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Author Topic: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life  (Read 44321 times)

Mikee5star

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Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2015, 02:18:51 pm »
I don't have the bandwidth to watch the video, and I don't know Shaw personally, but I have listened to his podcast and heard him on several others. His title is 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life. That is his choice. And you know what, I have no issue with that.

Does he say that he won't train people who use 1911?  Then I have an issue. But the Shaw I have heard would not say that.

9mm and a plastic striker fired might be the most "common sense" approach, but it is not my choice.  I carry the biggest gun, in the biggest caliber and with the highest capacity I can reasonable conceal. For me right now, until I can get my wide body reliable, it is a 1911 commander with 8 round mags.
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    Robinson

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #26 on: September 21, 2015, 02:36:02 pm »
    My favorite example of jumping off the 1911 bandwagon came from Hilton Yam.  For years he built very expensive, custom, high-end 1911s. 

    Few years back his apparently had this big epiphany that the 1911 isn't that great after all, and wrote an article swearing off of them.

    If I remember correctly, Mr. Yam's criticism of the 1911 is mostly within the context of unit or organizational issue where a fleet of the pistols must be maintained by unit armorors.  And I think he's right.

    A 1911 is not the gun I recommend to new shooters either.  I carry one because I've been using them for decades, I simply like them, and I am willing to make the investment to ensure mine operate properly.  Fortunately I have been lucky and all my Colts run okay so far.  I also know a local gunsmith who is very competent with the 1911.

    I guess I'm agreeing with a lot of what has already been said.
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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #27 on: September 21, 2015, 05:08:47 pm »
    Pfft...we trained drafted teen age boys in mass to use the 1911 in war time, in muddy , sandy, dirty conditions.  It is orders of magnitude harder to drive a car with an automatic transmission or shoot an AR15 than to learn how to shoot a 1911.  It is easier to disassemble, clean and reassemble than an AR15 or a Ruger 22lr pistol.  You have to oil it!  Horrors!  May I point out you have to put oil in your vehicles as well?  The recoil is the biggest issue, and even that isn't really that bad.  I don't carry one because of the weight and where I started carrying even printing was considered "brandishing".  I do carry a gun with the same "limited" ammo capacity.  After 30+ years if shooting handguns I have finally found a gun I shoot better than a 1911 at social distances, but haven't tried it at longer distances yet.  I'd trust any of my 1911s with my life, or more importantly, the lives of those I love.  The trainer in question may be a fine human, operator and instructor, but he is just illustrating his own prejudices.
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    MTK20

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #28 on: September 21, 2015, 06:11:59 pm »
    My favorite example of jumping off the 1911 bandwagon came from Hilton Yam.  For years he built very expensive, custom, high-end 1911s. 

    Few years back his apparently had this big epiphany that the 1911 isn't that great after all, and wrote an article swearing off of them.  I think he retired from building them, too.

    So, I was thinking, you took people's money, a lot of their money, then turn around and say "the Glock is actually better"?  That's a little messed up, if you think about it.  You could have bought multiple Glock 21s for the price of one of his 1911s.

    These fads come and go.  Back then, .45ACP was the better cartridge.  Now 9mm is the best of all possible worlds, to listen to the internet, and there's no reason to go for anything more powerful.

    Give it a few years.  I'm sure it'll swing back 'round.


    Very true, ebbs and flows.

    The internet also says that the .38 special has never killed anyone before either ;).
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    Raptor

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #29 on: September 21, 2015, 06:48:39 pm »
    Very true, ebbs and flows.

    The internet also says that the .38 special has never killed anyone before either ;).

    Funny you should mention that, as my latest gun lust is for a S&W 67, K-Frame .38 Special. No doubt I'll be killed the moment I step out of the house if I ever decide to carry it.  ;)

    The truth of the matter is that every platform, handgun and long gun, has its advantages and disadvantages. No matter what platform you choose, be it a 1911, Glock, SIG, Beretta, AR, AK, FAL, SCAR, whatever, you need to practice with it enough to at the very least a) learn its quirks and peculiarities and adapt to or overcome them, and b) be able to run the gun under stress.

