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Author Topic: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.  (Read 31111 times)

JackCrow

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Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2013, 07:30:24 pm »
Welcome my son, welcome to the machine.
Where have you been?
It's alright we know where you've been.
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    booksmart

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #51 on: June 12, 2013, 11:22:36 pm »
    Excellent album. :cool

    Sensenbrenner's memory is short.

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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #52 on: June 13, 2013, 01:25:51 am »
    Al Franken's is shorter.

    http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/the-nsa-has-at-least-1-liberal-friend-left-sen-al-franken-20130611

    It's pretty lonely to be the National Security Agency right now. The revelation of a massive data-collection program has left many progressive senators criticizing the agency, from Sen. Tom Udall, D-N.M., to Sen. Richard Blumenthal, D-Conn. But one of the other most liberal senators in Congress is so far speaking out in NSA's support: Al Franken.

    Franken, the Minnesota Democrat who is on the Senate Judiciary Committee, knew about the data-mining. Or at least that's what he told Minnesota's WCCO on Tuesday. "I can assure you, this is not about spying on the American people," Franken said. The senator also believes the data collection has saved American lives:

       
    Quote
    I have a high level of confidence that this is used to protect us, and I know that it has been successful in preventing terrorism.

       
    Quote
    There are certain things that are appropriate for me to know that is not appropriate for the bad guys to know.

    Last Thursday, Franken issued a press release that expressed concern about the privacy-security balance in the NSA program.

    Franken hasn't always been so forgiving of similar practices. At a September 2009 Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on the reauthorization of expiring components of the USA Patriot Act, Franken read the Fourth Amendment to the assistant attorney general for national security as a means of questioning the act's "roving wiretap" provision. Franken would also eventually vote against a 2012 reauthorization of the FISA amendments that give the government wide surveillance authority.

    In an early 2006 AlterNet interview before he was officially running for Senate, Franken disparaged the Bush administration's NSA warrantless-surveillance program, laughing off a similar rationale to the one he's used in part to justify the current program:
    Quote
        They're trying to justify these warrantless wiretaps by saying, "Oh, it's al-Qaida!" One guy is saying it's just al-Qaida--the Hayden guy, and then on the other hand, you hear from the FBI that they were inundated with referrals on all kinds of stuff with these calls, so much so that they couldn't get to their real work, and that none of the referrals led anywhere.

       
    Quote
    I think it's a Roveian strategy: "We win on national security; we'll scare people, and then we'll just win."

    Update (5:45 PM): Sen. Al Franken's office emailed Wednesday evening to highlight several other parts of the senator's privacy and security record, including the senator's vote against the USA PATRIOT Act reauthorization in 2011 due to transparency and privacy concerns. Before voting against reauthorizing the FISA amendments last year, Sen. Franken also cosponsored and voted for three amendments that his office says would have "improved the bill on transparency and privacy." All three amendments were defeated.

    According to the senator's office, one of those defeated FISA amendments "was very similar" to a bill Sen. Franken introduced Tuesday with Senators Jeff Merkley and Mike Lee, which they say would make the FISA court's legal opinions more transparent.

    ***********

    Therein lies the problem.  It's okay when my team does it. Remember that op-ed from, I think, the New York Times, where they were wishing President Obama could be a dictator for a day? Is that what we've descended to? Get your guy elected and make him king for life?

    At least Lindsey Graham and his ilk are being consistent.  (Consistently wrong, but consistent.)  They supported this under the last President and are defending it still. Al Franken is just a hack. Even hacks enjoy having surveillance powers, apparently.
    ArizonaMOLON LABE

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    RevDisk

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #53 on: June 13, 2013, 10:45:49 am »
    I too would like to know the following:

    A: Exactly to what extent are we under surveillance by our own Gov't?
    B: How far does this Intel collection go toward violating our Constitution and subordinate laws?
    C: What safeguards are in place to prevent any current, future misuse of said Intel?
    D: Why did said "whistleblower" go to, of all places in the world, Hong Kong?
    E: What other Intel has he collected and with whom is he sharing it?

     I think this might turn out to be a great big flipping mess, of which, we have barely scratched the surface.

    I'll write up a more extensive post. But short long:

    A: Exactly to what extent are we under surveillance by our own Gov't?
    SHAMROCK started in 1945, and intercepted essentially all telegraphic messages in or out of the country.  150,000 messages a month were printed and analyzed by NSA personnel. It was shut down in May 1975 when Congress found out about it.  This led to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) and the subsequent  Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) system. As an aside, FISC approves approximately 99.999676% of all FISA warrants. 11 total warrants have been rejected out of 33949 warrants applications. This is from 1979 until 2012 (latest FISC report to Congress).

    The closest historical parallel is HTLINGUAL, which was billed as only collecting metadata (the outside of mail) to the USSR and China. In reality, the packages and letters were opened from 1952 until 1973.

    See the Family Jewels Documents for details.  Short answer: high levels since 1945, but escalating until the Church Commission. Then a lull, then escalating from Clinton, spiking during Bush and continued under Obama.


    B: How far does this Intel collection go toward violating our Constitution and subordinate laws?

    Excluding kidnapping and torture/EST which falls under "due process" and "no cruel and unusual punishment", a lot. In fairness, even if US citizens were not specifically targeted, a lot of communication goes through US telecommunication networks and the communication is not specifically marked by nationality. Imagine how many US citizens are outside of the US, or communicating in and out of the US. It's a very tough problem, period.

    However, the disclosures relate in part to allegedly intentional spying on US citizens, which falls under the Fourth Amendment and moreso Electronic Communications Privacy Act (18 U.S.C. §§ 2510–2522).  ECPA is fairly important, as SCOTUS ruled that telephone metadata was not "private".  More specifically, under Smith v. Maryland (442 U.S. 735, 744), they legalized pen registers without a warrant. Patriot Act applied this to electronic and software analogs.
     

