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Weapons and Gear => Handguns => Topic started by: RMc on August 29, 2016, 10:30:41 pm

Title: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on August 29, 2016, 10:30:41 pm
Here is a litany of cases where bear, wolf and other dangerous animals are stopped with common self defense arms:

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/dangerous-predators-stopped-with-handguns/

Your thoughts?   :hmm
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: tokugawa on August 30, 2016, 12:13:43 am
Perhaps the rest of the question should be "how many times did a handgun fail to stop the predator?"

Anything is better than nothing, hard cast bullets are definitely needed for penetration, with any handgun.

 I carried a 12 gauge with 1 3/8oz brenneke slugs in the bush.  I did not feel especially overgunned with distraught bears around....
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: Mikee5star on August 30, 2016, 01:32:11 am
For Dangerous Predators, I have carried many weapons.  But the most common were handguns, Glock 29 being my favorite.  10mm loaded at home with 200 or 220 grain wide flat points at max pressures makes for great stopping.  The gun you have is better than the one at home or left behind in a vehicle.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on August 30, 2016, 02:13:41 am
"...wide flat points..."    :hmm

So are these flat point bullets most effective because of straight penetration - compared to round nose bullets? 
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: GeorgeHill on August 30, 2016, 09:43:02 am
So are these flat point bullets most effective because of straight penetration - compared to round nose bullets? 

No.  Because they cut a wider permanent wound channel.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: tokugawa on August 30, 2016, 10:21:11 am
The guy at Buffalo Bore ammo has some interesting writing on this subject, first person.  One of the better informed on the subject.  Recommended reading.

Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: sqlbullet on August 30, 2016, 10:42:20 am
The heavy weight for caliber gives straight deep penetration.  The wide flat nose cuts a better permanent wound channel.  The are fun at the range cause it looks like you are punching the target with a hole punch.  Perfect round holes with nice crisp edges.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on August 30, 2016, 11:14:20 am
So then, heavy for caliber, hard, WFN bullets are superior to hollow points for self defense.   :hmm


"While struggling with the bear, the Ranger was able to draw his 4-inch S&W model 66, .357 Magnum revolver. His ammunition was 158 grain semi jacketed hollow point. As he fought with the bear he shot it four or five times in the head. The bullets did not penetrate the bear’s skull. He shot the bear in the neck with his 5th or 6th shot, killing it instantly."

http://www.marksmanshipmatters.com/dangerous-predators-stopped-with-handguns/
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: sqlbullet on August 30, 2016, 01:57:50 pm
Attacks stop by disabling the attacker.  This means either central nervous system disruption or exsanguination.  In order to accomplish either, you have to reach into well protected vital areas.

For defense against humans, modern defensive hollow point ammunition accomplishes the correct balance between penetration and expansion to ensure you reach vital areas and disrupt lots of tissue, accelerating exsanguination.

Bears have different anatomy.  The neck shots probably reached the spinal column, and since it was the neck, had less bone to penetrate to do the job.

I carry 200 grain JHP's for general defense personally.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: First Shirt on August 30, 2016, 02:17:07 pm
The late John "Pondoro" Taylor was quoted as saying, more than once "Shot placement is king, penetration is queen, and anything else is just angels dancing on the head of a pin."
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: coelacanth on August 31, 2016, 01:37:36 am
Not a lot of really dangerous predators here in Arizona unless you count the two legged variety.  That said, over the years I have carried a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt, a Ruger Redhawk in .44 magnum, A S&W Model 28 in .357 magnum and a S&W Model 625 in .45 ACP and a Colt Combat Commander in .45 ACP.  Those guns were invariably carried with heavy for caliber bullets and all but the Colt were usually flat pointed as well.  The S&W Model 625 is very accurate with the Double Tap 255 grain Keith style semi-wadcutter flat point. 

Any of those guns with the loads described are a match for the kind of trouble I'm likely to run into in these parts.   Lately the S&W 625 has been getting the nod over the others because A) Its stainless and requires less care in the field  B) Its lighter than the others  C) I can make big freakin' holes in things pretty much where I want them to be. 
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: JesseL on August 31, 2016, 11:37:41 am
The last guy I heard about in my area dealing with a truly dangerous predator used a big cast iron skillet.

