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Author Topic: Need advice on a BHP  (Read 28437 times)

MTK20

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Re: Need advice on a BHP
« Reply #100 on: July 05, 2017, 11:49:29 pm »
What do you think?  I actually like you guys.

That's probably the most sentimental thing I've ever heard you say  :neener.

I'll be eagerly awaiting it's post on here then.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Kaso

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #101 on: July 06, 2017, 01:25:34 am »
    That's probably the most sentimental thing I've ever heard you say  :neener.

    I'll be eagerly awaiting it's post on here then.
    No, genius.  I don't dump my problems on my friends.  That is what Armslist is for.

    MTK20

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #102 on: July 06, 2017, 01:16:56 pm »
    No, genius.  I don't dump my problems on my friends.  That is what Armslist is for.

    Sooth thy mammaries , sir  :neener. I cannot help it if I get excited at the chance to see a BHP likeness on this forum for sale. Even if it does have a wart or two.

    Although I do appreciate the fore thought of not giving us something that fails your standards  :thumbup1.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #103 on: July 06, 2017, 09:58:58 pm »
    I have to admit, I'm still curious as to what is causing the problem and what it would take to fix it.   I imagine all it would take to regulate the point of impact with the point of aim might be a slightly higher rear sight, no?    :hmm   Surely that kind of thing wouldn't exceed the value of the gun. 
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    MTK20

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #104 on: July 06, 2017, 10:28:02 pm »
    I have to admit, I'm still curious as to what is causing the problem and what it would take to fix it.   I imagine all it would take to regulate the point of impact with the point of aim might be a slightly higher rear sight, no?    :hmm   Surely that kind of thing wouldn't exceed the value of the gun.

    You do bring up a good point. I'm mechanically curious, yet mechanically unskilled  :-[. I'm sure kaso has exhausted every possible path he could. I know he is very fond of the gun and it is one of his most modified/custom handguns. It'll be sad to see it go, but I see his point in getting rid of it.

    My grandpa had the same rule with cats. There are no housecats, only barn cats. If it doesn't work, then it has no use.

    Sadly, Kaso's kareem has turned into a house cat.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    cpaspr

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #105 on: July 06, 2017, 11:12:43 pm »
    I have to admit, I'm still curious as to what is causing the problem and what it would take to fix it.   I imagine all it would take to regulate the point of impact with the point of aim might be a slightly higher rear sight, no?    :hmm   Surely that kind of thing wouldn't exceed the value of the gun. 

    A  taller rear sight would give it an even higher POI.
    _____________________

    Wasn't the original barrel shooting about 2.5" high?  What might help is a newer "new" barrel, and possibly a new bushing (do BHPs use barrel bushings?).
    Oregon

    coelacanth

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #106 on: July 06, 2017, 11:17:08 pm »
     :facepalm  You are correct.  I went back and read about the problem again and realized my error. 
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    booksmart

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #107 on: July 07, 2017, 09:16:01 am »
    How high are the aftermarket rear sights when they're all the way down, compared to dovetailed fixed sights?

    Kaso, can you post a pic, so that we can compare against a stock frame?

    Kaso

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #108 on: July 07, 2017, 01:33:11 pm »
    Wasn't the original barrel shooting about 2.5" high?
    It wasn't as high, no, but I don't remember what it was right now.

    I have to admit, I'm still curious as to what is causing the problem and what it would take to fix it.   I imagine all it would take to regulate the point of impact with the point of aim might be a slightly higher rear sight, no?    :hmm   Surely that kind of thing wouldn't exceed the value of the gun. 
    I picked it up last night, and had a good talk with the shop owner.  The problem, he suspects, is twofold.  For one, he believes the slide internal geometry and slide/frame alignment is off, and the problem will exist no matter what barrel is installed. (he tried another barrel, same grouping)  The other... Is the way the sights were installed.  To be fair, he said that he knew exactly what happened, and the person who cut for the dovetails (Jesse) followed the factory instructions that came with the sights... but those instructions are for a 1911, and not correct for a BHP.  Supposedly a BHP uses the same sights, but has to have the rear dovetail cut deeper.  :shrug  I am not trying to pin the blame for the project on Jesse, but it seems that his sights may be part of the issue.

    Neither of these alone is responsible for the entire problem, but they combine to exaggerate the problem.

