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Information and Education => Gunsmithing and Weapon Repair => Topic started by: Kaso on September 01, 2016, 10:12:25 am

Title: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 01, 2016, 10:12:25 am
My BHP clone is one of my favorite guns.  It fits my hand superbly, and the trigger is literally The Best of all of my guns.  I just can't get it to shoot where I want.

As I mentioned in a thread some months ago, the POI was much higher than the POA.  Jesse was nice enough to replace the front sight with a taller one, and install an adjustable rear.  This should theoretically have fixed the issue, as the front sight is significantly taller than before...  Yet it is still shooting 14" or so high at 25yds, and to top that I can not get it to group well.  The grouping could be me, (and most likely is) but I find the vertical discrepancy bothersome.  I have tried multiple types of 9mm, and they all print high.

Does anyone have a suggestion as to what I can try next?  The recoil spring has less than 300 rounds on it, so while I have had a worn out spring on another gun give me trouble in the past, I don't think it is the answer here.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: First Shirt on September 01, 2016, 11:21:01 am
You mentioned different ammo, but have you tried different bullet weights?  The heavier bullets will print higher, normally, than lighter ones.  (A friend got his Dan Wesson .45 to shoot to POA just by switching to 200 gr. bullets, instead of the 230 gr.)

Otherwise, I'd guess that the barrel isn't fitted correctly, but that's just a WAG on my part.  Not sure about how to fix it, just being a tinkerer and having little experience with the BHP (although the ones I've used have convinced me that if I had to carry a 9mm, it would be a Browning).
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: sqlbullet on September 01, 2016, 12:07:03 pm
I don't have any advice for you right now, but I may soon:

(http://fellingfamily.net/images/kareenLeft_orig.jpg)

Mine will be cerakoted this weekend if I get the time, and then I will begin serious range work with it.  I picked it up from the FFL last Friday, and shot about 70 rounds through it on Saturday.  I didn't do any serious accuracy testing at all.  Minute of posterboard at 25', mainly seeing if it would run.  Which it did.

Once I have it refinished, I will put it on sandbags with a variety of ammo and see what it can do. At that point I will post my feedback.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 01, 2016, 01:24:46 pm
Okay, let's trouble shoot this. 
Starting at the Layer 1 level:  Physical.   Does it do this with other people shooting, or if it's Bench Rested?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 01, 2016, 02:50:33 pm
Okay, let's trouble shoot this. 
Starting at the Layer 1 level:  Physical.   Does it do this with other people shooting, or if it's Bench Rested?
By bench rested, do you mean locked in a rest?  No, I do not have a rest.  I was shooting 'wrists braced' on a table.  No sandbags, just free hand.

I was the only one who shot it.  I can try to find someone else to shoot it and see if they experience similar.  Honestly...  I would be thrilled if this is just something I am doing.  Something wrong with my form.  That means it can be fixed.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 01, 2016, 02:56:16 pm
You mentioned different ammo, but have you tried different bullet weights?  The heavier bullets will print higher, normally, than lighter ones.  (A friend got his Dan Wesson .45 to shoot to POA just by switching to 200 gr. bullets, instead of the 230 gr.)

Otherwise, I'd guess that the barrel isn't fitted correctly, but that's just a WAG on my part.  Not sure about how to fix it, just being a tinkerer and having little experience with the BHP (although the ones I've used have convinced me that if I had to carry a 9mm, it would be a Browning).
I shot 115gr, 124 Nato, 135+p, and 147 subsonic.  There was no appreciable shift between loads, but I do admit that my patterns were crap. (And that is on me)

Jesse fitted the barrel, and while that was my initial thought as well, it *looks* like it locks up correctly. :shrug
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: RetroGrouch on September 01, 2016, 03:50:01 pm
If you were new to handguns, I'd ask if you were not locking your wrists while shooting.  If you let the handgun rotate upwards freely, the barrel will be pointing higher when the bullet exits the barrel ("limp wristing" a BHP won't cause it to jam in my experience).

Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: sqlbullet on September 01, 2016, 04:07:19 pm
I would assume George means shooting, but hand, off a rest.  Bags if you have them, but a table/sturdy surface at the least.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 01, 2016, 04:31:26 pm
If you were new to handguns, I'd ask if you were not locking your wrists while shooting.  If you let the handgun rotate upwards freely, the barrel will be pointing higher when the bullet exits the barrel ("limp wristing" a BHP won't cause it to jam in my experience)
While not new to shooting, it has been... a while since I shot last.  So I am willing to consider that.  I am going to try to shoot it again this afternoon. 

One thing of note, for an all-steel pistol, the recoil seems unreasonably sharp.  If the recoil spring was not near-new, I would be replacing it immediately.  I was not the one who installed it, that would be an Old gunsmith who dislikes any non-factory part or accessory - so I would naturally assume that he put a Browning spring in it.  As well, the tension required to retract the slide seems firm enough.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 01, 2016, 06:52:52 pm
By bench rested, do you mean locked in a rest?  No, I do not have a rest.  I was shooting 'wrists braced' on a table.  No sandbags, just free hand.


Okay.  Step one.  Bench it.  That means Sandbags.  Specifically to isolate as many variables out of the test.  Grip, Trigger pull... Bench it.   Shoot a group at 15 feet with one type of ammo.  Another group with a different bullet weight.  Check those results.  All benched.

Step two.   Have someone else repeat step one to confirm results.

Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 01, 2016, 06:57:44 pm
Alternately,  you could send me the gun...
For examination and rehabilitation. 
 ;)
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 01, 2016, 07:20:35 pm
Okay, well sand bags will have to wait until I can get some - as will the second person. (Hey Raptor...  Up for a range trip?)

In the mean time, I went out to try again.  I moved in to 20ish yards so slightly tighter groups, but the POI issue remains.  Here are some pictures for reference:

(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/ericjcostello/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0032_zpsstz0qkw9.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/ericjcostello/media/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0032_zpsstz0qkw9.jpg.html)


(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/ericjcostello/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0028_zps6piv31xc.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/ericjcostello/media/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0028_zps6piv31xc.jpg.html)


So there it is.  That's what I am getting.  As per my mark, 14" high seems pretty close to the center of the groups.  For reference, the POA is the three sight blades lined up just at the bottom of the big white circle.  If POI and POA lined up exactly, the bullet would split the red/white line at the lowest point of the white.

