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Author Topic: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering  (Read 4674 times)

RMc

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Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
« on: July 24, 2019, 02:43:58 am »
Reholstering a striker fired or single action pistol is arguably one of the higher risk aspects of handgunning often given the least attention.
The video below discusses, abeit briefly, the role of the grip saftey feature of the S&W Shield 380 EZ in making reholstering safer.

Your thoughts   :hmm

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    LowKey

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #1 on: July 24, 2019, 07:56:16 pm »
    Reholstering a striker fired or single action pistol is arguably one of the higher risk aspects of handgunning often given the least attention.
    The video below discusses, abeit briefly, the role of the grip saftey feature of the S&W Shield 380 EZ in making reholstering safer.

    Your thoughts   :hmm


    No mechanical saftey should be trusted 100%, and nothing can replace care, focus, and attention on the part of the firearms handler.   
    Choose an appropriate holster, and pay attention to what you're doing when re-holstering.  Use two hands if needed.
    As a regular Joe* if  you can't use both hands to re-holster you probably shouldn't be putting the gun away anyhow.



    *vs LEO or .mil taking a prisoner into custody.

    Chief45

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #2 on: July 26, 2019, 10:07:12 am »
    just for a point of information,  we train our officers to Never attempt to use 2 hands to holster.  If you can't find and safely holster using only the gun hand,  you need more training and a butt ton of practice.  While the vast majority of our training is a duty rig, not a concealed carry holster, the idea is still the same.   If you cannot safely holster using only the gun hand, because of your holster, you need a new holster. keep looking or better yet talk to a good holster maker (hey Luke . . ) 

    Of course that also brings up a continual training topic for the new shooters as well.
    There is no prize for being the fastest back into the holster. Take your time, eyes moving, keep aware of the target, holster correctly and did I mention, take your time.



    No mechanical saftey should be trusted 100%, and nothing can replace care, focus, and attention on the part of the firearms handler.   
    Choose an appropriate holster, and pay attention to what you're doing when re-holstering.  Use two hands if needed.
    As a regular Joe* if  you can't use both hands to re-holster you probably shouldn't be putting the gun away anyhow.



    *vs LEO or .mil taking a prisoner into custody.
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

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    sqlbullet

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #3 on: July 26, 2019, 10:51:23 am »
    So for a uniform or even a plainclothes officer, that makes complete sense to me.  For many CCW carriers and probably deep cover officers, this seems impractical.  My shirt is over the holster and has to be lifted to expose the holster.

    I completely agree that only one hand should be needed to operate the gun:holster interaction, but for most deep concealment set-ups there is clothing the off hand has to "manage" out of the way.
    Utah

    Mikee5star

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #4 on: July 26, 2019, 11:16:20 am »
    When I carry appendix, I never re-holster with the holster in my pants.  This means that it takes two hands, but feels much safer. 

    When I did my CCW class we had to have a OWB holster capable of re-holstering one handed.  Adam's holsters worked great for both my wife and I.  I gave out several cards.
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    Chief45

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #5 on: July 26, 2019, 12:07:52 pm »
    Yeah,  it will always be situational, depending on style and location,  but,  using off hand to lift a cover garment is one thing,  having to use 2 hands to get the gun back into the holster, I would consider that a design that has limits. 
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

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    LowKey

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #6 on: July 26, 2019, 01:18:41 pm »
    Yeah,  it will always be situational, depending on style and location,  but,  using off hand to lift a cover garment is one thing,  having to use 2 hands to get the gun back into the holster, I would consider that a design that has limits.
    I'm not suggesting that using two hands to re-holster is optima or that it should be the norm.
    Simply that if they can't, for whatever reason, safely reholster with one hand then they should use two. 
    Floppy IWB holsters abound and while yes, they should get a better holster and yes, they should train more the truth is that those floppy holsters are going to be around longer than either of us.

