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Author Topic: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.  (Read 30353 times)

NukMed

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Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
« Reply #75 on: June 17, 2013, 09:53:19 pm »
You don't need probable cause to start an investigation. Probable cause is an arrest standard. If I have it there's no need for an investigation to make an arrest.  Beyond a reasonable doubt is a prosecution standard for trial. Cops might continue an investigation even after having PC to make a more solid case for trial.

I'm thinking reasonable suspicion is what you're thinking.


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I'm not so familiar with the term "reasonable suspicion."  Perhaps that is the correct legal term.  I won't quibble.

To avoid any confusion I will say it in layman's terms:  You need a reason to suspect I may have something to do with some crime in order to investigate me, gather intel on me, arrest me, etc.  The fact that I'm a citizen doesn't count.  That I have a phone or use a phone doesn't count.  That I live here doesn't count.  The fact that the technological capability exists doesn't count.  The perceived need for a "haystack" to pick through doesn't count.  The fact that a previous administration did it doesn't count.

Keeping tabs on me and my activities "just because you can" is a violation of my rights.
Freedom trumps fear.  Rights trump security.  Free will trumps order.

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    booksmart

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #76 on: June 17, 2013, 09:56:21 pm »
    Scarville - never said it didn't make my skin crawl.

    But when you take 30 seconds to think of all the other data that's out there about you, it really starts to pale by comparison.

    coyotesfan97

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #77 on: June 17, 2013, 10:08:01 pm »
    I'm not so familiar with the term "reasonable suspicion."  Perhaps that is the correct legal term.  I won't quibble.

    To avoid any confusion I will say it in layman's terms:  You need a reason to suspect I may have something to do with some crime in order to investigate me, gather intel on me, arrest me, etc.  The fact that I'm a citizen doesn't count.  That I have a phone or use a phone doesn't count.  That I live here doesn't count.  The fact that the technological capability exists doesn't count.  The perceived need for a "haystack" to pick through doesn't count.  The fact that a previous administration did it doesn't count.

    Keeping tabs on me and my activities "just because you can" is a violation of my rights.

    I wasn't arguing that at all and I wasn't trying to derail this.   

    Here's reasonable suspicion defined by Cornell Law. A standard used in criminal procedure, more relaxed than probable cause, that can justify less-intrusive searches.  For example, a reasonable suspicion justifies a stop and frisk, but not a full search.  A reasonable suspicion exists when a reasonable person under the circumstances, would, based upon specific and articulable facts, suspect that a crime has been committed.

    Another one from the legal dictionary: Reasonable suspicion means that the officer has sufficient knowledge to believe that criminal activity is at hand. This level of knowledge is less than that of probable cause, so reasonable suspicion is usually used to justify a brief frisk in a public area or a traffic stop at roadside. To possess either probable cause or reasonable suspicion, an officer must be able to cite specific articulable facts to warrant the intrusion. Items related to suspected criminal activity found in a search may be taken, or seized, by the officer.

    Now I have to go read some Title 13...
    ArizonaThe bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.  Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey!  Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #78 on: June 17, 2013, 10:08:44 pm »

    But when you take 30 seconds to think of all the other data that's out there about you, it really starts to pale by comparison.

    That the information is "Out there" is a given.  But why does the Government need access to it?  What specific reason do they have for gathering information about the fact that I spoke to my sister in NY a month ago?  I commited no crime, the phone call was to wish her a happy birthday.  So why do they need a record of that call?
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    NukMed

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #79 on: June 17, 2013, 10:19:31 pm »
    I wasn't arguing that at all and I wasn't trying to derail this.   

    Here's reasonable suspicion defined by Cornell Law. A standard used in criminal procedure, more relaxed than probable cause, that can justify less-intrusive searches.  For example, a reasonable suspicion justifies a stop and frisk, but not a full search.  A reasonable suspicion exists when a reasonable person under the circumstances, would, based upon specific and articulable facts, suspect that a crime has been committed.

    Another one from the legal dictionary: Reasonable suspicion means that the officer has sufficient knowledge to believe that criminal activity is at hand. This level of knowledge is less than that of probable cause, so reasonable suspicion is usually used to justify a brief frisk in a public area or a traffic stop at roadside. To possess either probable cause or reasonable suspicion, an officer must be able to cite specific articulable facts to warrant the intrusion. Items related to suspected criminal activity found in a search may be taken, or seized, by the officer.