This is a cylinder from my Model 10 snub, and to illustrate further just how bad I am. ;)  The uppermost hole is exactly where I am aiming, but the snub puts them a hair lower. (And I pull them to the right)


(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/ericjcostello/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0033_zpsgrlm1lgs.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/ericjcostello/media/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0033_zpsgrlm1lgs.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 01, 2016, 07:24:50 pm
Alternately,  you could send me the gun...
For examination and rehabilitation. 
 ;)
If you were a gunsmith, I would say 'yes' right now.  To be sure, Jesse has done everything I asked of him with the sights, but I have a feeling that this goes beyond the sights.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Raptor on September 01, 2016, 09:32:40 pm
Hey Raptor...  Up for a range trip?

As it happens, I'm starting a "regular" 9 to 5 job pretty soon, so depending on how busy grad school keeps me, I should be free on the weekends...

And yeah, I wouldn't send it to George. I do trust him to figuring out what's up with the POA/POI discrepency. Getting the pistol back, on the other hand...
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 01, 2016, 10:08:35 pm
As it happens, I'm starting a "regular" 9 to 5 job pretty soon, so depending on how busy grad school keeps me, I should be free on the weekends...

And yeah, I wouldn't send it to George. I do trust him to figuring out what's up with the POA/POI discrepency. Getting the pistol back, on the other hand...
Awesome.  Please keep me in the loop.

Yes, George might get possessive of it... for a while... but his natural inclination is to send guns down the river.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 01, 2016, 10:43:02 pm
I said: 
"For examination and rehabilitation."
I never said anything about sending it back.    :cool
No, I am no Smith - but I've multiple Armorer Certs.  So I do know how to swap a part or two.   ;)

If the gun is shooting that high at that close of a range... I think there may be a problem mechanically.  With the Barrel its self.
Check the cam surfaces on the locking block.  First Shirt might be on to something with it not being fit right.  Or something preventing it from being in the correct position.  Are the primer hits perfectly centered?

Can you lower your Rear Sight?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 02, 2016, 12:35:58 am

If the gun is shooting that high at that close of a range... I think there may be a problem mechanically.  With the Barrel its self.
Check the cam surfaces on the locking block.  First Shirt might be on to something with it not being fit right.  Or something preventing it from being in the correct position.  Are the primer hits perfectly centered?

Can you lower your Rear Sight?
On the barrel, what do I look for?  What should I see or not see?

The primer strikes are centered, and they are nice and deep.  The rear is an adjustable Kensight, and is bottomed out...  and this is in addition to a tall Front sight post.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Grant on September 02, 2016, 08:40:33 am
  You said recoil seems sharp.....the BHP I had was a smooth shooter and very little recoil (I thought).....

  Maybe lockup is an issue somehow?

  Question: How high did it shoot BEFORE Jesse put on the new sights? 
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 02, 2016, 09:57:14 am
Look for any deformation around where it makes the barrel lock and unlock.   On the frame too.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: sqlbullet on September 02, 2016, 10:01:21 am
I had the same thought about the recoil.  Mine is a pussycat to shoot.  Lots closer to my Ruger Standard model 22 than to my Glock 20.

Centered primer strikes would indicate it is properly locked at ignition.  How do the lugs look in the slide?  I have seen pictures of some torn up ones recently as I was researching for my purchase.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 02, 2016, 10:04:13 am
Look for any deformation around where it makes the barrel lock and unlock.   On the frame too.
I will look.  Can you be more specific about what to look for on the frame?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 02, 2016, 10:14:38 am
Galling.  Where metal may have been pushed.
Because what I think is happening, is that the barrel is unlocking too soon.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 02, 2016, 10:53:13 am
Galling.  Where metal may have been pushed.
Because what I think is happening, is that the barrel is unlocking too soon.
I don't think I see any, but I will put up some pictures later.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 03, 2016, 12:01:56 am
Here are two of the inside of the slide.  The lugs have some wear, but it also looks like some metal - just a little bit - is being 'pushed.'  Like a bit of 'burring' (not knowing the correct term) is forming.  It is hard to see in the pictures, though a bit can be seen in the second. 

(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/ericjcostello/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0036_zpszno4rult.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/ericjcostello/media/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0036_zpszno4rult.jpg.html)

(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/ericjcostello/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0037_zpsjiikller.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/ericjcostello/media/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0037_zpsjiikller.jpg.html)

Here is the top of the barrel.  Not bad looking.  Once again, hard to see, but the front edge of the second lug has a bit of a 'bump,' as if metal has rolled up.  Just a tiny bit, and it can hardly be seen, but it can be felt.  Is that normal?

(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/ericjcostello/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0051_zpsqdzbaxye.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/ericjcostello/media/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0051_zpsqdzbaxye.jpg.html)

Two shots (as clear as I could get them) of the underside of the barrel.  This area looks good.  No apparent issues.

(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/ericjcostello/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0046_zpsnwbhn5vk.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/ericjcostello/media/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0046_zpsnwbhn5vk.jpg.html)

(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/ericjcostello/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0045_zpsoqvoypmy.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/ericjcostello/media/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0045_zpsoqvoypmy.jpg.html)

Finally, two of the inside of the frame.  The first is natural light, the second has a flashlight shined across the top, to bring out the marks on the top of the slide rails, and the inside angled portion where the barrel rides.  Unfortunately I don't know if this is galling, or just left over mill marks.

(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/ericjcostello/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0053_zpswjtf5csc.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/ericjcostello/media/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0053_zpswjtf5csc.jpg.html)

(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j396/ericjcostello/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0055_zps7cyonybg.jpg) (http://s1083.photobucket.com/user/ericjcostello/media/Mobile%20Uploads/KIMG0055_zps7cyonybg.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 03, 2016, 12:18:47 am
You said recoil seems sharp.....the BHP I had was a smooth shooter and very little recoil (I thought).....

Maybe lockup is an issue somehow?

Question: How high did it shoot BEFORE Jesse put on the new sights? 
It is surprising to me, and I really don't know why it is that way.  I figured a BHP would be soft shooting, but it is not.  9mm feels like a .40.

The sight question is hard to answer, because the barrel was replaced at the same time.  The answer is: no worse than any other 6o'clock hold.  It was a few inches high, and I didn't like that.  That was one of the primary reason I had it cut for Novaks - I wanted a better sight picture, and POA/POI regulation.  While the gun was being worked on, I picked up the EFK threaded barrel and sent it to Jesse to fit, which he did.

