over time I acquired several other third generation Smiths, most better suited to concealed carry, and specifically AISW carry. Carrying a DA/SA pistol is not a resurgence for me, more of a continuing practice. Once holstered I put the safety off ready to fire in double action. I consider this a safe as my revolvers.

My main carry gun is a five shot J frame revolver in AISW carry. Backup to that for a NY reload is one of my 3rg gen Smiths. I have a 3913NL and 1914LS that are both very compact and thin, being single stack. My favorite carry is my 4040PD, I like the speed, size, and weight of the .40S&W (short and weak my arse) When I want very thin and light I go with my 3914DAO

(http://i.imgur.com/CVu632v.jpg)
3914DAO w/ Big Dot night sights

I have recently been acquiring straight DAO pistols, giving me a very similar trigger pull as my DA revolvers. Shooting double action only pistols and revolvers have made me a better shooter. Having to master the longer trigger pull and later break of these pistols has even made me better with my DA/SA pistols. Cultivating the ability to hold on target throughout the DA cycle helps you with the trigger control of all the weapons you shoot.

digiroc







Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on January 26, 2017, 01:43:51 pm
This is the kind of post that I like to see bring back an old thread, there is so much info here  :thumbup1.

You've peaked my curiosity, however, how did the era of revolvers also detract from the DA/SA auto pistol?

I have a family member who acquired a Smith model 59. I enjoyed the look and feel of it so much that I made an oold thread a long time ago about why exactly did the 3rd gen smiths die out? Very interesting guns. It seems the closest thing we have now days is the lion heart pistol.

Thanks for sharing!  :cool
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: digiroc on January 26, 2017, 06:32:54 pm
... how did the era of revolvers also detract from the DA/SA auto pistol? ...  why exactly did the 3rd gen smiths die out? Very interesting guns...

After the advent of cheap plastic guns most weapons manufacturers gave up making quality all metal construction guns to be price competitive with the Glocks of the World. A shame really because there is really no heirloom quality to a plastic gun. Also I don't believe it is possible go make a striker fired pistol with the trigger feel of a hammer fired weapon.

All of my third generation S&W semi-autos have superior triggers to striker fired pistols. Those that come from the S&W Performance Center or that have had trigger work done on them feel very much like my Smith and Wesson revolvers. I collect them because I think they represent the pinnacle of pistol development. The best pistols ever made. (sorry 1911 fans).

The era of revolvers is still with us and modern DA/SA (revolvers with exposed hammers) or DAO (revolvers with shrouded hammers) i.e. S&W Centennial style revolvers. I don't believe that revolvers detract from DA capable pistols, if anything shooters like myself who still carry revolvers, mostly nowadays as backup guns, benefit from identical manual of arms. Namely just pull the trigger and it goes bang, no other operations needed. As I mentioned I've even gone to carrying semi-autos that are DAO just to not have to ever worry that the safety has been inadvertently engaged.

(http://i.imgur.com/Yx0WHvS.jpg)
Smith & Wesson model 6946 DAO

Just ask yourself how many times you have seen the "flinch test" of a shooter forgetting to take the safety of at the range. I know I've done it dozens, if not hundreds, of times myself. Just imagine that happening in an actual gunfight.

digiroc
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: digiroc on January 26, 2017, 07:17:16 pm
... I have a family member who acquired a Smith model 59. I enjoyed the look and feel of it...

I enjoy the look and feel of my Model 59 as well. As the first of the double stack "wonder nines" it set the standard for semi-auto pistols to come:

(http://i.imgur.com/oxblq9H.png)

This first generation model 59 has Buffalo Horn period correct grips. I think it compliments the shininess of the blued slide, not found in later generations. Delivered with 15 round magazines 17 and even a 20 rounder were available.

digiroc
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos and Resurrection of this Topic ...
Post by: MTK20 on January 26, 2017, 07:48:35 pm

The plastic fantastic pistol (and even revolver!) tide swept away the production of quality all metal guns the popular DA/SA semi-autos pioneered by Smith & Wesson with the model 39 single stack and then the model 59 double stack. These first DA/SA pistols from S&W evolved through three generations with improvements along the way that in the third generation they attained the nearly perfect all metal, hammer fired pistol design.

"Detract" was the wrong word, I was referring to this part of the quote. How did revolver production sweep away DA/SA production?

And very nice gun btw  :thumbup1. My relative's has black plastic grips and is a silvery, almost chrome looking finish.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Kaso on January 26, 2017, 11:47:37 pm
I enjoy the look and feel of my Model 59 as well. As the first of the double stack "wonder nines" it set the standard for semi-auto pistols to come:

Interesting.  I never knew that they were the first ones to kick off the wonder nine craze. :hmm
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: sqlbullet on January 27, 2017, 09:54:01 am
"Detract" was the wrong word, I was referring to this part of the quote. How did revolver production sweep away DA/SA production?