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2012/05/10/ktvk-dnt-rabid-mt-lion-attacks-dog.ktvk.html
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: First Shirt on August 31, 2016, 12:42:38 pm
Other than the two-legged variety, the only dangerous game around here is feral pigs, so when I hunt them, or hunt other things where pigs also range (which is damned near everywhere) I carry a bird's head Vaquero in .45 Colt, loaded with 300 gr. WFN, hardcast bullets over really silly amounts of H-110 or W-296.  I've only had to use it twice in 20 years, but it worked like a charm, both times.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on September 06, 2016, 06:53:24 pm
No.  Because they cut a wider permanent wound channel.

You could say the same thing about expanding bullets - soft or hollow point.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: MTK20 on September 06, 2016, 07:20:36 pm
You could say the same thing about expanding bullets - soft or hollow point.

Although flat point bullets never get clogged by clothing, rendering them less effective  :cool.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: JesseL on September 06, 2016, 07:47:20 pm
You could say the same thing about expanding bullets - soft or hollow point.

But those sacrifice penetration depth to get an even wider wound channel.

The critical factors for stopping a threat with a firearm are always shot placement, penetration to critical organs or structures, and width of the permanent cavity; in that order.

A bullet that misses or hits a non-critical area will never be effective.
A bullet that can't penetrate deep enough to disable something important will never be effective.
A bullet that doesn't do enough damage to important things or let enough blood out fast enough might eventually stop the threat - but it might be too late.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: Mikee5star on September 06, 2016, 10:09:39 pm
But those sacrifice penetration depth to get an even wider wound channel.

The critical factors for stopping a threat with a firearm are always shot placement, penetration to critical organs or structures, and width of the permanent cavity; in that order.

A bullet that misses or hits a non-critical area will never be effective.
A bullet that can't penetrate deep enough to disable something important will never be effective.
A bullet that doesn't do enough damage to important things or let enough blood out fast enough might eventually stop the threat - but it might be too late.

This for the win.  Only thing I would add is a bullet/firearm at home will also never be effective.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: sarge712 on September 07, 2016, 01:16:06 am
Perhaps the rest of the question should be "how many times did a handgun fail to stop the predator?"

Anything is better than nothing, hard cast bullets are definitely needed for penetration, with any handgun.

 I carried a 12 gauge with 1 3/8oz brenneke slugs in the bush.  I did not feel especially overgunned with distraught bears around....

Very interesting. Where is this with the aggressive bears? Alaska? Montana?
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: sarge712 on September 07, 2016, 01:20:18 am
The late John "Pondoro" Taylor was quoted as saying, more than once "Shot placement is king, penetration is queen, and anything else is just angels dancing on the head of a pin."

 :clap
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on September 10, 2016, 05:56:49 pm
So the combination of impact velocity, bullet weight, and Area of the Meplat. (expanded or not), combined with adequate penetration are the factors to be taken into account.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: Mikee5star on September 10, 2016, 06:10:11 pm
So the combination of impact velocity, bullet weight, and Area of the Meplat. (expanded or not), combined with adequate penetration are the factors to be taken into account.

Yes.  Ideally the shot to stop a dangerous predator attack will be a CNS shot.  Secondarily you want to "brake down" the animal.  This means breaking major bones, shoulders and pelvis ideally.  When the critter is immobilized then a CNS or heart/lung shot to finish them off.   A heart/lung shot will most likely not stop an attack in time to save your hide.  It might save your life but...

The guy who is credited with killing the most brown/grizzly bears in Alaska, I will remember his name at 4am, aimed for the pelvis first.  This anchored them so that he could kill them safely.  IIRC he used a 30.06 for the vast majority of his kills.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 10, 2016, 07:06:31 pm
So the combination of impact velocity, bullet weight, and Area of the Meplat. (expanded or not), combined with adequate penetration are the factors to be taken into account.
Exactly.  This is also why most DG Bullets are hard cast or Monolithic solids... to prevent deformation which could reduce penetration or steer it off course.  You want it to be able to crush bone and keep going.   Ideally, you want a heavy bullet that's as flat as it gets, that can penetrate as deep as possible.   That's a DG bullet.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: tokugawa on September 13, 2016, 10:59:59 am
Very interesting. Where is this with the aggressive bears? Alaska? Montana?