    Now I have to go read some Title 13...

    The part in bold is the axis upon which all I have been trying to say turns.

    Thanks for the definitions.  Now I'm going to have to add reasonable suspicion to my vocabulary. ;)
    Freedom trumps fear.  Rights trump security.  Free will trumps order.

    coyotesfan97

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #80 on: June 17, 2013, 10:26:08 pm »
    Those are some good ones. Traffic violations are covered under 13-3883.

    This level of knowledge is less than that of probable cause, so reasonable suspicion is usually used to justify a brief frisk in a public area or a traffic stop at roadside. To possess either probable cause or reasonable suspicion, an officer must be able to cite specific articulable facts to warrant the intrusion. Items related to suspected criminal activity found in a search may be taken, or seized, by the officer.

    Glad to help NukMed!  ;)
    ArizonaThe bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.  Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey!  Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #81 on: June 17, 2013, 10:46:02 pm »
    Those are some good ones. Traffic violations are covered under 13-3883.

    This level of knowledge is less than that of probable cause, so reasonable suspicion is usually used to justify a brief frisk in a public area or a traffic stop at roadside. To possess either probable cause or reasonable suspicion, an officer must be able to cite specific articulable facts to warrant the intrusion. Items related to suspected criminal activity found in a search may be taken, or seized, by the officer.

    Glad to help NukMed!  ;)

    Not trying to give you a hard time, I really want to know.  Because "I didn't know," isn't the right answer.  Ignorance of the Law is no excuse.

    13.3883.B does not give a specific statutorial reference to "Reasonable Suspicion."  I would like to know where, the standard of Reasonable Suspicion is allowed, and sanctioned by Law.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    coyotesfan97

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #82 on: June 17, 2013, 10:54:36 pm »
    No worries. I think RS is a legal standard determined in the courts. Every case is different and it'll be argued in the courtroom.

    I don't think it's been codified in Title 13.


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    ArizonaThe bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.  Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey!  Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #83 on: June 17, 2013, 11:01:32 pm »
    That's a reasonable answer.  My problem, and I believe the crux of the main discussion, is that you as Government Representative, can stop and frisk me, or gather information, because you think I might be committing a crime, based on what amounts to a 'Gut Feeling.'

    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    Thernlund

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #84 on: June 17, 2013, 11:08:39 pm »
    I just breezed this thread and immediately said to myself, "Self... you should stir that pot."

    ...

    Coyotesfan97 is a 25 year LE veteran.  I think I'm going to take his word for it.  Unless someone can present a credential that trumps that?  LE veteran?  Law degree with a criminal law specialty?  Anything?  Beuller?


    Someone else said something about liberty.  Hmmm... I went and looked up the definition of 'liberty'.  The quick-n-dirty definition seems to be this...

    "The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life."

    I'm not seeing how watching you impinges on that when said watching is never used against you or restricts you in any way.  I'm sure that sounds suspiciously like me defending the .GOV, but I'm not.  That's just an observation.  Another observation is that I can sit on a street corner and watch you, even take pictures (which I have done), and you are powerless to stop me unless I try to either use them against you or use your likeness for profit or under false pretenses.

    And Jesse makes a good point too.  What possible remedy can there be when nothing ever comes from watching you?  As mentioned, (by Bill was it?) the remedy for an infringement of your 4th amendment rights is that the info obtained can't be used against you.  So what if they never even try?

    ...

    There you go.  Enjoy.  :P


    -T.
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    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #85 on: June 17, 2013, 11:38:09 pm »
    I just breezed this thread and immediately said to myself, "Self... you should stir that pot."

    ...

    Coyotesfan97 is a 25 year LE veteran.  I think I'm going to take his word for it.  Unless someone can present a credential that trumps that?  LE veteran?  Law degree with a criminal law specialty?  Anything?  Beuller?


    Someone else said something about liberty.  Hmmm... I went and looked up the definition of 'liberty'.  The quick-n-dirty definition seems to be this...

    "The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one's way of life."

    I'm not seeing how watching you impinges on that when said watching is never used against you or restricts you in any way.  I'm sure that sounds suspiciously like me defending the .GOV, but I'm not.  That's just an observation.  Another observation is that I can sit on a street corner and watch you, even take pictures (which I have done), and you are powerless to stop me unless I try to either use them against you or use your likeness for profit or under false pretenses.
    And Jesse makes a good point too.  What possible remedy can there be when nothing ever comes from watching you?  As mentioned, (by Bill was it?) the remedy for an infringement of your 4th amendment rights is that the info obtained can't be used against you.  So what if they never even try?

