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Author Topic: why is this happening?  (Read 8698 times)

Feud

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Re: why is this happening?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2012, 12:10:21 am »
It should also be noted that detention is not the same as arrest.  A person can be detained and questioned without being mirandized, and such is admissible in court.  And, just because he was involuntarily committed to a mental facility does not necessarily mean he was arrested, which means no Miranda rights would be read.  It's not a crime to be insane.

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    Oregon_patriot

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #26 on: August 22, 2012, 02:05:05 am »
    And yes all those years watching TV to learn law was a waste.  Thats like watching action movies to learn gun safety.

    Ment it as a joke,I think the first part of that bit about Miranda rights was to familiarize people via something allot of people see which is tv unfortunately.



    OregonThose who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

     If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter. George Washington

    coyotesfan97

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #27 on: August 22, 2012, 04:04:49 am »
    I've had guys ecstatically happy in the jail because I was asking them questions without reading them Miranda rights and their case was getting thrown out. Yeah buddy you're right it's going away  ::)  I was filling out booking paperwork and asking for their address etc.

    There are guys you WANT to exercise their fifth amendment and shut the heck up.  Like drunks who can't remember what they've gotten arrested for even though they've been told five times or more.  Man use your Miranda rights please!  :rotfl
    ArizonaThe bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.  Thucydides 471BC

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    wyatt

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #28 on: August 22, 2012, 04:53:06 am »
    I've had guys ecstatically happy in the jail because I was asking them questions without reading them Miranda rights and their case was getting thrown out. Yeah buddy you're right it's going away  ::)  I was filling out booking paperwork and asking for their address etc.

    There are guys you WANT to exercise their fifth amendment and shut the heck up.  Like drunks who can't remember what they've gotten arrested for even though they've been told five times or more.  Man use your Miranda rights please!  :rotfl

    Res gestae

    Gunnguy

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #29 on: August 22, 2012, 08:28:45 am »
    IS the guy really insane or just very passionate about his opinion (right or wrong) and beliefs?
    FBI and SS come to local law and say, "We got a whack job we need to arrest. Really bad magumbo. Help us please?"
    And the local law automatically believes this guy IS a nutjob just because the Feds say so.
    Now if the local law KNOWS the guy is nutz and he had a record of being nuts, then ok.
    But if LEO's in the area know the guy, they know he is ok, and are confused by the Feds wanting him 'committed'.
    I'd say red flags and watch out.
    That and local law enforcement can make the arrest and put him in a hospital without Fed intervention.
    But how many of these 'whack jobs' do the Feds need to put in hospitals?
    IIRC a lot of Nazi activities, Communists activities, Socialist/Fascist activities revolved around eliminating dissenters. Stalin, Hitler, Mousilini.
    IIRC in the USA we had a lot of people put into camps for their own safety. Franklin Delano Roosevelt.
    IIRC we also had a President order the arrest and detainment of Americans who disagreed with him and were outspoken against him and his policies. Woodrow Wilson I believe.

    So this doesn't surprise me actually.
    Just possibly History repeating itself.
    Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

    Chief45

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #30 on: August 22, 2012, 10:13:51 am »
    **SNIP**
    And the local law automatically believes this guy IS a nutjob just because the Feds say so.
    **SNIP**

    not sure what world your watching,  but in my world,  we don't take a Fed's word for anything without documentation.    been burnt to many times.


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    TommyGunn

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #31 on: August 22, 2012, 11:33:13 am »
    Wasn't this guy commited to a hospital for 30 days to find out what his mental state was?  :shocked :eh
    "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero.

    Chief45

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #32 on: August 22, 2012, 03:19:56 pm »
    Wasn't this guy commited to a hospital for 30 days to find out what his mental state was?  :shocked :eh

    he would have to be screened first by a mental health professional to see if he met the criteria (danger to self or others) and then sent to a MH facility for further evaluation and treatment.  in other words, he has to be past a minimum point of crazy to even be sent to a facility.  Following the initial 30 days, he would be evaluated yet again to determine if he was safe to resume living in "normal" society.   But the initial screening would determine his mental state.