Alaska, mostly in the northern interior. North (flowing into the Beaufort sea), and South (flowing into the Koyokuk and Yukon) slope of the Brooks range.
 The ones I have run into were not really "aggressive", although they can be- More like upset or worried about me.  Most of the grizzly bears would run away.  I never had to fire a shot. Got close on an occasion, but was paying close attention to the wind. Bears have a sense of smell that is astounding.  Surprised a sow and cubs once in restricted terrain, thankfully they ran the other of two ways out. She was Very agitated and very close.
 Young male bears apparently can be aggressive and curious, and old ones with bad teeth and attitude can be dangerous.

 One thing about a pump shotgun or a lever action rifle- the flat slim receiver makes it easy to hand carry for days- the somewhat fat round stock of a bolt gun does not sit as well in my hand- I carried a 338wm for a few trips so have some comparison.  Although it is a much better hunting weapon.
 I did not like to have a slung rifle, it bumps around and is hard to carry with a pack. Carried in the hand or over the shoulder held by the barrel. (unloaded chamber and muzzle away from my companions, of course).
 Just got back from the Alaskan peninsula- there are a lot of big bears there! Many more than the north slope, there is a lot more food available. Nice to see them from a boat...!
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: sarge712 on September 13, 2016, 09:05:38 pm
Alaska, mostly in the northern interior. North (flowing into the Beaufort sea), and South (flowing into the Koyokuk and Yukon) slope of the Brooks range.
 The ones I have run into were not really "aggressive", although they can be- More like upset or worried about me.  Most of the grizzly bears would run away.  I never had to fire a shot. Got close on an occasion, but was paying close attention to the wind. Bears have a sense of smell that is astounding.  Surprised a sow and cubs once in restricted terrain, thankfully they ran the other of two ways out. She was Very agitated and very close.
 Young male bears apparently can be aggressive and curious, and old ones with bad teeth and attitude can be dangerous.

 One thing about a pump shotgun or a lever action rifle- the flat slim receiver makes it easy to hand carry for days- the somewhat fat round stock of a bolt gun does not sit as well in my hand- I carried a 338wm for a few trips so have some comparison.  Although it is a much better hunting weapon.
 I did not like to have a slung rifle, it bumps around and is hard to carry with a pack. Carried in the hand or over the shoulder held by the barrel. (unloaded chamber and muzzle away from my companions, of course).
 Just got back from the Alaskan peninsula- there are a lot of big bears there! Many more than the north slope, there is a lot more food available. Nice to see them from a boat...!

Thanks. I'm a "shotgun with slugs" guy (and I also favor Brenneke slugs) and while that's enough down here in the Smoky Mountains for black bear, wild hogs and human threats, I'd not feel over-gunned either with grizzly bears.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 14, 2016, 09:15:13 am
Thanks. I'm a "shotgun with slugs" guy (and I also favor Brenneke slugs) and while that's enough down here in the Smoky Mountains for black bear, wild hogs and human threats, I'd not feel over-gunned either with grizzly bears.
THIS.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: First Shirt on September 17, 2016, 07:13:17 pm
The guy who is credited with killing the most brown/grizzly bears in Alaska, I will remember his name at 4am, aimed for the pelvis first.  This anchored them so that he could kill them safely.  IIRC he used a 30.06 for the vast majority of his kills.
Hosea Brown?
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on September 17, 2016, 07:39:08 pm
... Because they cut a wider permanent wound channel.

Following this line of reasoning, the .40 S&W and the 10mm Auto have a major advantage since all FMJ rounds in these calibers have a large meplat (flat nose).  Due to the large meplat, even the lowest cost .40/10mm FMJ-FN range ammo would be superior to the FMJ-RN configuration of most 9mm and .45ACP "ball" ammo if pressed into a self defense roll - city or backwoods!
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: JesseL on September 17, 2016, 10:10:19 pm
True.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: Mikee5star on September 18, 2016, 01:40:40 am
Following this line of reasoning, the .40 S&W and the 10mm Auto have a major advantage since all FMJ rounds in these calibers have a large meplat (flat nose).  Due to the large meplat, even the lowest cost .40/10mm FMJ-FN range ammo would be superior to the FMJ-RN configuration of most 9mm and .45ACP "ball" ammo if pressed into a self defense roll - city or backwoods!