Unfortunately, the original barrel was lost in transit, when being shipped back to my FFL.  Jesse claims that he sent it in the same box, but wrapped in bubble wrap, (and I am inclined to trust him that he did) and my pet theory is that my FFL's daughter who works for him and does all of the unwrapping, did not see it, and threw it out with the packing material.  Curiously though, she left the other bubble wrap in the box to protect the gun.  So I don't know.  It's gone.  The unfortunate part is that I can not compare the lugs to see if one is deformed and the other is not, or to see if I might get a different POI with the original barrel.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 03, 2016, 12:22:36 am
I think you found the problem.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 03, 2016, 12:26:25 am
The barrel?  Or the slide?  Or the frame?

If I've found it, I don't know what I am seeing.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 03, 2016, 12:27:50 am
The lump on the second lug.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 03, 2016, 12:29:25 am
The lump on the second lug.
Okay.  How do I remove it?  Fine file?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: sqlbullet on September 03, 2016, 09:19:39 am
The frame has poor machining on mine as well.  Lots of tool marks.

The wear on the slide lugs seems a bit odd to me for a gun that was recently refinished. My witness was cerakoted about 1k rounds ago and it has very little wear.  But each gun is different. 

Lemme go grab my Kareen.

Well...Mine seems to have less wear on those lugs...but since it is a used surplus gun I have no idea the round count so that really doesn't tell us much.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 03, 2016, 12:24:04 pm
The frame has poor machining on mine as well.  Lots of tool marks.

The wear on the slide lugs seems a bit odd to me for a gun that was recently refinished. My witness was cerakoted about 1k rounds ago and it has very little wear.  But each gun is different. 

Mine was cerakoted as well.  The barrel... Since fitting has had about 150 rounds through it - not the 300 I had previously guessed.  So that wear is all new, and in a very short time.  I wonder if the slide metal is soft... 

I am thinking that at the least I need to step up to an 18.5 recoil spring.  Not for recoil, but to slow down the unlock time.  As I had one on hand, that was an easy fix.  I also filed - very carefully - the small hump on the barrel lugs. (there was an even smaller one on the front lug)  I cleaned up the inside of the slide with a small, flat piece of metal - just cleaned up the pushed metal on the surface.

I will see if I get improved results later.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: sqlbullet on September 03, 2016, 09:17:16 pm
I missed the lump, but that is a string sign that it is no longer able to lock up correctly.  You can try filing it down.  If it is keeping the barrel from full lock up that may help.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 03, 2016, 10:08:20 pm
I did file it down, but was unable to shoot it this afternoon, to guage the results.

My question: Why did that occur in the first place?  Because filing it down is one thing...  Correcting the cause would be better.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 04, 2016, 08:37:47 am
Wear.   
Maybe the metal in that barrel isn't as hardened as it should be.
But galling can happen on even the best of them.   

Now, this might not be the main culprit for the high impacts.... but as mentioned before, this effects lock up so the gun should feel a bit softer on the recoil if this fixes it and the gun locks and unlocks correctly.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 06, 2016, 05:41:47 pm
No pictures right now, but I figured I should report: After cleaning up the barrel and slide lugs and installing an 18.5# recoil spring, the group is down to about 8" high.  Still more than I would like. 3-4" would be ideal.  I would guess that most of that drop came from the heavier recoil spring.

Recoil itself is still heavy and sharp, though slightly reduced. (18.5 spring)  Right after shooting the BHP, I shot my .45 1911...  If I am honest, they were about the same.  Slight edge to the .45, but that should be expected - it is a .45.  This is with heavier recoil springs in both guns.  The BHP is up to 18.5, and the 1911 is up to an 18.

After firing I disassemble it and inspected the lugs.  No further wear was noted.  Of course, it was only 24 rounds, but it is worth noting.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 06, 2016, 06:07:17 pm
Huh..... That's just nuts.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 06, 2016, 07:13:27 pm
I have a 9mm 1911 as well, so I have some idea what a full-size all-steel 9mm should recoil like.  That 1911 is a pussycat.  The BHP is bordering on unpleasant.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: JesseL on September 06, 2016, 07:52:50 pm
Could you post some pics of your fired primers?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 06, 2016, 08:32:14 pm
Could you post some pics of your fired primers?
Tomorrow, yes.  I'll have to find one outside.

May I ask what you are thinking?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: JesseL on September 06, 2016, 08:35:02 pm
I want to see if the strikes are centered (indicating good lockup) and not smeared (which could point to premature unlock).
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: coelacanth on September 06, 2016, 09:18:52 pm
How does the firing pin stop look?   On some of the older guns I have seen them worn to the point that they do not provide enough resistance to help keep the gun locked until the pressure drops.  I've even seen a couple that were cracked and/or chipped.   If that is the culprit causing your gun to unlock too soon it is an easy fix. 
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 07, 2016, 11:06:33 am
How does the firing pin stop look?   
It looks to be in good condition.

I want to see if the strikes are centered (indicating good lockup) and not smeared (which could point to premature unlock).
I can't get a good picture of them.  My only camera is a cell phone, and it will not get a close enough focus.  There is slight firing pin smear.  The strikes are slightly off center.  Not bad... but slightly
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: sqlbullet on September 07, 2016, 11:11:56 am
How does the firing pin stop look?   On some of the older guns I have seen them worn to the point that they do not provide enough resistance to help keep the gun locked until the pressure drops.  I've even seen a couple that were cracked and/or chipped.   If that is the culprit causing your gun to unlock too soon it is an easy fix. 

In my 10mm 1911's I run flat bottom stops for this specific reason.  If the firing pin stop is damaged I would suggest replacing it.  They are pretty cheap.  I haven't look for a flat bottom stop for the hi power...And I don't know if one for a 1911 could be adapted with enough file work.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 07, 2016, 02:50:38 pm
There is slight firing pin smear.  The strikes are slightly off center.  Not bad... but slightly
This validates my theory... but doesn't exclusively prove it.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: coelacanth on September 07, 2016, 05:50:57 pm
Other than the details you noted with the primers, how does the fired brass look?  Any bulging back by the case head or signs of impending separation?  With the gun in battery is there enough tension on the slide stop pin to prevent moving it? 
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: mattitude on September 08, 2016, 11:10:14 pm
It's possible that the barrel isn't parallel to the sights and that could be caused by an incorrectly finished slide (barrel bushing) machined a hair too high.  That could also cause the geometry to be off just enough that it can't completely lock up and that would be why the lugs on the barrel are deformed on the edges.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: tokugawa on September 28, 2016, 08:36:03 pm

Question: How high did it shoot BEFORE Jesse put on the new sights?

 It
The sight question is hard to answer, because the barrel was replaced at the same time.  The answer is: no worse than any other 6o'clock hold.
it was a few inches high, and I didn't like that.
Unfortunately, the original barrel was lost in transit, when being shipped back to my FFL.