    With this in mind I am going to try to shoot it again.  Paul did say that he improved it somewhat, and I am curious just how much.  If the discrepancy is significantly less, I may just get a plain novak rear and 'file' it to as close as I can get.  Even if it is not perfect, it may be enough adjustment to get it close enough.
    « Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 01:49:23 pm by Kaso »

    ksuguy

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #109 on: July 07, 2017, 03:15:17 pm »
    With this in mind I am going to try to shoot it again.  Paul did say that he improved it somewhat, and I am curious just how much.  If the discrepancy is significantly less, I may just get a plain novak rear and 'file' it to as close as I can get.  Even if it is not perfect, it may be enough adjustment to get it close enough.

    Going to a heavier bullet weight might help a little too.   
    Kansas

    cpaspr

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #110 on: July 07, 2017, 07:37:43 pm »
    Going to a heavier bullet weight might help a little too.

    A heavier bullet may increase barrel dwell time, actually increasing the POA/POI discrepancy.

    Kaso, what about a taller front sight rather than filing on the rear sight?
    Oregon

    Kaso

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #111 on: July 07, 2017, 10:13:24 pm »
    It already has a tall front installed.  There may be an even taller option, but it is pretty darn tall.

    tokugawa

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #112 on: July 25, 2017, 12:40:47 am »
    This brings up some  ideas, hindsight being 20-20 and all.

     It may be a good idea, before sending off a gun to be worked on, to shoot a test target for our own records, noting the load and range. in fact, it may be a good idea to do it with all our guns, and stick the target in with records, so some safe queen could be brought out and shot with some data to refer to as to what it did last time, especially if new ammo is used.

     If you are  not totally worn out on this, it might be beneficial to take the gun to the range and shoot some groups with a variety of different bullet weights and brands, to see if there are any that significantly lower the POI. maybe two -115gn, two -124 gn, and two 147gn  loads.  I have a Marlin 1895 in 357 that with two common 158 grain loads shoots to POA. A third 158 grain load groups the same, but shoots about a foot high. I have no idea why. Velocity? I put a tag with the gun to refer to.

     Another idea is to see if you can find a 9mm bore sight to check if the barrel is misaligned. One would think either the barrel is pointing up, or something is happening during the firing sequence , like an early unlock or something of that nature. A guy with a lathe and surface plate could turn a bore diameter rod and use it to check barrel alignment also.
     
     One last wild card- I wonder if one of the other barrel manufacturers would be willing to examine the gun , and try one of their barrels in it to check and see if the existing barrel is fit /manufactured correctly, or if it is the slide made wrong. I keep thinking back (have not read the whole thread again), but IIRC, the POI was not a problem with the original barrel?  How much high is it shooting now, and with what range and hold?
     

    cpaspr

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #113 on: July 25, 2017, 12:55:26 am »
    Quote
    Supposedly a BHP uses the same sights, but has to have the rear dovetail cut deeper.

    Can that still be done, cut the rear dovetail deeper?
    Oregon

    booksmart

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #114 on: July 25, 2017, 01:13:38 am »
    Unless the dovetail on the sight were thicker, I think he'd be better off getting a new slide to start from scratch...

    Let's see if ASCII illustrates this...

    Current dovetail:
    -------/  \-----
            /__\

    Recut dovetail:
    ------/__\----

    Kaso

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #115 on: July 25, 2017, 04:05:51 am »
    If you are  not totally worn out on this, it might be beneficial to take the gun to the range and shoot some groups with a variety of different bullet weights and brands, to see if there are any that significantly lower the POI. maybe two -115gn, two -124 gn, and two 147gn  loads.
    That is the plan, I just have not gotten to it.  There is the off chance that maybe it will be close enough now.

    Another idea is to see if you can find a 9mm bore sight to check if the barrel is misaligned.
    It is, and that is partially the problem.  The barrel/slide/frame fit is off, and that is half of it.  The sight dovetails is the other.

    Can that still be done, cut the rear dovetail deeper?
    No.  For the reason that Booksmart illustrated, a new dovetail can not be put over an existing. (though a proper dovetail would be deeper than the one I have now)  The slide is a loss, and by extension the gun is.

    booksmart

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #116 on: July 25, 2017, 09:24:37 am »
    Can't find another Kareen for donor parts, with say, maybe, a shot out barrel?