    Also one of the points I was trying to make is that for a non-LEO/non-.mil who's drawn a handgun; if they don't have the option of using both hands to re-holster then they probably shouldn't be re-holstering anyway, meaning if they still have a bad guy to deal with then the gun should be out until LEO arrives and can take over. 

    luke213(adamsholsters)

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #7 on: July 26, 2019, 07:07:13 pm »
    I don't see the grip safety as a plus when it comes to safety within the holster, yes you can cover the rear of the slide but a good rig ought to allow a full grip on the gun. Do I do it sometimes on certain guns? Yes, should you? Probably not;) Really consistency in my opinion is important I wouldn't recommend thumbing the rear of the slide unless you've got a reason to. In my mind if you're putting the gun back in the holster you're also holding down the grip safety(or that's my expectation).

    As far as one handed reholstering, I always try to design for that. But like Mike mentioned, I recommend taking the holster off body to reholster for appendix mostly for extra safety. I don't think it's a "gotta have" but more of a very nice to have thing. Especially for normal carry folks, LEO's etc sure I can see it being much more necessary. At the end of the day though I'm still of the opinion that making a rig that works for you and the way you carry is ideal.

    Luke
    MichiganI am the owner/proprietor of www.adamsholsters.com Custom holsters made for you. To contact me please use E-mail rather than Private Messages, [email protected]

    sqlbullet

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #8 on: July 27, 2019, 01:03:13 pm »
    Yeah,  it will always be situational, depending on style and location,  but,  using off hand to lift a cover garment is one thing,  having to use 2 hands to get the gun back into the holster, I would consider that a design that has limits. 

    Same page!
    Utah

    RMc

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #9 on: July 27, 2019, 05:53:44 pm »
    I don't see the grip safety as a plus when it comes to safety within the holster, yes you can cover the rear of the slide but a good rig ought to allow a full grip on the gun. Do I do it sometimes on certain guns? Yes, should you? Probably not;) Really consistency in my opinion is important I wouldn't recommend thumbing the rear of the slide unless you've got a reason to. In my mind if you're putting the gun back in the holster you're also holding down the grip safety(or that's my expectation).

    As far as one handed reholstering, I always try to design for that. But like Mike mentioned, I recommend taking the holster off body to reholster for appendix mostly for extra safety. I don't think it's a "gotta have" but more of a very nice to have thing. Especially for normal carry folks, LEO's etc sure I can see it being much more necessary. At the end of the day though I'm still of the opinion that making a rig that works for you and the way you carry is ideal.

    Luke

    Re: Bold face from your post above: The whole point of gripping the EZ with the gunhand thumb placed on the rear of the slide when reholstering is prevent depressing the grip safety.

    The Shield EZ platform safety system starts with a passive grip safety that disengages the trigger linkage, and engages the firing pin lock whenever the handgun is not held with a firing grip.
    The addition of an ambidextrous thumb safety further locks the single action sear when engaged.

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    luke213(adamsholsters)

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #10 on: July 27, 2019, 06:37:45 pm »
    I completely get what you're saying my only point is that when I reholster a handgun I do so with the same grip as I unholster the gun. Or at least that's my normal technique as a result that means it's disabling the grip safety just by default.

    Switching grip to reholster of course is an option, but I think it's less likely that people will do it since normally gripping the gun in a shooting grip disables the safety. So for my 2 cents I just don't see a grip safety as a safety to stop issues during the process of reholstering. But it could be, just requires guys to reholster differently than I think the norm would be.

    Luke
    MichiganI am the owner/proprietor of www.adamsholsters.com Custom holsters made for you. To contact me please use E-mail rather than Private Messages, [email protected]

    coelacanth

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #11 on: July 27, 2019, 07:26:34 pm »
    Do you re-holster your gun ( I assume you're referring to a 1911 ) without engaging the thumb safety?   And to the point of the OP, why would you re-holster the S&W Shield .380 EZ without engaging the thumb safety first?   That would seem to be the first order of business on a hammer fired gun before even thinking of re-holstering it, no?   :hmm   With the thumb safety engaged you should be able to grip the pistol normally when re-holstering it without risking a potential ND. 

    If you can't get your head around that maybe a revolver would be a better choice.   :coffee
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    luke213(adamsholsters)

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #12 on: July 27, 2019, 07:35:57 pm »
    I think the issue with the 380EZ was what they mentioned in the video the safety on the frame is optional, so not all of them have it. So there is a chance that just the grip safety is the only safety.