This is called , a "clue".  It shot "a few inches high" with the old barrel. Now it shoots WTF high with a new barrel. Hmmm.  Kaso, did it recoil so hard with the old barrel?  If I were to bet, it would be you have a bad barrel, or a badly fit barrel. And the increased recoil, together with the burrs, and the POI high, makes me wonder (and I am no gunsmith) if there is a problem with the bore.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 28, 2016, 09:02:09 pm
The clue is the unusually sharp recoil. 
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Raptor on September 28, 2016, 09:47:32 pm
Out of curiosity, who made the new barrel?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 28, 2016, 10:06:12 pm
This is called , a "clue". 
I'll say it right now, you may be the world's foremost expert on BHPs, but come around with that attitude, and you can screw off. :eh
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 28, 2016, 10:07:49 pm
Out of curiosity, who made the new barrel?
EFK Firedragon.  The gun is currently in transit to a recommended gunsmith to try and diagnose the issues.  Progress updates will follow.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Raptor on September 28, 2016, 10:23:24 pm
Hate to say it, but I suspected that might be the case. I looked at EFK when I briefly toyed with the idea of getting a threaded barrel for my P228. A lot of folks seem to swear by them but I came across an unusually high number of negative reviews, all citing poor fit, out-of-spec tolerances, and non-existent customer service.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 28, 2016, 10:25:52 pm
Hate to say it, but I suspected that might be the case. I looked at EFK when I briefly toyed with the idea of getting a threaded barrel for my P228. A lot of folks seem to swear by them but I came across an unusually high number of negative reviews, all citing poor fit, out-of-spec tolerances, and non-existent customer service.
Huh.  Did not know that.  Lovely.  :facepalm
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on September 28, 2016, 10:27:22 pm
Hate to say it, but I suspected that might be the case. I looked at EFK when I briefly toyed with the idea of getting a threaded barrel for my P228. A lot of folks seem to swear by them but I came across an unusually high number of negative reviews, all citing poor fit, out-of-spec tolerances, and non-existent customer service.

Huh.  Did not know that.  Lovely.  :facepalm

 :doh

Ouch. I'm sorry to hear that, Kaso  :banghead.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 28, 2016, 10:29:01 pm
Hey, barrels aren't that bad.  At least it will be fixed.  IF that is the issue.  We will see.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on September 28, 2016, 10:48:08 pm
Very true. Good luck in your endeavours!  :cool
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: tokugawa on September 29, 2016, 12:44:58 am
I'll say it right now, you may be the world's foremost expert on BHPs, but come around with that attitude, and you can screw off. :eh

 Actually, I don't know a thing about BHP's- but when a new problem occurs directly after a change, the change is suspect. Always.   Don't matter what it is, car, gun, whatever.  Did not mean to offend you- didn't think it was offensive, really, but to each his own.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on September 29, 2016, 02:12:01 pm
Did not mean to offend you- didn't think it was offensive, really, but to each his own.

You did not 'offend' me.  Just be respectful.

That aside, your information may be correct.  I don't know.  I suppose I will find out shortly.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: tokugawa on November 13, 2016, 03:36:16 pm
Did you get the problem resolved with the BHP?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on November 13, 2016, 05:13:34 pm
Did you get the problem resolved with the BHP?
Not yet.  Still waiting for it to come to the top of the gunsmith's work list.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on February 17, 2017, 10:27:45 am
Well yesterday marked 20 weeks at the gunsmith.  I was told (by the secretary) that it was 'done' and needed a final test fire...  Three weeks ago?  Four?   Then two weeks ago I asked her to relay a message to Paul, asking him to tally my bill so I can pay for the work and get this back...  No answer back, so today I called them to see what was going on.

Apparently that last test firing was less than satisfactory, and so it will require at least one more.  I am glad that this is finally getting resolved, but 20 weeks... :scrutiny
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: tokugawa on February 17, 2017, 11:21:43 am
Sounds like a guitar I sent to the maker for a replacement neck - each time I called he was almost ready to start work on it. After eight months he admitted he had no idea when he would get to it. At which point I got it back and built the neck myself.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on February 17, 2017, 07:38:08 pm
To whom and where did you send it?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: tokugawa on February 17, 2017, 09:31:19 pm
George, are you referring to Kaso's BHP, or my guitar?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on February 17, 2017, 09:38:26 pm
To whom and where did you send it?

Paul at Tannermanns. 

When I talked to Paul in the beginning, he was very knowledgeable and responsive.  I felt good about him doing the project.  I still do.  Lately, he must be swamped, because the company secretary has been screening him from the public.  She has been the point of contact lately.

Unfortunately, this is not entirely unexpected.  I was warned by others who know them, that Tannermans has a reputation for slow service in the gunsmithing department.  I chose to send it anyway, because of the personal reference. 

It is what it is.  I am not upset yet, but I think I am to the point where I won't be sending them other gunsmithing work.  I actually had planned on it, as over the phone, Paul seems to have the right 'personally' that I like in someone who works on my guns.  He is just too busy to keep up.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on February 17, 2017, 09:39:52 pm
George, are you referring to Kaso's BHP, or my guitar?
Pretty sure it was for me.  George had previously suggested someone for me to talk to about it.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on February 17, 2017, 10:28:31 pm
Paul is a great gunsmith...
But Tannerman's has turned out to be a Pile of Ate Up.   Things are crumbling there.  But Paul will get you taken care of if Tannerman's Drama can stay out of his way.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on March 21, 2017, 08:09:25 pm
Update: Shortly after the last post, the gunsmith working on my BHP was fired from his position.  Since he and only he was the reason I sent it there to be worked on, I started the process of trying to get it shipped back.

After several calls, excuses and false starts... Today I finally got it back at my local dealer.  Minus the magazine I shipped with it... :facepalm

The gunsmith recommend an outfit called Allegheny Gun Works for the next stop.  He didn't know this when he recommend them, but they are 40 minutes from my house.  Awesome. :thumbup1
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Raptor on March 21, 2017, 09:19:01 pm
Holy... that's just about 20 minutes from me! How did I not know about this place before?!

Here's hoping they're able to get your Browning squared away soon.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on March 21, 2017, 09:54:19 pm
Hope they treat you right.

This is a bigger debacle than when I was trying to get my FFL to ship Grant my Model 28.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on March 21, 2017, 10:00:56 pm
Holy... that's just about 20 minutes from me! How did I not know about this place before?!
My thoughts exactly.  I had heard of them before, but somehow got the impression that they were in the Allegheny mountains, not Allegheny county.