    That is the short form.   The long form, no MH professional available,  law enforcement has to make a determination (danger to self or others), have him medically screened to determine if there is a treatable medical condition and/or make sure he is medically capable of being held in a jail or MH facility.  Then an emergency committal can be done,  with the following kicker.  Within 72 hours,  we have to hold a  hearing in front of a judge with the guy physically present, in a court having jurisdiction under state law (Which means NO Federal courts at this point) , to determine his status.  Judge can order returned to the facility, transferred to regular hospital, held in jail if there is probable cause to believed that a crime has been committed,  or released.  That process, which we hate having to do,  requires an officer to make the call that he is nuts, convince a medical doctor he is nuts, take him to the nut house for not more than 72 hours, and in the mean time, convince, in writing, the District Attorney he is nuts and then convince the judge that the guy is nuts, in court, under oath.   



     



    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

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    Musashi

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #33 on: August 22, 2012, 10:43:16 pm »
    As one of the afore-mentioned local law enforcement, we were shown the evidence and agreed to help.  He was commited to a mental hospital based on what he said to officers and agents after being detained.  You guys know me, im not the bad guy.  Im not trying to round up peaceful veterans to put in concentration camps.  I cant give specifics but stop trying to paint this guy as a martyer.  Dont hitch your wagon to this nut job.
    Virginia"The Middle East is obviously an issue that has plagued the region for centuries." --Our illustrious leader OBAMA. Tampa, Fla., Jan. 28, 2010

    dot4x4

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #34 on: August 23, 2012, 12:07:58 am »
    Musashi, Not everyone is ready to jump to this guys defense.  I have been telling everyone to wait for the whole story.  I for one, will take your word on it.  Gladly. 

    By the way you have my sympathy's.  I have been involved in some locally hi profile case's before and have been in your position.  It is not one I would want to experience again. 
    Yes I live in California.  Please dont hold that against me.

    Daylight

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #35 on: August 23, 2012, 01:36:01 am »
    Incomplete initial reports often are often so incomplete.

    I look forward to learning more when it is made public through correct and legal channels. 
    Washington"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.  But, in practice, there is. "
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    Just like any other man, only more so.

    Gunnguy

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #36 on: August 23, 2012, 08:37:38 am »
    not sure what world your watching,  but in my world,  we don't take a Fed's word for anything without documentation.    been burnt to many times.



    Point taken for at least your case.
    Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

    Gunnguy

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #37 on: August 23, 2012, 08:54:05 am »
    As one of the afore-mentioned local law enforcement, we were shown the evidence and agreed to help.  He was commited to a mental hospital based on what he said to officers and agents after being detained.

    Incomplete initial reports often are often so incomplete.
    I look forward to learning more when it is made public through correct and legal channels

    And there is my rub.
    Everything is filtered directly through people and channels that don't seem to be local..
    Don't gt me wrong, if you say he is a nutjob because you know he is a nutjob, Musashi I believe you 100%.
    But if it is only because they showed you some papers and a few things, I'd be suspicious if I were you.
    They may be right, but how many LEO's and Feds does it take to arrest one man who apparently went quietly.

    Just for G & G's.
    On Firefly, River was a whack job, nutz, free spirit if you will.
    But in the end she was right. Red is her favorite food.
    LOL!



    Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

    Musashi

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #38 on: August 23, 2012, 12:11:37 pm »
    Word.
    Virginia"The Middle East is obviously an issue that has plagued the region for centuries." --Our illustrious leader OBAMA. Tampa, Fla., Jan. 28, 2010

    Evil Jim

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #39 on: August 23, 2012, 03:28:22 pm »
    Georgiahttp://gasandlead.wordpress.com
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    Oregon_patriot

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #40 on: August 23, 2012, 05:06:54 pm »
    A judge today ordered the release of a Marine Corps veteran being detained as a psychiatric patient after concerns over his Facebook postings.