    ...

    There you go.  Enjoy.  :P


    -T.

    I'm very familiar with public domain issues, I'm an avid amateur photographer.  And so long as you're not aiming that camera into my house, you are absolutely right.  You can watch me and photograph me as long as you want.  If I'm doing something interesting, more power to you, I hope they come out.  I want copies. 

    Where you're wrong is:  In a public venue, there is no reasonble expectation of privacy, so said pictures can be used commercially.

    A person aims that camera at me when I've got a reasonable expectation of privacy, in my home, in a restroom stall, whatever: They'd better be a LEO with PC and a warrant.  Otherwise, if I catch them, I'm liable to feed 'em that camera.  In reverse, sideways.  No vasaline, no reach around, no kiss.

    As for the veracity of coyotesfan97's experience.  I won't argue that.  I argue instead, the RS standard, and it's validity when compared to the US Constitution, the Arizona State Constitution (Art. 2 Sec. 8), and Arizona Revised Statutes.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    coyotesfan97

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #86 on: June 17, 2013, 11:41:51 pm »
    That's a reasonable answer.  My problem, and I believe the crux of the main discussion, is that you as Government Representative, can stop and frisk me, or gather information, because you think I might be committing a crime, based on what amounts to a 'Gut Feeling.'

    If you go to court on a Terry stop you'd better have a list of articulable factors that led you to believe that a 'crime was afoot'.  A gut feeling alone will get your case quashed quickly.  :doh
    ArizonaThe bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.  Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey!  Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

    Panhead Bill

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #87 on: June 17, 2013, 11:52:05 pm »
    OK, a database of every phone call made is just a tool and can be used for good or ill.  Now imagine a database which tracks gun owners in the US. It tracks when you go to the range, buy ammunition, take a class, etc. It tracks everything you as a gun owner do but does not associate a list of every gun you own with your name.

    If such a non-registration database still makes your skin crawl then maybe you will understand why principles matter. They matter even more when adhering to them is hard.


    Thank you!  That was exactly the analogy I needed to wrap my head around this thing. I hadn't made up my mind on it, though I was leaning towards seriously not liking it. I'm not leaning anymore - I've fallen straight into the wet cement against this thing. The risk for abuse is simply too high.

    Bill

    Also, Freeman nailed it with the "reasonable expectation of privacy" (REP). If the data they're compiling simply stuff like blog or FB, or forum posts, they can do that. But the extent if the data from phone companies that they're compiling is clearly and obviously stuff that we do not expect to be made public, and naturally falls within the REP legal principle.
    California

    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #88 on: June 17, 2013, 11:59:49 pm »
    If you go to court on a Terry stop you'd better have a list of articulable factors that led you to believe that a 'crime was afoot'.  A gut feeling alone will get your case quashed quickly.  :doh

    That goes back to the main discussion, The Gov. is acting on a 'gut feeling' and collecting evidence, prior to an actual crime being committed.  They are forcing a corporation, a legal Entity to allow them to collect information, based on a possibility of a crime being committed, maybe.  With out Due Process of Law.  I have not waived my Contitutional right against unreasonable search, and seazure.  My Phone numbers are unlisted, and un-published, they have no Constitutional authority to even know what my phone numbers are, let alone who I spoke with on them.

    I don't give a damn if the information is never seen by human eyes, it's the Flippin' Principal.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    Coronach

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #89 on: June 18, 2013, 12:19:23 am »
    "Reasonable Suspicion" (which should actually be read as "reasonable articulable suspicion", because in every instance in which you use it, you have to be able to articulate what is suspicious about the person or behavior) is not codified in law, but rather explained in case law. When you think about it this way, it makes sense:

    Assume that all there is is probable cause to arrest. There is no lower standard of proof, and no power to detain anyone unless you can arrest them immediately. Let's say that there was a crime committed, a serious one, and the description was given as a male white, 6" tall, with brown hair, blue jeans and a white t-shirt. One block away, you see a 6" tall male white, brown hair, with jeans and a white t-shirt. Can you arrest this man, drag him off in cuffs and charge him with the offense? Absolutely not! You don't know he's the guy, you don't know if the witness(es) are credible, etc.