And very nice gun btw  :thumbup1. My relative's has black plastic grips and is a silvery, almost chrome looking finish.

I think he is adding emphasis to the plastic revolution by saying even some revolver designs use a plastic frame, not that revolvers swept away DA/SA autos.
Title: Rant against cheap plastic guns ...
Post by: digiroc on January 27, 2017, 09:55:38 am
"Detract" was the wrong word, I was referring to this part of the quote. How did revolver production sweep away DA/SA production?

And very nice gun btw  :thumbup1. My relative's has black plastic grips and is a silvery, almost chrome looking finish.

What I was actually referring to was the market takeover by the polymer framed handguns, primarily by Glock, although they were not the first to build a polymer framed semi-automatic pistol, that abomination er, credit goes to Heckler and Koch with it's VP70.

My addition of "and even revolvers!" was that the polymer craze also extends to wheelguns. I get it that the use of "plastic" in handguns usually results in a weapon that weighs less. In the case of carry, lighter is better, shooting not so much. In concealed carry smaller is better too.

Here is my 360PD all metal, (Scandium and Titanium). Light yet strong, small but powerful. No plastic needed.

(http://i.imgur.com/01h6qx5.jpg)
Less than a pound holstered and loaded.

So I guess with regard to the resurgence of DA/SA, which I extended to DAO pistols and revolvers, it's going back to what is superior after taking a shower in the marketing Kool Aid for the cheaper and more available plastic fantastics.

I guess I'm just ranting about the use of polymers for low cost manufacturing as a triumphant win for the bean counters over the more costly CNC machining of all metal construction. Satisfied polymer pistol owners just ignore me.

digiroc



 


Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: GeorgeHill on January 27, 2017, 10:00:52 am
Those S&W Autos were not the popular style, and at the time, the grips felt oddly to those of us used to others... So we didn't buy them.
This was an oversight based on peer pressure or popular media, and it's tragic. 
Those are actually damn fine handguns with quality easily on par with SIG SAUER.

Where is my Delorean?
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: RMc on January 27, 2017, 11:52:55 am
In the golden era of revolvers, I believe the primary cause of unintentional discharge was the act of lowering a cocked hammer.  Part of that was due to the hammer mounted firing pin, which made placing thumb or finger between hammer and frame problematic. 

The Ruger Security Six series and the Colt Mark III series were the first revolvers in widespread LE use with frame mounted firing pins. On these and the current generation of S&W DA revolvers, a thumb can be easily placed between the hammer and firing pin when the trigger is pulled lower the hammer. Once the hammer is started forward and the trigger finger is outside of the trigger guard,  lowering the hammer the rest of the way is completely safe due to the transfer bar or hammer block system.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: digiroc on January 27, 2017, 04:04:45 pm
Those S&W Autos were not the popular style, and at the time, the grips felt oddly to those of us used to others... So we didn't buy them.
This was an oversight based on peer pressure or popular media, and it's tragic. 
Those are actually damn fine handguns with quality easily on par with SIG SAUER.

Where is my Delorean?

Quoted in entirety for truth.  When I bought my model 5906, an all stainless 15+1 "super nine" it was considered even by me as weak and fat in hand. I was used to the 1911 pattern that was popular at the time (and still is!) And feeling that the .45 was superior (and still do!) the 5906 was never carried and not even much range time. Back in the day it was the .45 Colt Commander and Colt Cobra as backup gun. With the snubby in a pocket or ankle holster.

Jump in my DeLorean and fast forward from 20th to the 21st Century and the desire to carry something small and powerful led to my purchase of the Kimber. The desire for a backup gun and wanting the lightest possible real gun, I went with the AirLite J frame and stepping up to .357 seemed like a good idea at the time. (now not so much).

It was the above two guns that allowed AISW carry. But the Kimber's cocked and locked condition never felt quite comfortable for me so the J frame became my primary weapon when carried AISW. In fact whatever is carried AISW is my primary weapon.

For me there is no more safe, secure, and fast to present, carry position. And next to a coat pocket gun, it's the most unobtrusive draw if you need it to be. Having a gun in hand is always the fastest presentation. With my situational awareness turned up to full condition orange I'll already have my weapon in my hand, not necessarily showing my hand, but ready to use once there is no other option.