Which is why I carried a 10mm with WFP cast lead bullet in the heaviest weight I could get, 200-220gr.  Can't remember how much powder was under them, but they were hot.  Way hotter than standard, FBI loading, 180gr factory loading. 
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 18, 2016, 06:56:37 pm
It's all about the Bullet Shape. 
(http://ultimatereloader.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/bullet_lineup.jpg)
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on September 18, 2016, 06:59:19 pm
Indeed, by the same line of reasoning, a Winchester 1873 rifle in .38-40 loaded with a case full of FFFg and hard cast WFN lead bullets would deliver the same deep/wide wound channel performance as a
10mm pistol with the same bullets of the same diameter.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: Kaso on September 18, 2016, 07:56:13 pm
You guys have me wanting a 10mm now. :facepalm
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 18, 2016, 11:07:15 pm
You guys have me wanting a 10mm now. :facepalm
(https://lovelace-media.imgix.net/uploads/315/bf6b18a0-9351-0132-1df6-0a2c89e5f2f5.gif?)
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: MTK20 on September 18, 2016, 11:41:19 pm
He's not allowed to get a 10mm until he gets a K frame or a .357  :neener.

Hell, it was his fault for starting that thread a few months ago and making me consider one myself. Or was that coelacanth? There are too many bad influences here  :banghead.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: Roper1911 on September 21, 2016, 09:33:46 pm
Thanks. I'm a "shotgun with slugs" guy (and I also favor Brenneke slugs) and while that's enough down here in the Smoky Mountains for black bear, wild hogs and human threats, I'd not feel over-gunned either with grizzly bears.
when all else fails, switch to slugs.

as for meplat? I need to make another flathead slug mold. full wadcutter 12 gauge slugs. .72 inch meplat. 1 and 1/4th ounce at 1330fps.
I miss it.

as for handguns? If I *have* to use a handgun against dangerous game? I'd go with a 1911 in .460 RAM (rowland), or straight .45acp with either Atomic 230 +P+ (230 grains at 1000fps? yes please. I'm considering this as my new carry ammo, seeing as my nickel jacketed stuff has dried up.) or Buffalo bore 255 grain hardcast flat points at 925fps. because I can. (I'm buying a box of each to test when I get my raise. I'll be getting 250 of the atomics if they pass. the 255's are just for fun, and to load in the bottom of a mag to surprise people. I'm already running heavy springs and shockbuffs, so I won't need to retune hopefully. I need to just get a Wolff tuner spring set...)
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 22, 2016, 01:00:31 am
when all else fails, switch to slugs.

as for meplat? I need to make another flathead slug mold. full wadcutter 12 gauge slugs. .72 inch meplat. 1 and 1/4th ounce at 1330fps.
:o
If you make some - make me some.  I'd like to test those! 
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: Roper1911 on September 22, 2016, 12:24:39 pm
Sounds like an excuse to visit Charlotte (?)
To be honest, the originals were super crude, the mold was a 2x2 aluminum block with a 47/64th reamer used to hollow out the hole and a 3/8th bolt running up the bottom to create the hollow base. The mic'd around .69 to .72 and ranged from 1.19 to 1.3 ounces. I'll probably get a real slug mold and have it machined out this time.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 22, 2016, 12:54:33 pm
The only way I'd roll into Charlotte right now, would be with the 11th Armored Cavalry.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: sarge712 on September 22, 2016, 02:36:24 pm
The only way I'd roll into Charlotte right now, would be with the 11th Armored Cavalry.

How far away are you from The Troubles?
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: Chief45 on September 22, 2016, 03:39:15 pm
flashback.   I remember my uncles (both retired as Sgt's with Detroit PD) telling us about being called at home and given their assignments (Detroit 1967).

Bring your deer rifles and plenty of ammo,  you'll be riding in National Guard Tanks.




The only way I'd roll into Charlotte right now, would be with the 11th Armored Cavalry.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: Roper1911 on September 22, 2016, 04:10:01 pm
My old roommate is there right now.
Theoretically though George, this'll be in a few months, so either Charlotte will have been burned to the ground, or it'll be over.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 22, 2016, 08:10:42 pm
How far away are you from The Troubles?
Plenty far.  I'm in Fort Mill... so it's a good 20 minutes away or more depending on traffic. 
Very much not worried.  But reasonable precautions just in case.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: sarge712 on September 22, 2016, 09:24:18 pm
Plenty far.  I'm in Fort Mill... so it's a good 20 minutes away or more depending on traffic. 
Very much not worried.  But reasonable precautions just in case.