    So, are you going to let him go? Absolutely not. He's a valid suspect, one block from the crime, matching the description to a T.

    What you need to do is conduct an investigation, and detain him while it is being conducted. You need a witness to ID him, you need to gather statements, etc. This is called an investigative detention, and it is based upon your reasonable suspicion that this person committed the crime. It may be that he just looked like the suspect. It may be that your victim is full of poo. It may be that your suspect is actually the victim, etc.

    Without a detention, based upon reasonable suspicion of criminal activity, none of that can be found out.

    Mike

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    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #90 on: June 18, 2013, 12:32:28 am »
    Still sounds like legal double talk to me, Coronach.  It seems to me, the description is probable cause to detain (read arrest), pending investigation.  And there are specific statutes to cover that.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    Coronach

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #91 on: June 18, 2013, 12:35:23 am »
    Detain does not equal arrest. A traffic stop (which in Ohio is a criminal offense, albeit a very minor one) is not an arrest, but you're also not free to leave. It's a detention.

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    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #92 on: June 18, 2013, 12:44:00 am »
     :facepalm OY!
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    scarville

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #93 on: June 18, 2013, 12:49:11 am »
    Most of the information the Stasi gathered on East German citizens was never used against them but I fail to understand how that somehow made it OK to gather it.
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    Coronach

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #94 on: June 18, 2013, 12:50:03 am »
    Quote
    Oy!
    Meaning? If you're about to say that it IS an arrest, but one that you are immediately released from, no. I can prove that conclusively, using the Ohio Revised Code.

    If I see a speeder, measure his speed and determine it is in violation of law, can I pull that car over? Yes.

    Is it an arrest? No. In Ohio, you cannot, by law, arrest for speeding (or any other minor misdemeanor offense). Ergo, a traffic stop is not an arrest, and yet it still exists, and you cannot leave from it until the officer releases you.

    It is a detention.

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    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #95 on: June 18, 2013, 12:52:31 am »
    Meaning? If you're about to say that it IS an arrest, but one that you are immediately released from, no. I can prove that conclusively, using the Ohio Revised Code.

    If I see a speeder, measure his speed and determine it is in violation of law, can I pull that car over? Yes.

    Is it an arrest? No. In Ohio, you cannot, by law, arrest for speeding (or any other minor misdemeanor offense). Ergo, a traffic stop is not an arrest, and yet it still exists, and you cannot leave from it until the officer releases you.

    It is a detsntion.

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    Legal double talk.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    JesseL

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #96 on: June 18, 2013, 12:55:12 am »
    Legal double talk or not, it's still an important distinction in the way the system functions.

    You can argue, but you'll only make yourself tired.  ;)
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    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #97 on: June 18, 2013, 01:00:28 am »
    Legal double talk or not, it's still an important distinction in the way the system functions.

    You can argue, but you'll only make yourself tired.  ;)

    I got nothin' better to do.  :neener
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    Coronach

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #98 on: June 18, 2013, 01:25:14 am »
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion

    The case law supporting reasonable suspicion (and, by extension, investigative detentions) can be found here.

    Be advised that you're entitled to your opinion (as I recently stated re: SCOTUS, there is a difference between what is legal and what is moral, or what "should be",and there's certainly room for disagreement and advocacy), but when we're talking about what is legal, there's a lot less wiggle room. YOU may think something like this is legal mumbo-jumbo, but if you end up in court, you need to know that you will be the only one in the room with that opinion. You're entitled to it, but your opinion doesn't make a bit of difference to the prosecutor, your attorney, the judge, or the empaneled jurors who will decide your fate.

    I've had similar discussions at the roadside.

    "Am I under arrest?"

    "No."

    "Then I'm leaving."

    "No, you're not."

    "Then I'm under arrest."

    "No, you're not. You're being detained."

    "That's unconstitutional, man."

    "You can think whatever you want, but you're going to continue to think it in my back seat."

    "I'm gonna have your job when I sue."

    "No, you're not. You're going to call an attorney, and he's going to tell you have no case. Now, the longer we go in circles like this, the longer it takes me to finish investigating this, and the longer you sit back there. I'm getting paid to be here, so I really don't mind. I was under the impression, however, that you had someplace else to be. Can we have a moment of silence for those who want to be released?"

    Mike
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    Panhead Bill

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #99 on: June 18, 2013, 03:59:09 am »
     :thumbup1
    California

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