    As far as how I reholster or draw I'll go through my whole process of sorts;)

    Acquire the grip in the holster thumb down, draw from the holster to a holding position around half way to target, during that transition moving the thumb on top of the thumb safety. Then if shooting click off the safety, drive forward and shoot. Then once done shooting go back to that middle position, engage the safety, then move thumb down under the safety while returning to the holster and reinsert.

    Now with a manual safety EZ that is a safe process, works well with a 1911 or really anything with a manual safety with or without a grip safety. The only time I find it necessary to ride the rear of the slide is on a very tight holster, or a gun with a weak recoil spring.

    Now that said, knowing the EZ(I haven't handled one), has a very easy recoil spring because of it's ease of chambering it could very well be a gun that requires a thumb on the rear of the slide to insure the action doesn't open during reholstering. But who knows just spitballing here;)

    Luke
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #13 on: July 27, 2019, 07:41:36 pm »
    A valid point about possible slide movement during a re-holster in a fairly tight friction fit holster.  The gun shown had the manual safety which is what I assumed we were discussing but if it does not have that your thumb on the back of the slide during a re-holster should be automatic.  Or so it seems to me.  :hmm   

    With the manual safety engaged the slide should be locked in place but without it I don't see how you can safely re-holster a pistol with such a light recoil spring using the normal firing grip.
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    luke213(adamsholsters)

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #14 on: July 27, 2019, 07:45:15 pm »
    I wouldn't say it's uncommon to on a gun without a manual safety reinsert with the thumb over the rear of the slide, I know guys do that and I do on some stuff;) My biggest thought is I've never seen someone draw with a thumb on the rear of the slide(at least in a holster that permits a proper grip), so I wouldn't naturally expect guys to holster in a manner different than they drew the gun.

    I guess also I should say to a degree I'm playing devils advocate here to a degree and part of the reason is in the last 10 years making holsters I've learned that nothing can be taken as "normal" when it comes to how guys use a holster or draw a gun;) So I've seen and heard some really odd things, like wanting high amounts of forward cant for appendix carry and so so many other things;) Things I wouldn't think of as normal or so abnormal I never had even thought about someone doing them:)

    Luke
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #15 on: July 27, 2019, 07:52:04 pm »
    Which is exactly why your input is so valuable on a topic like this one.  You have more experience putting guns in holsters than perhaps the rest of us combined so thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.   :cool
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    luke213(adamsholsters)

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #16 on: July 27, 2019, 07:55:23 pm »
    Well I'm made a few over the years;) That said I still don't really consider myself an expert but I've certainly had some experience now to draw from when it comes to how guys use gear.

    That said not getting too far off track I'd still stand by my initial thought I don't think it's a safety for insertion into a holster, it could be but I wouldn't call it a feature for that. I see a grip safety as an additional safety for any circumstance where the gun isn't in a proper firing grip which of course is broad;) But that's how I see it, if you insert into a holster without a proper grip then it could provide extra safety there, but I'd say the odds are 50/50 if not worse as to the number of guys who holster that way:)

    Luke
    MichiganI am the owner/proprietor of www.adamsholsters.com Custom holsters made for you. To contact me please use E-mail rather than Private Messages, [email protected]

    RMc

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #17 on: July 28, 2019, 04:06:24 am »
    From the S&W Shield 380 EZ manual:

    • The slide can be manipulated to
    load (or unload) the chamber
    regardless of the position of
    the manual thumb safety lever

    https://snwcdnprod.azureedge.net/sites/default/files/owners-manuals/M%26P_SHIELD_380_EZ_080118_3008139.pdf
    Alabama

    coelacanth

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    Re: Grip safeties and risk mitigation when holstering
    « Reply #18 on: July 29, 2019, 01:03:38 am »
    Interesting.  I assumed it blocked the slide as well as the hammer.  Clearly I was mistaken.  All the more reason to keep a thumb on the back of the slide when re-holstering. 
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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