    Really, and please pardon the cliche, it's not the caliber of the weapon that matters so much as the caliber of the shooter. If I was forced to get into a gunfight, I'd rather go up against a full platoon of Armchair Commandos armed with whatever equipment "serious operators" use this week than go up against guys like Ian and Karl of InRange TV fame armed with Mosins and S&W No. 3 Russian Models. The InRange guys know those guns and know how to run them well enough to hold their own (more or less) against guys rolling with modern hardware, whereas I doubt your average Armchair Commando has ever run a gun anywhere besides a static firing range.
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    ZeroTA

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #30 on: September 21, 2015, 08:00:01 pm »
    .... I doubt your average Armchair Commando has ever run a gun anywhere besides a static firing range.
    True. But a lot of instructors have been there & done that, and most of the younger ones didn't do it with 1911's. I suspect it's a bit of bias that they'd recommend Glocks, because that's what a lot of them had used.

    15 years ago we were in the middle of the AWB.  I was not into guns back then, but from what you say, it seems that shooters were using the 'sour grapes' argument for the guns and mags that were out of their reach.

    The big argument was that if you could only have 10 rounds you might as well use God's own thunderbolt, the almighty .45 ACP. The largely unquestioned assumption was that .45 was in fact better than 9mm, because they didn't make many small 9mm's for the conceal carry market so not as many people questioned if 8-10 rounds of 9mm was really enough to get the job done. Of course now that you can have 15 or 17 or 20 rounds in your handgun, that argument morphed into, "Doesn't matter, 9mm still sucks."
    I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't.

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #31 on: September 21, 2015, 08:03:07 pm »

    The internet also says that the .38 special has never killed anyone before either ;).

    Laugh it up, I caught a .38 Special bullet once.





    My hand stung for five whole minutes.
    *rimshot*
    I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't.

    MTK20

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #32 on: September 21, 2015, 08:06:11 pm »
    You actually want to own one of those old antiques? Oh, no doubt that's crazy. #totesdeadbruh  :neener.

    I really can't think of many handguns that I would turn my nose up to (as long as I can pack them concealed). If I'm worrying about "getting kilt in da streetz" then once again.... The discussion really shouldn't be about handguns.

    If people didn't take the arbritrary nuances so seriously, the whole chest thumping "my gun is used by tactical ARfcom mod ninja operators operating tactically" nonsense would be hilarious. The only shame is how much stock people put into it  :banghead. The thing that really bugs me is that those who advocate a certain gun or cartridge with a fiery passion online often carry something completely different in my experience (that is if they carry at all).
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #33 on: September 21, 2015, 08:07:00 pm »
    Laugh it up, I caught a .38 Special bullet once.





    My hand stung for five whole minutes.
    *rimshot*

    Was it from Officer Fife?  :facepalm
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #34 on: September 21, 2015, 08:20:26 pm »
    Took my Springer GI to work today and ran another 50 rounds through it. 
    I've not shot it since ever.
    Zero Failures.
    As accurate as ever.   The gun cycled and fired flawlessly.  Felt great shooting it again.  Such a great gun.
    I do not know what this gun looks like jammed.  It never has.
    8+1 rounds of .45 Auto is not enough?
    Dude - you need to slow down and aim more.
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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #35 on: September 21, 2015, 08:28:50 pm »
    You actually want to own one of those old antiques? Oh, no doubt that's crazy. #totesdeadbruh  :neener.

    It is crazy, because my sole justification is that, "I want a K-Frame."   ::)

    Laugh it up, I caught a .38 Special bullet once.





    My hand stung for five whole minutes.
    *rimshot*

     :clap  Good one.

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #36 on: September 21, 2015, 08:32:01 pm »
    8+1 rounds of .45 Auto is not enough?
    Dude - you need to slow down and aim more.

