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Author Topic: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?  (Read 5697 times)

aikorob

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Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
« on: August 01, 2012, 05:41:45 pm »
Not sure if this is a good question, or more of a mini-rant.

I went to vote in the primary election yesterday, and 1 of the non-binding questions was: Should active duty military younger than 21 be allowed to obtain Georgia Firearms Permit?

It has always kinda chapped my butt that we put any of the under 21 restrictions on folks serving---CCW, owning a handgun, alcohol, etc.   :shrug

We trust an 18  yr old to drive an Abrahms.....but not own a Glock?
They can fix a F-18 engine, but not fix a drink when they return from deployment?

By the very fact that they have volunteered to serve, one could make the argument that their maturity/responsability level is greater than many of their peers.
Like I said, it has always bugged me.

BTW--the vote was 68% YES
GeorgiaFrom The Codex Kalachnikova: "He who would have you surrender your arms does so because he wishes to do something you could prevent by their usage."

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    bigslim3k

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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #1 on: August 01, 2012, 06:45:12 pm »
    I don't understand it, being under 21 hasn't stopped very people from drinking especially military folk. All the law does is creak a revenue stream and cause people to sneak around. If there could be a slightly more positive side to a ridiculous mind set is that it might help to keep the majority of minors safe at home drinking with there boys.

    Where CCW is concerned, as far as I can remember the military get's paid to play with guns, at least while I was in. But the CCW issue is a bit larger than just service men and women under 21 not being able to own and carry a weapon, NO service member can carry on base. That is crazy.

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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #2 on: August 01, 2012, 06:57:01 pm »
    The MILITARY puts restrictions on young service members because they're dumb and make bad decisions.  E1-E3s will run amok if not supervised.   :rotfl

    The GOVERNMENT puts restrictions on 18, 19, and 20 year olds because we, as a country, have not yet decided when you're legally an adult.  There should be one age, period, then you're legal for everything.  None of this, you're legal, but you're only a half-citizen business.  You can buy porn and cigarettes and rifles but not alcohol or handguns.  If it's 18, 19, 20, 21, it makes no difference, they just need to decide on one and have done with it.
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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #3 on: August 01, 2012, 07:33:01 pm »
    The MILITARY puts restrictions on young service members because they're dumb and make bad decisions.  E1-E3s will run amok if not supervised.   :rotfl

    The GOVERNMENT puts restrictions on 18, 19, and 20 year olds because we, as a country, have not yet decided when you're legally an adult.  There should be one age, period, then you're legal for everything.  None of this, you're legal, but you're only a half-citizen business.  You can buy porn and cigarettes and rifles but not alcohol or handguns.  If it's 18, 19, 20, 21, it makes no difference, they just need to decide on one and have done with it.


    +1  ^   :coffee   Remember a time I went to war, but couldn't by my Dad, or myself, a beer.
    HawaiiA cup of campfire coffee, in a hot tin cup, with a splash of Irish whiskey is why the Gods get up in the morning.

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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #4 on: August 01, 2012, 08:48:46 pm »
    The MILITARY puts restrictions on young service members because they're dumb and make bad decisions.  E1-E3s will run amok if not supervised.   :rotfl

    The GOVERNMENT puts restrictions on 18, 19, and 20 year olds because we, as a country, have not yet decided when you're legally an adult.  There should be one age, period, then you're legal for everything.  None of this, you're legal, but you're only a half-citizen business.  You can buy porn and cigarettes and rifles but not alcohol or handguns.  If it's 18, 19, 20, 21, it makes no difference, they just need to decide on one and have done with it.

    Oh God yes. 

    That said, I think if you have a green ID card (or whatever color they are these days) you should be able to buy as much ammo or alcohol as you want.  Even 20-some years ago it irritated me that serving military members would get UCMJ busted over "underage drinking".  What a crock.

    Back in the day once "they" spent a bunch of money on a study to figure out why sailors got tatoos.  Admiral Rickover (father of the nuclear Navy) blew up when he heard that and said "it's because their buddies get 'em drunk, that's why!"  A million or so $ later this egghead study came to the same conclusion.

    huey148

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    Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #5 on: August 01, 2012, 09:24:03 pm »
    Why shouldn't these rights also be extended to RC personnel as well?
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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #6 on: August 02, 2012, 04:49:55 am »
    It's not going to happen, of course.  If anything, they're extending childhood out further.  You have to report your parents on your student loan applications, for example, until you're 26.  The government now mandates that your parents can keep you on their insurance policy until the age of 26.  You are considered an "adult child".  Many, many people haven't even moved out of the house by that age these days.
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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #7 on: August 02, 2012, 07:37:27 am »
    The MILITARY puts restrictions on young service members because they're dumb and make bad decisions.  E1-E3s will run amok if not supervised. 
    Not just them; the officers will do it, too. 