    Jesse, would you be able to braise or weld shims to the rear sight base, and make it wide enough for the proper height dovetail?

    ETA: Damn, missed a bunch of surplus Kareen's going for $240 on slickguns...

    And one claim that generic HP parts will fit the Kareen... https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_39/123000_FN_vs__Kareen_FEG_Hi_Power_question.html (take with as large of a grain of salt as you wish.. possibly attached to a margarita...)

    Ouch, $418? http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/browning-hi-power-slide/B515597004
    « Last Edit: July 25, 2017, 09:54:21 am by booksmart »

    sqlbullet

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #117 on: July 25, 2017, 10:21:20 am »
    High Power parts work in Gen 1 Kareen's.  The Gen 1 guns were FEG made parts assembled in Isreal by Kareen.  They are accurate clones of the FN High Power of the same vintage, including the "Hog Nose" barrel bushing style.  The Kareen Mk II and III have less parts compatibility.  These are noted by the squared trigger guard, and later the exaggerated beaver tail.

    Mine is ready for a cerakote, and then will likely get picked by my oldest as her 21st birthday handgun, thought I think the HK P30 is in the running too.
    Utah

    Kaso

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #118 on: July 25, 2017, 11:28:15 am »
    Can't find another Kareen for donor parts, with say, maybe, a shot out barrel?
    Sure I could, but the problem is not only one part - not just the barrel, slide, or frame - but all of them just a bit out of spec.  The combined issue is tolerance stacking.  If this was the only issue, it would be able to be corrected with a taller front sight, just as if the rear sight was the only issue, it too could be corrected with a taller front sight.  And if the barrel/slide/frame issue was throwing things the other way, it would probably just cancel the sight issue out altogether.  But with both going the same way...  This pistol is not worth fixing.  I am considering parting it out, and selling that way.

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #119 on: July 25, 2017, 11:37:00 am »
    This is befuddling.  But I think if remember right, that this all started with a new barrel.  I'd see if I could borrow another different barrel and try it out.  I think you need a new barrel again.
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    Kaso

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #120 on: July 25, 2017, 12:08:30 pm »
    AGW tried using a new barrel (didn't fit it, just dropped it in) and they report that the POA/POI issue still was there when they took it to the range.

    As well, yes, this issue surfaced after I got it back from having a new barrel put in... as well as new Sights, at the same time.  As the sights are being blamed for half of the problem here, and trying a new barrel doesn't seem to fix it... I am not sure how much more money I plan to gamble on the pistol.

    tokugawa

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #121 on: July 26, 2017, 08:32:42 pm »
    Mechanically, the sight dovetail could most likely be tig welded up and recut. I am not a gunsmith, so can't comment on the metallurgy / heat question of doing it.
     A guy can get sort of tired of pushing a rope after a while... I have had problems with a gun that just wore me down tryng to get it right, and even when it got sort of resolved never really trusted it.

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #122 on: July 27, 2017, 07:02:48 pm »
    Mechanically, the sight dovetail could most likely be tig welded up and recut. I am not a gunsmith, so can't comment on the metallurgy / heat question of doing it.
    And then you pay for that done... and then for refinishing of the slide... This is very expensive.  And really, it's not worth it.  For less money you could just buy a new slide and barrel for it.  But after all the time and effort invested in this piece already - Maybe it's just time to write it off as a loss and move on.  Spending good money after bad starts get stupid after awhile.
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    sqlbullet

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #123 on: July 28, 2017, 11:24:41 am »
    George is right.

    This is a gun to learn gunsmithing skills on, not one to pay a gunsmith to work on. 
    Utah

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    Re: Need advice on a BHP
    « Reply #124 on: July 28, 2017, 10:07:02 pm »
    Not meaning to be an ass about this, seriously, but I'm glad it's your gun and not mine!  The Boss says that I have a Father Flanagan complex about firearms, i.e., it's not a bad gun, it's just misunderstood, and this one sounds like it would try my Christian forbearance!  Which is really too bad, because I've always kinda wanted a Hi-Power, just because.  If I ever had to carry a 9mm,  that's the one I'd want.

    Best of luck with it, and if you decide to get rid of it, post it here first.  (I think I can figure out a way to make it work, eventually.  I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain!)
    Alabama"Stand your ground!  Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here!"  Capt. John Parker

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