Good, good. My wife's little cousin is a sophomore at Queen's University but she's safe so far and a good distance from the epicenter. Her dad and I are ready to roll that way to retrieve her but I think the crowds are starting to peter out.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on September 25, 2016, 02:12:05 am
Quick look around "the net" for 45 ACP Flat nose ammo:

255 LFN @ 925 fps

https://www.underwoodammo.com/45-acp-p-255-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose/

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214

230 FMJ FN @ 950 fps

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=295

230 TMJ-FN @ 830 fps

http://ammunitionstore.com/products/45-acp-ammo-230gr-tmj-fn-speer-lawman-53658-50-round-box.html

230 FMJ-FN @ 1,000 fps

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=125_197&product_id=663

255 LSWC @ 875

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=125_197&product_id=428

 :hmm


Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: Roper1911 on September 25, 2016, 08:31:02 am
Quick look around "the net" for 45 ACP Flat nose ammo:

255 LFN @ 925 fps

https://www.underwoodammo.com/45-acp-p-255-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose/

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214

230 FMJ FN @ 950 fps

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=295

230 TMJ-FN @ 830 fps

http://ammunitionstore.com/products/45-acp-ammo-230gr-tmj-fn-speer-lawman-53658-50-round-box.html

230 FMJ-FN @ 1,000 fps

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=125_197&product_id=663

255 LSWC @ 875

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=125_197&product_id=428

 :hmm



Heh he, ha ha ha MUAHAHAHAHAHA
I WILL SHOOT ALL THE AMMO!!!!!!!
*Cough*
Sorry.
WIN1911 it's also flat nose, 880fps.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on September 25, 2016, 01:19:22 pm
WIN1911 FMJ-FN 880 fps interesting.  Are we seeing a trend here?


http://www.winchester.com/library/news/Pages/win1911-ammunition-line.aspx
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: Roper1911 on September 25, 2016, 03:05:35 pm
WIN1911 FMJ-FN 880 fps interesting.  Are we seeing a trend here?


http://www.winchester.com/library/news/Pages/win1911-ammunition-line.aspx
good luck finding it. no one where I'm at stocks it anymore. so I'd have to order it.
and Atomic is actually (marginally) cheaper than the hollowpoints. so yeah. I'm testing Atomic +p's...
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on September 25, 2016, 06:43:39 pm
Are we seeing a trend here?

 As in Flat Nose non-expanding bullets available in factory loaded ammuntion for autoloading pistols.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: coelacanth on September 26, 2016, 02:41:28 pm
Hornady used to load a standard pressure, jacketed, flat point 200 grainer in .45 ACP back in the day.  I think I still have a box or two laying around somewhere.   It basically fed just like the 230 gr round nose out of everything I tried it in.   Not sure if they even catalog that one anymore but if I were packing the .45 ACP for big ugly stuff that could hurt you I would definitely consider that load. 
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: First Shirt on September 26, 2016, 04:42:36 pm
Lee has a .45 caliber truncated cone mould that throws a lovely 235 gr. bullet, when cast from wheel weights. I drop them from the mould into a bucket of cold water, and I don't think they'd expand if I shot them into an anvil. Loaded to 900 fps in a steel framed 1911 they seem to work well on hogs.  Not a steady diet kind of load, but for occasional use is not bad.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: Roper1911 on September 26, 2016, 07:33:19 pm
Lee has a .45 caliber truncated cone mould that throws a lovely 235 gr. bullet, when cast from wheel weights. I drop them from the mould into a bucket of cold water, and I don't think they'd expand if I shot them into an anvil. Loaded to 900 fps in a steel framed 1911 they seem to work well on hogs.  Not a steady diet kind of load, but for occasional use is not bad.
shoulder blade? what shoulder blade?
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: First Shirt on September 26, 2016, 08:45:32 pm
Yeah, pretty much.  It doesn't expand much, but it digs a deep hole!  (Back to "shot placement is king, penetration is queen, and anything else is just angels dancing on the head of a pin."  That should have come down off the mountain with Moses, carved on a stone tablet!)
The Lee 300 gr. WFN bullet for the .45 Colt works a charm in the Ruger-only handloads, ahead of really silly amounts of H-110, and will reach 1200 fps in the 5-1/2" Bisley barrels.  I've shot one of them lengthwise through a hog that weighed over 300 lbs., field dressed.  In through the skull, out just under the "other hole."