As close as we are, we really need to try to meet up sometime.  :hmm


Hope they treat you right.
Well just about anything is going to be an improvement on Tannermans. :scrutiny
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on March 21, 2017, 10:30:45 pm
Well just about anything is going to be an improvement on Tannermans. :scrutiny

You got me there. Guns sent off for work should not come back with fewer parts than they left with (magazine)  ::) .
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on March 21, 2017, 10:33:29 pm
You got me there. Guns sent off for work should not come back with fewer parts than they left with (magazine)  ::) .
Honestly though, the magazine is the easiest and least expensive to replace.  You know, if it just had to be missing something anyway. ::)
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on March 21, 2017, 10:50:32 pm
Honestly though, the magazine is the easiest and least expensive to replace.  You know, if it just had to be missing something anyway. ::)

Least expensive to replace, but magazines ain't cheap  ;) .
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on March 21, 2017, 11:21:36 pm
It was only a Mecgar.  Fortunately.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on March 21, 2017, 11:39:30 pm
It was only a Mecgar.  Fortunately.

?

I've always found the quality of Mecgar magazines to be quite respectable. I actually would like to get more for my Sig.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: ksuguy on March 21, 2017, 11:52:17 pm
I'd ask for them to send it back,  but I don't think I'd bother doing more than that.  It's just not worth the aggravation judging by your previous experience.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on March 21, 2017, 11:56:03 pm
?

I've always found the quality of Mecgar magazines to be quite respectable. I actually would like to get more for my Sig.
They are good magazines, and they are a whole lot less expensive than a factory Browning mag would be.  If I had to pick one to lose...

I will call them once, but that's it.  A $20 magazine is only worth so many minutes of my time.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: ksuguy on March 22, 2017, 12:19:49 am
I'd call and send an email just so you have something written down.   Other than that though, not worth the hassle. 
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on March 22, 2017, 04:19:39 pm
I called and talked to their new gunsmithing person.  He was a previous employee, so not a new guy.  He apologized and said he would look around.  He also said that if they can't find it... They are willing to send a new one.  Honestly, if that is the attitude they have toward it, I don't need a new one from them.  Too much hassle on everyone's part.

Most surprisingly, they did not attempt to blame the fired gunsmith for losing it, and instead affirmed that it had been with the gun even after he had been terminated.  I know that blaming recently fired employees for *whatever* is a very common thing, but... they chose not to.  Add in the fact that they offered to ship the pistol back for free to compensate for the delays. (which I declined, as I wanted to have it insured for a certain amount)

 I am starting to wonder if I am judging them wrong.  They have a poor reputation in local circles...  But I have been on the other hat dynamic, and I realize that one sided perception can be unfair.  I'm wondering.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on March 23, 2017, 10:13:57 pm
This Cluster fluff has me completely and utterly dismayed.  I don't believe this could have happened.   
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on March 23, 2017, 11:22:02 pm
This Cluster fluff has me completely and utterly dismayed.  I don't believe this could have happened.   
Eh, people get canned all of the time.  Were it not for that, I would probably still have my pistol back by now, only it would be fixed. :shrug
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on March 24, 2017, 07:54:47 pm
Update: I dropped the Kareen off at Allegheny Gun Works to continue the work, on a personal recommendation of the previous gunsmith who was working on it. (and who got it to within 2.5" of POA)

Allegheny Gun Works (more commonly known for their Beretta 92 'G' conversions) is owned by a relatively young AF vet, and staffed primarily by vets.  Their service is attentive, and their prices are very reasonable by Brick and Mortar standards. 

What is more, Josh (owner/gunsmith) puts off a very good vibe, making me comfortable to have him work with my toys.  Serious and Sharp.  I don't like my gunsmiths to be open and happy, which is why I don't use a gunsmith literally 15 minutes away...  If you smile as a 'default setting,' I don't bring my guns to you.  But this guy is good.  Fingers crossed that I will have a properly functioning pistol by Summer.  :thumbup1
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: coelacanth on March 24, 2017, 11:42:38 pm
At this point you realize that you owe us updates .  .  .   :cool
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on March 25, 2017, 12:03:39 pm
Update: I dropped the Kareen off at Allegheny Gun Works to continue the work, on a personal recommendation of the previous gunsmith who was working on it. (and who got it to within 2.5" of POA)

Allegheny Gun Works (more commonly known for their Beretta 92 'G' conversions) is owned by a relatively young AF vet, and staffed primarily by vets.  Their service is attentive, and their prices are very reasonable by Brick and Mortar standards. 

What is more, Josh (owner/gunsmith) puts off a very good vibe, making me comfortable to have him work with my toys.  Serious and Sharp.  I don't like my gunsmiths to be open and happy, which is why I don't use a gunsmith literally 15 minutes away...  If you smile as a 'default setting,' I don't bring my guns to you.  But this guy is good.  Fingers crossed that I will have a properly functioning pistol by Summer.  :thumbup1

Small detour, but I couldn't agree more on smiles, Kaso. I feel it's unprofessional and that people have wrongly abandoned the virtue of gravitas. People who have that as their default make me have the urge to guard my wallet, because you know they are trying to get something out of you... It's a disarming tactic, just like the making of small talk.

You can call me a grump, but that is what my short life experience has taught me about those types  :coffee .
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on March 25, 2017, 04:21:12 pm
At this point you realize that you owe us updates .  .  .   :cool
I have no idea what you mean.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on March 25, 2017, 04:25:25 pm
I have no idea what you mean.

He's saying that you've kept us in suspense this long, so now you are obligated to "finish" out the story by telling us what the end results are  ;).
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on March 25, 2017, 04:31:25 pm
He's saying that you've kept us in suspense this long, so now you are obligated to "finish" out the story by telling us what the end results are  ;).
I see.  No, the 'suspense' is just how long I was waiting to get it back from Tannermans.  They had it for six months, no exaggeration.  Including a full month of me trying to get it back from them.

Trust me, I want this pistol back as quickly as possible.  I bought it the day before the 2012 election, and since then it has been 'out' for more time than it has been in my possession.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on March 25, 2017, 05:21:40 pm
I see.  No, the 'suspense' is just how long I was waiting to get it back from Tannermans.  They had it for six months, no exaggeration.  Including a full month of me trying to get it back from them.

Trust me, I want this pistol back as quickly as possible. I bought it the day before the 2012 election, and since then it has been 'out' for more time than it has been in my possession.