    My sister was attatched to a 'Phoenix Banner' mission in Deleware, (flying the president's luggage around) and while she was there, one of the air crews acted up in a bar and were thrown out.  The bar owner actually called the crew's home base in Pittsburgh, and made clear that he did not want any more crew dogs in his bar for the rest of the rotation.  That's a lot of potential business to give up.

    I don't know exactly what they did, as this is second-hand.  Thankfully, my sister was underage, and so was not with the crew...



    Kaso
    « Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 09:36:09 am by Kaso »

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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #8 on: August 02, 2012, 09:24:09 am »
    Young people EVERYWHERE, military or civilian make dumb decisions.  As a young man I thought it was unfair that I could not buy a beer back home once I was in the Corps and had returned from Desert Storm.  As and older man I see that the rules are for the masses and the average young person that our society produces is not mature or responsible.

    I also remember when I could buy a beer on base under the age of 21 but that went away.  And when it did all those service men and women simply went off base to illegal parties and drank.  Then we had more DUI/DWI problems.  I believe having the lowered drinking age on base was a good thing.  It kept guys and gals close to their unit and kept them from causing problems out in town.  It gave them time to mature.

    As far as carrying on base, no one can carry concealed on base.  Its that simple.  My CCW from Texas doesn't mean squat on any military base in the country.
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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #9 on: August 02, 2012, 09:44:27 am »
    Its a shame that the most defencless places in America are our military bases.  I still like the Ogre's or Micheal Z. Williams (ala freehold) idea that every person in the military should be armed at all times. 
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    Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #10 on: August 02, 2012, 10:19:48 am »
    So when some F-16 maintainer is crawling around in the intake after they take an engine out he's supposed to have an M9 on him, too?

    Guys on subs out on patrol?

    Dental technicians giving you a root canal?

    It's simply not practical that every member of our huge armed forces be issued, trained on, and ordered to carry a pistol everywhere. It's not even a matter of money. The training would be inadequate just like most military firearms training. Half wouldn't be allowed to have a round in the chamber.

    Being armed and prepared is a choice. If you order people to do it, the effect is lessened.

    Right now, at Kandahar Air Field, you are required to have a weapon but ate. It allowed to have it loaded. You see a lot of M16s, M4s, and M9s with no mags in them.

    In the middle of a war zone, Garrison has broken out. Until they fix that (and they won't), hoping for anything but prohibiting weapons on CONUS installations is pie in the sky.

    The entire mindset of the military would need to change, not just one rule.

    CONUS and even overseas military bases are as often as not guarded by underpaid, under trained security guards. That's how not seriously the military takes protecting its people. Not only can you not carry a weapon, but the guy who does is some out of shape civilian with maybe a whole two days of training under his belt, and they pay him twelve bucks an hour.

    *shrug*. It is what it is. The military is a bureaucracy. It does bureaucratic things.
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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #11 on: August 02, 2012, 01:36:53 pm »
    I'll be sure to avoid any trips to Kandahar.

    At Camp Leatherneck everyone is in condition 3 (magazine inserted).  All clearing barrels have been remove to keep everyone in condition 3.  Most Marine bases in Afghanistan are run this way right now.

    As Nightcrawler pointed out there are a lot of jobs which it isn't appropriate to carry your firearm at all times because of your duties like dentist or aircraft mechanic.  I also believe a soldier or Marine can and should always have his rifle near.  Of course I'm talking about over here and not back in the states.

    But back on point I think that active military members should follow the rules/laws OFF base as the civilians have to follow.  On base should be another story.  We do issue 18-20 year olds pistols in certain jobs and they carry them daily.  We should also sell beer to 18-20 year olds at the base E-Clubs but that time has past and we will probably never see it again.
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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #12 on: August 02, 2012, 05:22:01 pm »
    The MILITARY puts restrictions on young service members because they're dumb and make bad decisions.  E1-E3s will run amok if not supervised.   :rotfl

    I don't know about the AF, but as fast as the Army's been promoting folks over the last decade, you can extend that up to E5.  Yes, I've actually seen a soldier who made E5 before he could legally drink (joined before he turned 18, made E5 in 3 years).

    You're also right about the extension, mostly over the last couple of generations (post WWII), of the age of non-responsibility.  Once upon a time, once you reached a certain age, you were expected to be an adult and act that way.  I think the most striking example of this I've seen was a photo, on the SF Chronicle's website, of ROTC cadets from UC Berkeley, marching into the burning city of San Francisco after the 1906 quake, rifles on their shoulders.  Can you imagine cadets from LSU being sent into New Orleans after Katrina.