Not trying to claim that it would be the ticket for big bears or stuff like that, but it's comforting to have around in this neck of the woods.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on May 30, 2019, 02:43:31 am

To reopen this timely discussion:

Winchester has a new 230gr  Flat Nose FMJ for the 45ACP.  Rated at 880 fps.

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Handgun/USA-Ready-/RED45






Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: Roper1911 on May 30, 2019, 10:57:52 am
when all else fails, switch to slugs.

as for meplat? I need to make another flathead slug mold. full wadcutter 12 gauge slugs. .72 inch meplat. 1 and 1/4th ounce at 1330fps.
I miss it.

:o
If you make some - make me some.  I'd like to test those! 

this reminds me I need to finally need to do this.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: coelacanth on May 30, 2019, 03:17:23 pm
Why, yes.  Yes you do.  And a range report at your convenience would be nice as well.  :cool     That Winchester load looks awfully similar to a Hornady load that was being marketed back in the 1980's.  Good stuff.  I used to run them in my Colt.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on May 30, 2019, 07:46:16 pm
In the early days of WWI, Germany withdrew the Truncated Cone 9mm from military use. The storied lethal effectiveness of the truncated cone bullet form was reported to be the cause.

In another "Back To The Future" trend, the 9mm Parabellum in FMJTC form has returned. 

Witness:

Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: coelacanth on May 30, 2019, 08:57:14 pm
Apparently a very shallow angle cone without the flat point of the truncated cone design is even more devastating.  I don't remember who but several years back they developed a .45 caliber bullet that used such a point that in cross section was a 30 degree by 30 degree by 120 degree triangle measured across the case mouth.   :hmm
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on May 31, 2019, 03:57:25 am
To reopen this timely discussion:

Winchester has a new 230gr  Flat Nose FMJ for the 45ACP.  Rated at 880 fps.

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Handgun/USA-Ready-/RED45


A very interesting development in the USA Ready line from Winchester.  Ballistics data including velocity and pressure by lot number:

"Every box of Winchester USA Ready ammunition includes a Lot Number that allows you to quickly and easily find ballistics data — including velocity, pressure and accuracy ratings — related to your box's lot. Start your search by using the Lot Number found on your box."

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/USA-Ready
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: coelacanth on May 31, 2019, 08:29:18 pm
 :thumbup1
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on January 05, 2020, 05:26:28 pm
Another update on the continuing trend toward FN-FMJ handgun ammo. 

And with the ever increasing popularity of the 9x19mm, comes the question of how effective this round would be against "dangerous predators?"


Winchester's Active Duty line of 9mm 115 gr FN-FMJ:


 "...out of a 4.7"-barreled P320-M17, M1152 with the 115-gr. bullet was at 1326 f.p.s. and 449 ft.-lbs. of energy."

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/4/23/m1152-m1153-the-army-s-new-9-mm-luger-loads/



Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: ksuguy on January 05, 2020, 06:55:04 pm
Wonder how it compares to that semi jacketed flat point Spanish surplus I bought several years ago.
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: coelacanth on January 05, 2020, 08:29:17 pm
Probably penetrates a bit better without the exposed lead tip but other than that I imagine it would be pretty close.  I seem to recall that Spanish ammo was fairly hot - NATO spec stuff I imagine.   :hmm
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: ksuguy on January 05, 2020, 10:30:47 pm
Yeah, it was somewhat hot.  I never had any problems feeding it out of my CZ75.    I think I've got a few hundred rounds left.     
Title: Re: "Dangerous predators stopped with handguns."
Post by: RMc on January 06, 2020, 12:32:31 am
Probably penetrates a bit better without the exposed lead tip but other than that I imagine it would be pretty close.  I seem to recall that Spanish ammo was fairly hot - NATO spec stuff I imagine.   :hmm

Winchester Active Duty 115 gr FN-FMJ is loaded to M1152 mil spec and rated at 1320 fps.

Most commercial 115 gr 9mm+P+ is listed at 1300 fps.