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Author Topic: So...does everyone hate .40 now?  (Read 36494 times)

only1asterisk

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Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
« Reply #125 on: October 23, 2015, 03:51:59 pm »
If .10" bullet diameter doesn't matter it follows that the .25 ACP should be every bit as effective as a 9mm.

Since this isn't the case, there has to something else at work.  I propose that it is logarithmic scale based on the contact face of the expanded bullet.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 04:30:34 pm by only1asterisk »

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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #126 on: October 23, 2015, 04:01:17 pm »
    Yes. The velocity and projectile mass. These factors are independent of bore diameter.

    If you made a twenty-five caliber round that pushed a bullet the same weight and velocity as a 9mm, then it'd perform about the same.

    A bigger bullet might knick something that a smaller one would have missed, but I don't know how likely that is. Too many variables.

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #127 on: October 23, 2015, 04:25:07 pm »
    My view of the whole thing about FBI change, is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  I'm not aware of any valid reason to go back to 9mm and consider the data they employed to be marginal at best.

    The FBI's decision to move away from the 10mm was the end of them using the valid reasons in their sidearm decisions.  Maybe sooner.

    And I am not being the 10mm douche here.  It was the right decision.  They were already shooting 40 S&W loads, just from 10mm cartridges.  But they used the excuse that excessive recoil was the issue.  Lets see...Same bullet, same velocity, smaller lighter gun.  That is more recoil, not less.


    If you made a twenty-five caliber round that pushed a bullet the same weight and velocity as a 9mm, then it'd perform about the same.

    I bet a 125 grain .251 bullet at 1200 fps would penetrate worlds farther than a 9mm 125 at the same speed.  You would need a 250 grain 9mm bullet to get the same sectional density.  A 62 grain JHP "25 Super" running 1300 fps would give you a pretty fair comparison.
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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #128 on: October 23, 2015, 04:49:20 pm »
    Terminal ballistics are weird. We've got a few rules of thumb that have limited application and that's about as scientific as we've managed to be.

    Imagine two projectiles. Both travel 300 fps (fairly slow by firearm standards). One weighs 620 grains, the other 400. Both are routinely fired at living targets. What effects does each have?

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    MTK20

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #129 on: October 23, 2015, 05:28:39 pm »
    Terminal ballistics are weird. We've got a few rules of thumb that have limited application and that's about as scientific as we've managed to be.

    Imagine two projectiles. Both travel 300 fps (fairly slow by firearm standards). One weighs 620 grains, the other 400. Both are routinely fired at living targets. What effects does each have?

    Spoiler (click to show/hide)

    But the bean bag isn't sharp  :P.
    Texas
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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #130 on: October 23, 2015, 05:58:56 pm »
    But the bean bag isn't sharp  :P.

    Neither are most handgun rounds. And if they were they probably wouldn't work quite as well.

    s___'s a lot more complicated than mass and velocity.
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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #131 on: October 23, 2015, 06:40:28 pm »
    Neither are most handgun rounds. And if they were they probably wouldn't work quite as well.

    s___'s a lot more complicated than mass and velocity.

    That's what she said! :hide
    ---------------

    I wonder how a "pointier" edge would effect a handgun round  :hmm. Surely someone has tried it before.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #132 on: October 23, 2015, 06:46:25 pm »
    We have tried the pointier edge.  On NATO 9mm ball.  Which goes through like an icepick, making SMALLER than 9mm wound channels in elastic stuff like human meat.
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    only1asterisk

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #133 on: October 23, 2015, 06:52:20 pm »
    We have tried the pointier edge.  On NATO 9mm ball.  Which goes through like an icepick, making SMALLER than 9mm wound channels in elastic stuff like human meat.

    Improved armor penetration traded for reduced wounding performance.

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #134 on: October 23, 2015, 06:57:14 pm »
    That's what she said! :hide
    ---------------

    I wonder how a "pointier" edge would effect a handgun round  :hmm. Surely someone has tried it before.

    That's a wadcutter, or maybe a hollowpoint that doesn't expand. It makes a nice hole the diameter of the meplat and definitely works better than a round nose.