    Absolutely. Nobody ever survived a gunfight by making a whole lot of quick misses. And should you find yourself in need more rounds (as in you find yourself confronted by a mob), that's what spare magazines are for.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #37 on: September 21, 2015, 10:55:56 pm »
    You can't miss fast enough to win.
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    luke213(adamsholsters)

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #38 on: September 21, 2015, 11:16:00 pm »
    I've never been in fashion clothing wise nor guns typically I carry what I like and shoot well and what functions well. For me that's a 1911 most of the time but it's up to everyone else to decide what they like;)

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #39 on: September 22, 2015, 12:32:49 am »
    I had our 1911 jam. Found out it was a bad magazine. Sent it back to the company I bought it from, and got a new one. It runs like a champ. My wife recently bought one too. It runs great.

    Would I trust my life to either of these? Of course. Do I carry one often? No. My back is more sensitive to having a heavy load on one side, and it tweaks it enough that I don't like it. I can carry one for maybe half a day, then I have to change it out. Our 1911's are mostly range guns for that reason. I have carried one a fair amount before though.

    I like the lighter guns for carry, partly because of the reason stated above. I also like having more ammo when out and about after work. Normally during the day I carry an XDS. The mag holds 7. Light and easy to conceal, and I can shoot it really well.

    1911's are great. I would recommend them to anyone that doesn't mind a heavy gun. Most, if not all, of the people that have shot ours have really liked them.


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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #40 on: September 22, 2015, 01:58:42 am »
    I think these days the 1911 is the gun for the Modern Shootist. 

    Ok I'll get to his video in a second, but first this derp needs to be addressed.  THE fluff?  The Modern Shootist?  Thats patently ridiculous.   :scrutiny  You should feel bad.  lol. 

    Alright to the atrocity that is that video, first the I'm too cool gonna record my s___ in the cabin by the fireside?  Dude eat bag of dicks.  You're a pompous ass.  Grow the fluff up.  I had to get that out of my system.  I fluffing hate the too cool for school s___.  This video.  Bastards.

    Alright his four major issues are as follows -

    1. Reliability
    2. Operational Consistency
    3. Maintenance
    4. Compatibility

    Did I get all that?

    1. Reliability - Honestly no the 1911 is not more reliable than modern pistols.  FACT.  However, there are MANY causes for this, mostly because gunnies at large, and jackasses running the companies are stupid. I swear to my left nut, we've been having this same damn discussion for the last 15 years that I remember and longer than that I'm sure.  Seriously, suddenly a wannabe smug self righteous twat makes a hipster esque video with his half committed deployment beard and its a new argument?  I swear to god memories like alzheimers patients.  Ok the reality is that we don't have JMB's design, we have a hybrid amalgamation of s___ crapped into the rough shape of it, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.  A lot of it depends on which idiot put it together on a given day.  Now sometimes if they have good parts, what gets shat out, is good, other times not so much.  Often we don't know because MOST guys buy a 1911, go shoot 2-3 mags, say YUP its good, then put it away and shoot their AR, or their Glock the rest of the time. 

    Now some companies like he said, really make something fluffing awesome.  And thats great.  They should be, but they will charge you like a dumbass you are to pay for it.  Because at that point its approaching art, because we've forgotten we actually expect things to work.  Go figure. 

    Now there is a third option here, and thats the guy who understands his 1911.  Knows it.  Understands how to make her run.  He cleans it well, lubes it, and replaces springs and pins at recommended intervals.  He's also a fluffing jackalope because hell if I've ever seen him.  The only 1911 off the top of my head I don't recall ever failing when I saw it being used was Coyotesfans Springfield Operator.  Even the Delta Elites have had a jam or two.  Now does that make it a bad gun.  That depends. 