I think it a combination of factors that have led to a resurgence of DA/SA autos (and I would add DAO autos as well as wheelguns). First there is also a resurgence of AISW carry. 1911's are scary and striker fired pistols are dangerous, two other factors pushing people to DA/SA autos. Also there is the desire for better guns. Sure the cheap plastic guns brought a lot of shooters into the field and now some for those shooters want better guns.

All of the above is what has led me back to the past and into third generation Smith and Wesson semi-autos. Once I discovered the single stack models I found pistols that fit my hand well. The fact that modern bullet design has brought the 9mm up to respectability allows me to feel good about carrying a 9mm or .38 spcl and not feel too underguned.

digiroc



Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Chief45 on January 27, 2017, 04:59:15 pm
I had a couple of the 45 boat anchors, a 645 and a 4506.   meh.   
a couple of the 9's.   the 5904 was, well,  ok.   
My 3913 however, I still carry off duty on a regular basis, ie.  it's the first one I grab going out the door.
I like my 3913.  I've had it and been carrying it for,  oh,  28 years now.





Those S&W Autos were not the popular style, and at the time, the grips felt oddly to those of us used to others... So we didn't buy them.
This was an oversight based on peer pressure or popular media, and it's tragic. 
Those are actually damn fine handguns with quality easily on par with SIG SAUER.

Where is my Delorean?
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: digiroc on January 27, 2017, 05:58:01 pm
... My 3913 however, I still carry off duty on a regular basis, ie.  it's the first one I grab going out the door...  I've had it and been carrying it for,  oh,  28 years now.

I have a couple of the 10mm's a 1006 (built on the same frame as your 4506) and a 1076 FBI gun. Also "boat anchors" to carry. Fun at the range though. All the "super nines" with double wide magazine wells are pretty fat and take getting used to. The single stacks however are the sweetest most well balanced strong and reliable pistols ever made. I've got a 3913NL and a 3914LS both with a slightly different dust cover, but essentially the same as your 3913.

(http://i.imgur.com/YUcIVcR.jpg)
3913NL (no logo, a LadySmith without tats)

(http://i.imgur.com/RlsFmsk.jpg)
3914LS LadySmith in black logo rolled on

All sweet to carry, light enough, accurate, reliable. All excellent triggers. What's not to like?

digiroc


Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Kaso on January 27, 2017, 07:05:37 pm

(http://i.imgur.com/YUcIVcR.jpg)
3913NL (no logo, a LadySmith without tats)

You come around with too many nice pictures.  It doesn't help those of us who are trying to not add new guns in 2017. :bash

:thumbup1
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on January 27, 2017, 07:08:25 pm
You come around with too many nice pictures.  It doesn't help those of us who are trying to not add new guns in 2017. :bash

:thumbup1

I never thought you to be a fan of 3rd gen smiths, Kaso  ;).
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 27, 2017, 07:24:40 pm
I had a couple of the 45 boat anchors, a 645 and a 4506.   meh.   
a couple of the 9's.   the 5904 was, well,  ok.   
My 3913 however, I still carry off duty on a regular basis, ie.  it's the first one I grab going out the door.
I like my 3913.  I've had it and been carrying it for,  oh,  28 years now.

This is why I miss the old Model 457.  NICE alloy frame, but still giving you a bunch of .45's in the magazine.

Why oh why wasn't the 4503 or 4504 more of a think.  Lovely alloy frames...
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Kaso on January 27, 2017, 08:02:35 pm
I never thought you to be a fan of 3rd gen smiths, Kaso  ;).
I don't, though it is the same as smelling food when you are hungry.  You don't necessarily have to 'like' what you smell, but it still increases your appetite.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on January 27, 2017, 08:27:47 pm
I don't, though it is the same as smelling food when you are hungry.  You don't necessarily have to 'like' what you smell, but it still increases your appetite.

 :facepalm

 :rotfl Fair enough.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: digiroc on February 01, 2017, 05:47:40 am
This is why I miss the old Model 457... Why oh why wasn't the 4503 or 4504 more of a think.  Lovely alloy frames...

The model 457 was part of the "value series" and still a great carry option for those looking for a compact, light .45 carry piece. The legendary S&W Performance Center built some awesome semi-autos that are much sought after today. The "Shorty" series, Shorty 9, Shorty Forty, and Shorty .45 are superb examples of design and craftsmanship that modern manufacturers are no longer capable of.