    I shot a javelina once with a 9mm 147gr Winchester White Box JHP. Judging by the wound channel and the complete penetration, it didn't expand. It did make a nice hole that bored straight through a lung, the liver, and the spine. Piggy was dead right there.
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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #135 on: October 23, 2015, 07:01:58 pm »
    That's a wadcutter, or maybe a hollowpoint that doesn't expand. It makes a nice hole the diameter of the meplat and definitely works better than a round nose.

    I shot a javelina once with a 9mm 147gr Winchester White Box JHP. Judging by the wound channel and the complete penetration, it didn't expand. It did make a nice hole that bored straight through a lung, the liver, and the spine. Piggy was dead right there.

    That's actually really impressive. To my understanding, Javelinas can be quite resilient. Either the marksman was very skilled, or that's a round design you could even trust to bring down squirrel  ;).
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #136 on: October 23, 2015, 07:11:39 pm »
    That's actually really impressive. To my understanding, Javelinas can be quite resilient. Either the marksman was very skilled, or that's a round design you could even trust to bring down squirrel  ;).

    The marksman was a little freaked out and just hoping to hit center mass.

    Squirrels... I think they're like zombies. They need a head shot to reliably take them down, regardless of what you're shooting.
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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #137 on: October 23, 2015, 08:49:02 pm »
    Flat meplat rounds stop animals far better than they should for their weight and size in my experience.

    I assume it may use secondary material to increase the damage, OR maybe it doesn't let vital components 'slide' out of the way on its trajectory through the body.

    I just know that Elmer Keith guy might have been on to something with non-expanding projectiles at typical handgun velocities.
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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #138 on: October 23, 2015, 09:03:37 pm »
      Did someone say Wide Flat Meat Plate?
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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #139 on: October 23, 2015, 10:46:43 pm »
      Did someone say Wide Flat Meat Plate?


     :o

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    I used to have to make that exact tray (or else pretty dang close) back when I worked at the supermarket.
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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #140 on: October 23, 2015, 11:39:59 pm »
    wish I had some ballistic gel to test flatnose vs hollow point.
    I even have some WIN1911 flatpoint target loads left.
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    MTK20

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #141 on: October 24, 2015, 12:09:05 am »
    :o

    Oh. Emm. Gee.

    I used to have to make that exact tray (or else pretty dang close) back when I worked at the supermarket.

    Were they as good as they look? That thing looks delicious :popcorn :beer :drool .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #142 on: October 24, 2015, 12:13:47 am »
    Were they as good as they look? That thing looks delicious opcorn :beer :drool .
    I assume so; never ordered one myself. But our Italian section was good quality stuff, so I would say yes, they were. Though at $110 each IIRC, we didn't sell them that often. Supermarket catering trays are a rip-off.

    [/thread drift]

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #143 on: November 12, 2015, 08:42:06 pm »
    All this internet talk has brought out an unknown hipster part of me. I want to buy another 40 cal. Might just make it an HK and make some forums howl


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    MTK20

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #144 on: November 12, 2015, 08:44:19 pm »
    The part about making it an H unt K was too far...
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #145 on: November 12, 2015, 08:48:40 pm »
    The part about making it an H unt K was too far...
    Well, he has to do SOMETHING with all the money he's saved on those two Ruger revolvers, no?   :cool
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    MTK20

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #146 on: November 12, 2015, 08:56:54 pm »
    Well, he has to do SOMETHING with all the money he's saved on those two Ruger revolvers, no?   :cool

    Rub it in...  :neener

    Man, it's a funny feeling, but some days I wake up and wish I just had heaps of money  ::).
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #147 on: November 13, 2015, 02:22:16 am »
    Man, it's a funny feeling, but some days I wake up and wish I just had heaps of money  ::).

    If you really think about it, and are honest, that "some days" should probably be "every day".
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    GaBoy45

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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #148 on: November 13, 2015, 10:31:19 am »
    Its the only good part about our agency being short...unlimited OT. That and a wife who says OT and part time work is my money to do as I see fit. Though the majority goes to savings and paying off the car loan 2 years early. But it's still good to have the gun fund envelope fill up pretty regularly.


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    Re: So...does everyone hate .40 now?
    « Reply #149 on: November 13, 2015, 07:43:50 pm »
     :thumbup1
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