:hide That's horrible. I must admit that when you get it back, it is a very fine looking pistol. I don't even know what a stock Browning Hi-Power goes for, but with all the work you've put into yours... I can't imagine how much even the Kareem costs, even if it is regarded as a "cheaper" browning.

How did you get adjustable sights on yours, btw? IIRC correctly, you have a threaded barrel, can, and elevated sights for it?

It's been a while since you've posted pics of it, but I remember it being really souped up.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Raptor on March 25, 2017, 05:44:12 pm
Partial thread derail, but I took my AR-15 in to Allegheny Gun Works this afternoon. I concur wholeheartedly with Kaso's recommendation. The staff is very attentive, very knowledgeable, and friendly without being "too friendly." And they are honest too. I explained to the gunsmith (Josh? I didn't think to get his name) that I feared I'd over-torqued the castle nut and receiver extension and asked him to take a look at them. He did so, and told me that I had over-torqued it and had "tweaked" (his words) the threads on the receiver extension a little as a result, but not enough to do any damage to the rifle or make the extension overly difficult to remove, so it didn't need to be replaced, and everything else on the rifle looked good. They didn't even offer to sell me a new receiver extension.

That right there sold me on him and on Allegheny Gun Works in general. It was pretty clear that I really didn't know my stuff, and they could have said that I'd damaged the receiver extension, castle nut, receiver extension, or even the receiver (or some combination thereof) and tried to sell me replacement parts that I didn't know enough to know that I didn't need. But they didn't. They only charged me there standard (and very reasonable, in my admittedly-uneducated opinion) fee to remove/replace the receiver extension, which they torqued and staked to spec.

So two solid thumbs-up to Allegheny Gun Works. I think I'll stick with my usual LGS for ordering parts and accessories, but I'll be taking any gunsmithing work to AGW. I've been thinking about having some work done on my Range Officer Compact (AGW offers Cerakoting too), so maybe if/when I have the $$$ to do so, I'll take it to them.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on March 25, 2017, 07:27:49 pm
How did you get adjustable sights on yours, btw? IIRC correctly, you have a threaded barrel, can, and elevated sights for it?

It's been a while since you've posted pics of it, but I remember it being really souped up.
It has a taller front sight, but not a suppressor sight.  It was installed to compensate for the POA/POI discrepancy, not to clear the suppressor tube.  Same for the adjustable rear.

Besides that, threaded barrel, ring hammer, carved wood grips, and a Graphite Black cerakote finish.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on March 25, 2017, 07:32:04 pm

I explained to the gunsmith (Josh? I didn't think to get his name)...
Josh is the shop owner and gunsmith.  Dark hair, high and tight.  Razor sharp.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Raptor on March 25, 2017, 08:00:21 pm
Josh is the shop owner and gunsmith.  Dark hair, high and tight.  Razor sharp.

Yep, that was him.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GaBoy45 on May 10, 2017, 04:37:34 pm
Little late to this discussion but I was disappointed with an EFK barrel for .357 SIG. Don Williams warned me about it but did a good job in fitting it. It'll go back to him after he gets done with my 9mm Hi-Power. It'll have a KKM match barrel fitted and some magazines tweaked. But glad to hear that you found a good gunsmith.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on July 05, 2017, 07:25:36 pm
Update: I dropped the Kareen off at Allegheny Gun Works to continue the work, on a personal recommendation of the previous gunsmith...
And 103 days later, they get around to calling me.  Their observation is that everything appears to be fit properly, but the gun still shoots high.  They strongly recommend not trying to fix it, being that modifications will easily exceed the value of the gun.

His recommendation is to 'learn to shoot with the holdover,' something I refuse to do.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on July 05, 2017, 08:49:52 pm
And 103 days later, they get around to calling me.  Their observation is that everything appears to be fit properly, but the gun still shoots high.  They strongly recommend not trying to fix it, being that modifications will easily exceed the value of the gun.

His recommendation is to 'learn to shoot with the holdover,' something I refuse to do.

 :facepalm

They deserve a  :bash.

I also would refuse to learn to shoot with a holdover.

Eta: just trying to think of helpful solutions, but maybe you should send it to me for, uh, testing  :neener.

On a serious note, what are you considering now? Jesse or selling it?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Raptor on July 05, 2017, 09:23:37 pm
Damn. That sucks.  Looks like I won't be using them for any gunsmithing, at least for anything more complicated than assembling an AR receiver.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on July 05, 2017, 09:53:07 pm
Damn. That sucks.  Looks like I won't be using them for any gunsmithing, at least for anything more complicated than assembling an AR receiver.
I think the three month wait is the worst offense.  As far as him recommending against further repairs...  I understand his point.  He was clear that they would pursue it if I wanted to, but also that he did not think the end results would be what I was after.  I actually appreciate the honesty.  And if they are three months behind on just getting around to looking at guns, then it would not be right for me to have them waste time on a project like this.


On a serious note, what are you considering now? Jesse or selling it?
I'm done with it.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on July 05, 2017, 11:09:40 pm
I'm done with it.

That's a shame, man  :(. Posting it here or gonna try selling local?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on July 05, 2017, 11:34:05 pm
What do you think?  I actually like you guys.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on July 05, 2017, 11:49:29 pm
What do you think?  I actually like you guys.

That's probably the most sentimental thing I've ever heard you say  :neener.

I'll be eagerly awaiting it's post on here then.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on July 06, 2017, 01:25:34 am
That's probably the most sentimental thing I've ever heard you say  :neener.

I'll be eagerly awaiting it's post on here then.
No, genius.  I don't dump my problems on my friends.  That is what Armslist is for.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on July 06, 2017, 01:16:56 pm
No, genius.  I don't dump my problems on my friends.  That is what Armslist is for.

Sooth thy mammaries , sir  :neener. I cannot help it if I get excited at the chance to see a BHP likeness on this forum for sale. Even if it does have a wart or two.

Although I do appreciate the fore thought of not giving us something that fails your standards  :thumbup1.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: coelacanth on July 06, 2017, 09:58:58 pm
I have to admit, I'm still curious as to what is causing the problem and what it would take to fix it.   I imagine all it would take to regulate the point of impact with the point of aim might be a slightly higher rear sight, no?    :hmm   Surely that kind of thing wouldn't exceed the value of the gun. 
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on July 06, 2017, 10:28:02 pm
I have to admit, I'm still curious as to what is causing the problem and what it would take to fix it.   I imagine all it would take to regulate the point of impact with the point of aim might be a slightly higher rear sight, no?    :hmm   Surely that kind of thing wouldn't exceed the value of the gun.