They featured a Briley spherical Titanium barrel bushings hand fitted to match grade barrels. Slide and frames that were also hand fitted and all the internal parts polished and honed to perfection. Here is an example of a Shorty .45 that I'm looking to add to my collection:

(http://i.imgur.com/apcYXVf.jpg)

digiroc
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: coelacanth on February 05, 2017, 07:27:35 pm
I think I've even seen some of those with the frame drilled and tapped for an add on accessory rail underneath if I recall correctly.   :hmm
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: RMc on February 05, 2017, 07:48:52 pm
Those S&W Autos were not the popular style, and at the time, the grips felt oddly to those of us used to others... So we didn't buy them.
This was an oversight based on peer pressure or popular media, and it's tragic. 
Those are actually damn fine handguns with quality easily on par with SIG SAUER.

Where is my Delorean?

George:
Totally on target.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: RMc on April 29, 2017, 05:21:39 pm
But unlike the DA guns, Strikers are Unforgiving of mistakes or foreign objects that might unwittingly find their way into the trigger guard.  I wont bother pulling up the videos from YouTube and other sources showing this happening or the results.  The guy with the old holster that sat down in his car, the guy that leaned up against the counter in McDonalds.  The cop at the gunstore that checked his carry gun against the size of the gun he was looking at and then reholstered... and then there is the famous "I'm the only one professional enough in this room"...
Discuss Training all you want - but these things HAPPEN.
They happen a lot less with DA guns.  And with a Hammer, you can put your thumb on the hammer and you can feel it move if something is amiss.  With a Striker, you only hear the Bang to tell you something was wrong.
Mechanically they are all pretty much all SAFE as they can get.  But DA guns help dampen the Human Error.  It's the Human Error that is the problem, of course.  But the DA trigger pull is far more forgiving of Human Error.  Of course ND's can still happen... They just happen a lot less with DA guns.

George,

Apparently there is enough interest in DA/SA autoloaders for Springfield Armory to bring out a polymer frame version:

http://www.springfield-armory.com/xde-series/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsMRHBXD5U0


Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on April 29, 2017, 05:36:31 pm
George,

Apparently there is enough interest in DA/SA autoloaders for Springfield Armory to bring out a polymer frame version:

http://www.springfield-armory.com/xde-series/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsMRHBXD5U0

 :o

Never in my life have I wanted a XD before! I need to hold one of these to see if I like it, but Springfield may have filled the niche of a modern production DA/SA firearm that is ultimately concealable. This might have to be on the "want list". I'm also pretty happy with the capacity of 8 +1 for a single stack. Not bad.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: RMc on April 29, 2017, 05:46:37 pm
Frankly, I think a decock only version would be the superior choice.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on April 29, 2017, 05:56:42 pm
It is, isn't it? I looked on the website and at the commercial and didn't see a safety.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Raptor on April 29, 2017, 06:00:23 pm
Looks like it has a safety and a decocker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgEmrWyetPQ&t=0s
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: RMc on April 29, 2017, 06:15:09 pm
Indeed so, the XD-E can be carried hammer down safety off, hammer down safety on or cocked and locked!
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: MTK20 on April 29, 2017, 06:51:53 pm
Ah fluff  :doh. So close, Springfield. So close.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: RMc on April 29, 2017, 08:51:47 pm
Ah fluff  :doh. So close, Springfield. So close.

Indeed, too many carry options.  Keep it simple.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: coelacanth on April 30, 2017, 12:45:09 am
So they re-invented the SIG?     :hmm   
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Raptor on April 30, 2017, 12:48:22 am
More like aped the H&K USP or the Beretta Cheetah, depending on which way you have to push the safety to activate the decocker.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: RMc on April 30, 2017, 01:47:54 pm
The XD-E safety appears to be identical in function to the Taurus PT92, up to safe, down to fire or further down to de-cock.

The safety position can be engaged with the hammer down or cocked.
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: bignate88 on May 02, 2017, 08:34:20 am
Maybe it is because im a Illinois resident even of i was interested in a SA/DA gun i couldn't in good conscience buy anything Springfield makes 

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Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: Kaso on May 02, 2017, 09:05:26 am
Maybe it is because I'm an Illinois resident even of I was interested in a SA/DA gun I couldn't in good conscience buy anything Springfield makes 
:hmm Why is that?
Title: Re: The Resurgence of DA/SA Autos.
Post by: bignate88 on May 02, 2017, 09:15:22 am
Basically Springfield armory and rock river arms droped opposition to a Illinois bill that would create a state of Illinois ffl that all gun dealers would have to obtain in addition to the federal ffl as well as limiting the ability of a gun shop to sell more then 7 guns a year to a individual in exchange for immunity from the bill. They claim that they knew nothing about the exemption and it was a state level lobbying group that made the deal. I consider that highly unlikely because the main board members have worked or currently work for Springfield or R.R.A and they are the biggest names in the organization

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