    Now, I know that a certain amount of jackassery and acting up is probably to be expected from folks of that age.  But the degree to which it is not only understood, but how much society seeks to insulate them from the consequences of their actions, is asinine.  Suffering the consequences of one's stupid actions is how you learn not to do stupid things.
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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #13 on: August 03, 2012, 12:06:53 am »
    I thought the power of the US military was based on managing the otherwise random destructive potential of E1-E3, and focusing it on the enemy.  Take someone who would otherwise be driving a an imported car with more horsepower on the stereo than the engine saying "hey, watch this!" but give him an automatic grenade launcher or a 120mm smooth bore and voila! :D

    Some young people will have more judgement and sense at 18 than some folks will ever have.  Almost all young people believe they have as much or more judgement and sense than anyone else.  Some are right, most are wrong.  Trouble comes from making rules that apply to everyone. 

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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #14 on: August 03, 2012, 01:10:06 am »
    NC is right about junior E's being dumb. The only difference between them and new Lt's is that the Officers did all that dumb s___ in college, and are almost 100% of age when they commission. Even then, the only reason young Lt's don't "run amok" is because they don't get caught doing it most of the time.
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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #15 on: August 03, 2012, 01:22:59 am »
    Even then, the only reason young Lt's don't "run amok" is because they don't get caught doing it most of the time.
    They don't get caught, because they're legal.  ;)



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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #16 on: August 03, 2012, 01:33:37 am »
    Not what I meant. Running amok means more than just drinking. "Dumb s___" does not equal "drinking."
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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #17 on: August 03, 2012, 02:20:40 am »
    Running amok means more than just drinking. "Dumb s___" does not equal "drinking."
    But it often follows drinking...



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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #18 on: August 03, 2012, 02:32:31 am »
    Square vs Rectangle. Dumb s___ always follows drinking, but drinking doesn't always equal dumb s___.
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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #19 on: August 04, 2012, 12:22:19 pm »
    My opinion is that, generally, if you require young adults to act like full-fledged adults, complete with painful sanctions for failure to do so, you will get adult behavior. If you extend the 'limbo' period between childhood and adulthood, you will get extended childish behavior. People grow up when they're forced to grow up.

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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #20 on: August 05, 2012, 10:24:29 pm »
    My opinion is that, generally, if you require young adults to act like full-fledged adults, complete with painful sanctions for failure to do so, you will get adult behavior. If you extend the 'limbo' period between childhood and adulthood, you will get extended childish behavior. People grow up when they're forced to grow up.
    Bingo.



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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #21 on: August 10, 2012, 10:44:36 pm »

    Dental technicians giving you a root canal?

    It's simply not practical that every member of our huge armed forces be issued, trained on, and ordered to carry a pistol everywhere. It's not even a matter of money. The training would be inadequate just like most military firearms training. Half wouldn't be allowed to have a round in the chamber.


    *shrug*. It is what it is. The military is a bureaucracy. It does bureaucratic things.

    1st off, unless there have been some major budget cuts, dentists are still performing the root canals, not dental technicians.
    2nd many of the those that died were medical/mental health personnel, (and dental assistant falls under the 68 series of MOSs). I find it naive to deny a soldier the ability to defend him or herself based solely on MOS.
    3rd As impractical as a handgun may be to carry, it is infinitely more practical to carry than a M4.
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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #22 on: August 11, 2012, 03:39:36 am »

    +1  ^   :coffee   Remember a time I went to war, but couldn't by my Dad, or myself, a beer.

    One of my Uncles came back from Viet Nam to discover that he was too young to buy a box of 22 LR ammunition.
    CaliforniaOf course I carry a gun!  It gives me a chance against the sinners and protection from the righteous.

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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #23 on: August 14, 2012, 02:49:36 am »
    2nd I find it naive to deny a soldier the ability to defend him or herself based solely on MOS.

    There was a sign on one base I was assigned to that displayed the days since the last DUI, and the squadron that earned it. It was updated daily by the most recent offender. Of the seven months I was there, 75% of the DUI's belonged to the Security Forces Squadron.

    Sometimes stereotypes are based on fact...just sayin. :shrug
    TexasOutbreak

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    Re: Why do we put restrictions on younger Active Duty Military?
    « Reply #24 on: August 14, 2012, 08:07:51 am »
    There was a sign on one base I was assigned to that displayed the days since the last DUI, and the squadron that earned it. It was updated daily by the most recent offender. Of the seven months I was there, 75% of the DUI's belonged to the Security Forces Squadron.

    Sometimes stereotypes are based on fact...just sayin. :shrug
    Gad...82nd had a sign that displayed DUIs from the previous week, by brigade, along with days since the last fatal accident.  If they'd tried days since last DUI, I don't think it would ever get past 5.

    In fairness, I don't think any division in the Army would be much different.
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