You do bring up a good point. I'm mechanically curious, yet mechanically unskilled  :-[. I'm sure kaso has exhausted every possible path he could. I know he is very fond of the gun and it is one of his most modified/custom handguns. It'll be sad to see it go, but I see his point in getting rid of it.

My grandpa had the same rule with cats. There are no housecats, only barn cats. If it doesn't work, then it has no use.

Sadly, Kaso's kareem has turned into a house cat.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: cpaspr on July 06, 2017, 11:12:43 pm
I have to admit, I'm still curious as to what is causing the problem and what it would take to fix it.   I imagine all it would take to regulate the point of impact with the point of aim might be a slightly higher rear sight, no?    :hmm   Surely that kind of thing wouldn't exceed the value of the gun. 

A  taller rear sight would give it an even higher POI.
_____________________

Wasn't the original barrel shooting about 2.5" high?  What might help is a newer "new" barrel, and possibly a new bushing (do BHPs use barrel bushings?).
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: coelacanth on July 06, 2017, 11:17:08 pm
 :facepalm  You are correct.  I went back and read about the problem again and realized my error. 
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: booksmart on July 07, 2017, 09:16:01 am
How high are the aftermarket rear sights when they're all the way down, compared to dovetailed fixed sights?

Kaso, can you post a pic, so that we can compare against a stock frame?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on July 07, 2017, 01:33:11 pm
Wasn't the original barrel shooting about 2.5" high?
It wasn't as high, no, but I don't remember what it was right now.

I have to admit, I'm still curious as to what is causing the problem and what it would take to fix it.   I imagine all it would take to regulate the point of impact with the point of aim might be a slightly higher rear sight, no?    :hmm   Surely that kind of thing wouldn't exceed the value of the gun. 
I picked it up last night, and had a good talk with the shop owner.  The problem, he suspects, is twofold.  For one, he believes the slide internal geometry and slide/frame alignment is off, and the problem will exist no matter what barrel is installed. (he tried another barrel, same grouping)  The other... Is the way the sights were installed.  To be fair, he said that he knew exactly what happened, and the person who cut for the dovetails (Jesse) followed the factory instructions that came with the sights... but those instructions are for a 1911, and not correct for a BHP.  Supposedly a BHP uses the same sights, but has to have the rear dovetail cut deeper.  :shrug  I am not trying to pin the blame for the project on Jesse, but it seems that his sights may be part of the issue.

Neither of these alone is responsible for the entire problem, but they combine to exaggerate the problem.

With this in mind I am going to try to shoot it again.  Paul did say that he improved it somewhat, and I am curious just how much.  If the discrepancy is significantly less, I may just get a plain novak rear and 'file' it to as close as I can get.  Even if it is not perfect, it may be enough adjustment to get it close enough.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: ksuguy on July 07, 2017, 03:15:17 pm
With this in mind I am going to try to shoot it again.  Paul did say that he improved it somewhat, and I am curious just how much.  If the discrepancy is significantly less, I may just get a plain novak rear and 'file' it to as close as I can get.  Even if it is not perfect, it may be enough adjustment to get it close enough.

Going to a heavier bullet weight might help a little too.   
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: cpaspr on July 07, 2017, 07:37:43 pm
Going to a heavier bullet weight might help a little too.

A heavier bullet may increase barrel dwell time, actually increasing the POA/POI discrepancy.

Kaso, what about a taller front sight rather than filing on the rear sight?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on July 07, 2017, 10:13:24 pm
It already has a tall front installed.  There may be an even taller option, but it is pretty darn tall.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: tokugawa on July 25, 2017, 12:40:47 am
This brings up some  ideas, hindsight being 20-20 and all.

 It may be a good idea, before sending off a gun to be worked on, to shoot a test target for our own records, noting the load and range. in fact, it may be a good idea to do it with all our guns, and stick the target in with records, so some safe queen could be brought out and shot with some data to refer to as to what it did last time, especially if new ammo is used.

 If you are  not totally worn out on this, it might be beneficial to take the gun to the range and shoot some groups with a variety of different bullet weights and brands, to see if there are any that significantly lower the POI. maybe two -115gn, two -124 gn, and two 147gn  loads.  I have a Marlin 1895 in 357 that with two common 158 grain loads shoots to POA. A third 158 grain load groups the same, but shoots about a foot high. I have no idea why. Velocity? I put a tag with the gun to refer to.

 Another idea is to see if you can find a 9mm bore sight to check if the barrel is misaligned. One would think either the barrel is pointing up, or something is happening during the firing sequence , like an early unlock or something of that nature. A guy with a lathe and surface plate could turn a bore diameter rod and use it to check barrel alignment also.
 
 One last wild card- I wonder if one of the other barrel manufacturers would be willing to examine the gun , and try one of their barrels in it to check and see if the existing barrel is fit /manufactured correctly, or if it is the slide made wrong. I keep thinking back (have not read the whole thread again), but IIRC, the POI was not a problem with the original barrel?  How much high is it shooting now, and with what range and hold?
 
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: cpaspr on July 25, 2017, 12:55:26 am
Quote
Supposedly a BHP uses the same sights, but has to have the rear dovetail cut deeper.

Can that still be done, cut the rear dovetail deeper?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: booksmart on July 25, 2017, 01:13:38 am
Unless the dovetail on the sight were thicker, I think he'd be better off getting a new slide to start from scratch...

Let's see if ASCII illustrates this...

Current dovetail:
-------/  \-----
        /__\

Recut dovetail:
------/__\----
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on July 25, 2017, 04:05:51 am
If you are  not totally worn out on this, it might be beneficial to take the gun to the range and shoot some groups with a variety of different bullet weights and brands, to see if there are any that significantly lower the POI. maybe two -115gn, two -124 gn, and two 147gn  loads.
That is the plan, I just have not gotten to it.  There is the off chance that maybe it will be close enough now.

Another idea is to see if you can find a 9mm bore sight to check if the barrel is misaligned.
It is, and that is partially the problem.  The barrel/slide/frame fit is off, and that is half of it.  The sight dovetails is the other.

Can that still be done, cut the rear dovetail deeper?
No.  For the reason that Booksmart illustrated, a new dovetail can not be put over an existing. (though a proper dovetail would be deeper than the one I have now)  The slide is a loss, and by extension the gun is.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: booksmart on July 25, 2017, 09:24:37 am
Can't find another Kareen for donor parts, with say, maybe, a shot out barrel?

Jesse, would you be able to braise or weld shims to the rear sight base, and make it wide enough for the proper height dovetail?