    Operational Consistency - I think a bad gun is as much a bad shooter as anything else.  Between the firearm, the shooter, the weather etc there's a lot that can fluff up your gun mid run, whether thats a practice session, an idpa stage, a shoothouse in training of a knock down drag out ball stomper in the street.  What matters isn't if it fluffs up, but how bad it does, and how fast you the shooter can fix it.  The Deltas that I saw have issues, including THernlunds, were simple fixes, tap, rack, bang.  But it seems that unless its a high dollar, high quality gun well made, that the 1911 doesn't like the new manufacturing process of not being truly hand fitted by all but the best shops.  Of tolerances designed with the philosophy in mind to seemingly contradict each other.  We want precision accuracy in a 104 year old pistol but also don't want it to quit and we want it for under $500.  Because in addition to everything else, we're cheap bastards.  Through and through.  And therin lies the issue.  Everything else, comes back to that. 

    So yes, it can run, and it can run reliably.  And hey guess what, it can even BE RUN, and BE RUN reliably.  By the guy who's going to be out there, checking his mags, checking his springs.  Making sure his ammo matches his POA/POI.  But thats also the guy who's ready to rock & roll, a safety isn't going to cause him a hiccup.  Period.  Because like a fighter, he's already prepared for the fight. Sweeping off a safety catches a guy up though?  Thats a shmuck.  Thats the same guy who's carrying a 1911 to class because he WANTS TO BE A GUNFIGHTER.  But he ccw's a LadySmith 38.  He probably watches My Little Pony Cartoons too.  fluffing brony. 

    Shoot the guys who likely need a functional firearm are having failures because their guns internals are jammed up with cheeto crumbs and donut sugar.  And thats in a Glock, or a Sig, or an HK.  And with all the wonderful nooks and crannies on a 1911, if you don't take care of it, its not only not going to take care of you, its going to go t___ up at the worst time. You have to respect your weapons system, and most guys don't.  There's a difference between babying it, which some guys do, or not testing it, which most guys do, and using it as intended, using it within acceptable constraints. 

    So no I think he's full of s___ on the ability to use the damn gun, otherwise these same jackasses would be fluffing up reloads, reverting to the GASP archaic, slingshot slide release instead of using a button, inserting flashlights into their magwell or their a______s and all other such nonsense.  :facepalm  Look what you do in your spare time is your business.

    Maintenance - I'm going to place that next to be being a child and being spoiled.  Its a damn spring.  Its not a transmission.  WTF is wrong with you?  You can rave all day about building an AR, but you can't even replace springs on what was a functional 1911?  Or what should have been?  Do not pass go, do not collect $200, because you're a pansy.  Building a quality 1911 from scratch, s___, yes that is hard.  Even fully fitting it into a trustworthy life altering firearm, is a matter of art, see above, but just maintaining it?  Seriously he has a lease and rents an apartment.  Probably has a maid too...

    Compatibility - He's going to complain about mags?  THEY ARE DESIGNED TO BE DISPOSABLE.  Seriously princess, that one doesn't work, change the follower or the spring, see if it works, mark it and MOVE ON.  I have a mag for my HK USP, guess what, on that mag the slide does not lock back.  I guess I'll cry about it like a princess.  No.  I marked it, AND MOVED ON.  Sig Mags run about $20-40 depending on model etc. HK Mags START at $40 IF I'M LUCKY.  Seriously my HK45 mags run $70.  GoFundMe anyone?  But seriously, a top of the line Wilson Combat Mag, or Chip McCormick, runs $30.  If it doesn't work and you're too damn lazy to mark it, then guess what, throw it away and thats your lazy tax.  Try again.




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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #41 on: September 22, 2015, 03:09:39 am »
    Harm wins the thread.



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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #42 on: September 22, 2015, 11:52:39 am »
    Harm is right. I don't know the guy in the video, have never taken a class from him. If the Ogre says he's a good guy then I trust the Ogre.

    But I do disagree with him on his points. It seems to be the thing to do to disparage certain firearms for whatever reason. But, in my limited experience mind you, I've seen a lot of different brands go down for a lot of reasons. I've seen Glocks jam because they were filthy. No mechanical object is immune. Heck the axe is arguably one of the simplest weapons on the planet will fail if you don't take care of it. It will dull, rust, pit and the blade can come loose. Are some firearms better out of the box and require less, yes less not none, maintenance? Yes some are. But the 1911 has attributes that make it a good choice for self defense that are not replicated in other designs.