    After an hourlong hearing, Circuit Judge W. Allan Sharrett said an involuntary commitment petition issued against Brandon J. Raub was invalid because it contained no allegation or basis to holding him.

    “The petition is so devoid of any factual allegations that it could not be reasonably expected to give rise to a case or controversy,” said the release order signed by the judge and sought by lawyers Anthony F. Troy and Brian D. Fowler.

    Sharrett said that he was shocked by the failure of a magistrate to not include in the order any grounds for holding Raub, a Chesterfield resident who was transferred from John Randolph Hospital in Hopewell to the Salem Veterans Affairs Medical Center.

    Cathleen Thomas, Raub’s mother, said after the hearing that as soon as an order is entered by the court, she will head to Salem to get her son.

    “This is phenomenal.” she said. “This could have happened to anyone. We’re not about allowing wrongs like this to take place.

    “This has never been about anything but freedom of speech…. We’re going to continue to post on Facebook.”

    Thomas said her son is a “true patriot” who gave up military benefits for a back injury so the money could go to another veteran.

    Raub, 26, who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, was taken into custody last Thursday after the Secret Service, FBI and Chesterfield Police arrived at his North Chesterfield home. An FBI spokesperson said the agency had received inquiries from people concerned about the nature of postings Raub had made on his Facebook page.

    Monday he was ordered to be detained for 30 days by a special justice who presides over commitment hearings. Special Justice Walter Douglas Stokes also ordered Raub to be transferred from John Randolph to the VA Hospital in Salem, about 180 miles from his home and family.

    The Rutherford Institute, a civil liberties organization based in Charlottesville, challenged Raub’s confinement, arguing that he is mentally fit and has become the target of an overzealous, unauthorized police action.

    In an interview Raub gave to a radio station from the Hopewell hospital, Raub sounded alert and clear-thinking, at one point urging the public to “educate yourself.”

    “Find and rediscover the ideas of liberty and freedom,” he said “Those are the ideas that make us great as people.”

    No information has come forward regarding what medical personnel determined is Raub’s clinical condition. Raub told the radio station that he talked with assessment personnel for about 25 minutes. It was not clear if Raub was provided with legal counsel or given anopportunity to receiveanassessment from a physician of his own choosing.

    Facebook postings by Raub generally involved impassioned pleas for a return to American ideals of freedom and independence but also speak of betrayal by elected leaders.

    “Your leaders are planning to merge the United States into a one-world banking system,” he wrote. “They want to put computer chips in you… these men have evil hearts. They have tricked you into supporting corporate fascism. We gave them the keys to our country. We were not vigilant with our republic.”

    On Aug. 15, Raub posted that “the Revolution is here. And I will lead it.”

    He went on to say, “I know many of you think I’m going crazy and are wondering just why I have been posting the things I have been posting,” he wrote Aug. 11. “I don’t have the energy to explain. Just know that a new bneginning is coming.”

    On Aug. 4 he wrote, “I am standing against a great evil. I will do it all by myself if I have to.”

    Raub told The Times-Dispatch over the weekend that he served in the Marines from 2005 until 2011 and was a combat engineer sergeant. He said he operates a home-based silver numismatic-coin business.
    OregonThose who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

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    Nick Cage

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #41 on: August 23, 2012, 05:14:47 pm »
    Looks like someone has some 'splainin to do.

    Gunnguy

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #42 on: August 23, 2012, 10:39:39 pm »
    Wow. Most of us say more passionate things about FMJ's BBQ!

    Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

    Penguin

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    Re: why is this happening?
    « Reply #43 on: August 25, 2012, 01:11:05 pm »
    After living here for a while and getting used to nice officers,I went back down to longbeach cali and was at my grandmas for my gramps funeral,I was a cop drive by and I waved to him and he glared very mean like and drove by a couple times after that as if I was suspicious. I was dressed nice and it was apparent there was a wake going on.

    Well there is your problem, you were in CA. It has been my experince that cops in CA are just jerks, the attitude is lets see what we can arrest you for. It isn't how can we help you today. I don't miss it, not one bit.
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