ETA: Damn, missed a bunch of surplus Kareen's going for $240 on slickguns...

And one claim that generic HP parts will fit the Kareen... https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_39/123000_FN_vs__Kareen_FEG_Hi_Power_question.html (https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_39/123000_FN_vs__Kareen_FEG_Hi_Power_question.html) (take with as large of a grain of salt as you wish.. possibly attached to a margarita...)

Ouch, $418? http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/browning-hi-power-slide/B515597004 (http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/browning-hi-power-slide/B515597004)
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: sqlbullet on July 25, 2017, 10:21:20 am
High Power parts work in Gen 1 Kareen's.  The Gen 1 guns were FEG made parts assembled in Isreal by Kareen.  They are accurate clones of the FN High Power of the same vintage, including the "Hog Nose" barrel bushing style.  The Kareen Mk II and III have less parts compatibility.  These are noted by the squared trigger guard, and later the exaggerated beaver tail.

Mine is ready for a cerakote, and then will likely get picked by my oldest as her 21st birthday handgun, thought I think the HK P30 is in the running too.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on July 25, 2017, 11:28:15 am
Can't find another Kareen for donor parts, with say, maybe, a shot out barrel?
Sure I could, but the problem is not only one part - not just the barrel, slide, or frame - but all of them just a bit out of spec.  The combined issue is tolerance stacking.  If this was the only issue, it would be able to be corrected with a taller front sight, just as if the rear sight was the only issue, it too could be corrected with a taller front sight.  And if the barrel/slide/frame issue was throwing things the other way, it would probably just cancel the sight issue out altogether.  But with both going the same way...  This pistol is not worth fixing.  I am considering parting it out, and selling that way.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on July 25, 2017, 11:37:00 am
This is befuddling.  But I think if remember right, that this all started with a new barrel.  I'd see if I could borrow another different barrel and try it out.  I think you need a new barrel again.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on July 25, 2017, 12:08:30 pm
AGW tried using a new barrel (didn't fit it, just dropped it in) and they report that the POA/POI issue still was there when they took it to the range.

As well, yes, this issue surfaced after I got it back from having a new barrel put in... as well as new Sights, at the same time.  As the sights are being blamed for half of the problem here, and trying a new barrel doesn't seem to fix it... I am not sure how much more money I plan to gamble on the pistol.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: tokugawa on July 26, 2017, 08:32:42 pm
Mechanically, the sight dovetail could most likely be tig welded up and recut. I am not a gunsmith, so can't comment on the metallurgy / heat question of doing it.
 A guy can get sort of tired of pushing a rope after a while... I have had problems with a gun that just wore me down tryng to get it right, and even when it got sort of resolved never really trusted it.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: GeorgeHill on July 27, 2017, 07:02:48 pm
Mechanically, the sight dovetail could most likely be tig welded up and recut. I am not a gunsmith, so can't comment on the metallurgy / heat question of doing it.
And then you pay for that done... and then for refinishing of the slide... This is very expensive.  And really, it's not worth it.  For less money you could just buy a new slide and barrel for it.  But after all the time and effort invested in this piece already - Maybe it's just time to write it off as a loss and move on.  Spending good money after bad starts get stupid after awhile.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: sqlbullet on July 28, 2017, 11:24:41 am
George is right.

This is a gun to learn gunsmithing skills on, not one to pay a gunsmith to work on. 
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: First Shirt on July 28, 2017, 10:07:02 pm
Not meaning to be an ass about this, seriously, but I'm glad it's your gun and not mine!  The Boss says that I have a Father Flanagan complex about firearms, i.e., it's not a bad gun, it's just misunderstood, and this one sounds like it would try my Christian forbearance!  Which is really too bad, because I've always kinda wanted a Hi-Power, just because.  If I ever had to carry a 9mm,  that's the one I'd want.

Best of luck with it, and if you decide to get rid of it, post it here first.  (I think I can figure out a way to make it work, eventually.  I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain!)
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on July 28, 2017, 10:15:34 pm
Not meaning to be an ass about this, seriously, but I'm glad it's your gun and not mine!  The Boss says that I have a Father Flanagan complex about firearms, i.e., it's not a bad gun, it's just misunderstood, and this one sounds like it would try my Christian forbearance!  Which is really too bad, because I've always kinda wanted a Hi-Power, just because.  If I ever had to carry a 9mm,  that's the one I'd want.

Best of luck with it, and if you decide to get rid of it, post it here first.  (I think I can figure out a way to make it work, eventually.  I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain!)

He's said that he won't dump his problems on friends here.

What do you typically carry, out of curiosity?
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: coelacanth on July 29, 2017, 02:08:36 am
He probably doesn't carry anything out of curiosity .  .  .   :cool
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on July 29, 2017, 02:39:52 am
He probably doesn't carry anything out of curiosity .  .  .   :cool

 :scrutiny *Grumbles* You knew what I meant  :neener .
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: coelacanth on July 29, 2017, 02:59:26 am
 :rotfl
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: First Shirt on July 29, 2017, 05:25:29 am
I usually carry a Kimber Pro Carry, .45 ACP.  Sometimes a full-size steel frame 1911.  Occasionally a Ruger Security Six, and when I'm hunting it's normally a Ruger Vaquero in .45 Colt.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on July 29, 2017, 10:42:57 am
I usually carry a Kimber Pro Carry, .45 ACP.  Sometimes a full-size steel frame 1911.  Occasionally a Ruger Security Six, and when I'm hunting it's normally a Ruger Vaquero in .45 Colt.

 :thumbup1

I carry my Sig P228, Glock 19, and S&W 686+ 2.5 inch barrel. I might be selling the 686 soon, though.
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: coelacanth on July 29, 2017, 10:28:56 pm
I usually carry a Kimber Pro Carry, .45 ACP.  Sometimes a full-size steel frame 1911.  Occasionally a Ruger Security Six, and when I'm hunting it's normally a Ruger Vaquero in .45 Colt.
You have excellent taste in forearms, sir.   :thumbup1
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: First Shirt on July 29, 2017, 11:49:25 pm
Thank you, but my forearms were not under discussion, were they?  I certainly hope not, they aren't that impressive. :D
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: MTK20 on July 30, 2017, 12:07:20 am
Thank you, but my forearms were not under discussion, were they?  I certainly hope not, they aren't that impressive. :D

 :rotfl
Title: Re: Need advice on a BHP
Post by: Kaso on August 08, 2017, 09:27:03 pm
After final review, the pistol is still 12" high, and is now a candidate for disposal.