    The best instructors I've had never said one word about our kit. They know we have very little if any say about it. They taught us how to work what you had to the very best of your ability and to minimize what could go wrong.


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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #43 on: September 22, 2015, 02:37:25 pm »
    8+1 rounds of .45 Auto is not enough?
    Dude - you need to slow down and aim more.

    Also, reload at leisure behind something big, thick and solid.  Or at least out of sight. 
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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #44 on: September 23, 2015, 11:08:12 pm »
    That mindset is rampant among the "in" training crowd lately.

    Two weeks ago I was in an Active Shooter class put on by the FBI Academy mobile training staff. One frail looking Feeb instructor asked if anyone carried a revolver. I raised my hand and told him I did. His smart ass asked if I did so by choice. Yes, by choice G-string, both off-duty and on details with the narcotics unit wherein we are allowed to carry whatever we please. I also carry a 1911 and have shot hell out of both my Springers without malfs and while they require more frequent spring replacement than a Glock, I am anything but "under-armed" with JMB's baby boy. And yes, I switch sidearms around like pairs of boots but I mostly stick to my GP100. The instructor would have likewise been aghast if he knew about my 1911 love.

    I'm sure now that Sensei Shaw has spoken, 1911's are being abandoned like bastard children in Boston. What the fluff ever. There are too many experts creeping around nowadays and with what creds? I heard there's this one cool Coast Guard guy with a beard...
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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #45 on: September 23, 2015, 11:22:39 pm »
    You guys are making me miss my Colt Gov't Model. :(
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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #46 on: September 24, 2015, 12:05:03 am »
    That mindset is rampant among the "in" training crowd lately.

    Two weeks ago I was in an Active Shooter class put on by the FBI Academy mobile training staff. One frail looking Feeb instructor asked if anyone carried a revolver. I raised my hand and told him I did. His smart ass asked if I did so by choice. Yes, by choice G-string, both off-duty and on details with the narcotics unit wherein we are allowed to carry whatever we please. I also carry a 1911 and have shot hell out of both my Springers without malfs and while they require more frequent spring replacement than a Glock, I am anything but "under-armed" with JMB's baby boy. And yes, I switch sidearms around like pairs of boots but I mostly stick to my GP100. The instructor would have likewise been aghast if he knew about my 1911 love.

    I'm sure now that Sensei Shaw has spoken, 1911's are being abandoned like bastard children in Boston. What the fluff ever. There are too many experts creeping around nowadays and with what creds? I heard there's this one cool Coast Guard guy with a beard...

    I'm curious as to what his reply was to that.

    I'll never understand why we place so much emphasis on tools and not training. Even with a hi cap polymer wonder, more training never hurt anybody. Lord knows I could use more range time. Don't you know burning powder is therapeutic? ;)
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    sarge712

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #47 on: September 24, 2015, 12:30:12 am »
    Oh no I only said "Yes, by choice." I didn't add the G-string part etc.. Sorry if that mislead
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    MTK20

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #48 on: September 24, 2015, 01:01:22 am »
    Oh no I only said "Yes, by choice." I didn't add the G-string part etc.. Sorry if that mislead

     :facepalm

    Ah, shoot. I took it literally, sorry about that.

    I was really hoping, had you said that, you would've donned some shades and exclaimed "deal with it" at the end :P. It's still a dick move for him to question someone's choice in hardware like it reflects upon their proficiency. It's not like you were running around in the narcotics unit using black powder or something :shrug.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Chief45

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    Re: 4 Reasons I don't trust a 1911 with my life
    « Reply #49 on: September 24, 2015, 08:43:59 am »
    Can't.   shows up on the random piss test . . . . .


    **snip** It's not like you were running around in the narcotics unit using black powder or something :shrug.
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

    Non Timebo Mala . . . . . . . I will fear no evil. . .

    It is what it is. . . . . .It's All Good.

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