    C: What safeguards are in place to prevent any current, future misuse of said Intel?

    None that do not already exist. The President and senior members of Congress have stated that this is nothing new (which is correct) and current infringements have been in place for decades.


    D: Why did said "whistleblower" go to, of all places in the world, Hong Kong?

    Unknown.


    E: What other Intel has he collected and with whom is he sharing it?
     
    Unknown.
    To know the darkness is to love the light,
    to welcome dawn and fear the coming night.
    - Book of Counted Sorrows

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    JackCrow

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    Arizona"First comes smiles, then lies, last comes gunfire." - Roland of Gilead

    If the reaper wants to take you, make the blighter slip on the brass. - Roper1911

    strangelittleman

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #55 on: June 13, 2013, 11:53:02 am »
    I noticed last night that Russia has offered Snowden asylum. Now that's funny!
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    Coronach

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #56 on: June 13, 2013, 11:56:52 am »
    In this case "asylum" translates into "we offer you an opportunity to be pumped for information and paraded for the cameras for propaganda purposes", but yes, it is funny.

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    goatroper

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #57 on: June 13, 2013, 02:23:20 pm »
    Ace of Spades has a good article arguing that this may be another diversion of focus from where the real crime lies -- and raising some serious questions about Mr. Snowden.  Wouldn't be the first time that's happened.

    http://ace.mu.nu/archives/340855.php
    VirginiaGoatroper

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #58 on: June 17, 2013, 07:50:20 am »
    FBI oversight hearing in front of the Senate Judiciary Committee on Wednesday. I believe it's open door and if so C-span 2 will probably be carrying it.

    booksmart

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #59 on: June 17, 2013, 10:36:53 am »
    I talked to my Dad about it (well, it *was* Father's Day) and - being a retired Naval Intelligence officer - his take on it is that Snowden should be hung. In his view, the database being accrued is basically a huge haystack.  There's so much data in there that, until you have something specific to look for, it's too overwhelming.  He did admit the potential for misuse makes it dangerous, though, so strict oversight on it was a Good Thing.

    An NPR story on it this morning said that there have only been 300 or so searches against the database, but that having access to the data had blocked attacks in something like 20 countries.

     :shrug

    JackCrow

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #60 on: June 17, 2013, 11:08:20 am »
    So as long as one doesn't do anything illegal there's nothing to worry about.
    What could possibly go wrong?  :-\   :facepalm
    Arizona"First comes smiles, then lies, last comes gunfire." - Roland of Gilead

    If the reaper wants to take you, make the blighter slip on the brass. - Roper1911

    NukMed

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #61 on: June 17, 2013, 11:41:34 am »
    I object to the blanket collection of information itself.  For some perspective, let's expand this from a discussion of phone records, to any otherwise innocuous information.

    Should the government, for future reference, be able to collect all bank transactions into a central database?  How about just every credit card purchase? After all, it's just a database that nobody will look at until you give the government a reason to.

    Should the government keep a giant database of all movies you rent or see at the theater, books you buy or borrow, or websites you visit?  You don't have something to hide, do you?

    Should the government record your location from moment to moment just in case they need to know at some time in the future?  What harm could there be in letting the government know your comings and goings?

    Should the government keep a list of all gun owners and the arms they currently have in their possession?  There couldn't possibly be anything wrong with just a list, could there?

    The principle in all these cases is the same: The government is investigating people without probable cause.  The database itself constitutes an unreasonable search and intrusion into personal privacy.  The fact that the information already may exist in private hands is irrelevant.  When law enforcement wants to investigate me (i.e. collect information on me), they should have articulable probable cause to convince a judge to issue a warrant (not a FISA court rubber stamp).
    Freedom trumps fear.  Rights trump security.  Free will trumps order.

    booksmart

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #62 on: June 17, 2013, 02:07:38 pm »
    To paraphrase Schrodinger: Is a person being investigated if his data is being collected, but never looked at?

    Here's the thing: They've got every phone call I've made over the past three months. What number I called, how long we talked, which cell tower I was using when I made the call, what business transactions occurred while I was wherever I was.  But, according to the Supreme Court, until we get to the content of those phone calls and transactions, all we're talking about is business records, not personal information.


    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #63 on: June 17, 2013, 02:18:03 pm »
    To paraphrase Schrodinger: Is a person being investigated if his data is being collected, but never looked at?

    Here's the thing: They've got every phone call I've made over the past three months. What number I called, how long we talked, which cell tower I was using when I made the call, what business transactions occurred while I was wherever I was.  But, according to the Supreme Court, until we get to the content of those phone calls and transactions, all we're talking about is business records, not personal information.

    Now you're just splitting hairs.  We're still talking about personal business information.  Without probable cause, there is no Constitutional justification for them to be collecting that information, period.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    NukMed

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #64 on: June 17, 2013, 04:27:16 pm »
    Booksmart,

    The SC is wrong.
    Freedom trumps fear.  Rights trump security.  Free will trumps order.

    Coronach

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #65 on: June 17, 2013, 04:44:10 pm »
    Legal and moral/ethical/logical are often the same thing, sometimes not. The SC also said, at various times in the past, either through decision or refusal to hear cases (which is tacit approval) that pale people can own dark people, that dark people should have to use different facilities from pale people, and that the government can seize almost anything it wants via Eminent Domain.

    Using a SC ruling to say something is legal is perfectly appropriate. Using it to argue morality is problematic.

    Mike

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    « Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 12:02:08 am by Coronach »
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    booksmart

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #66 on: June 17, 2013, 05:48:09 pm »
    Now you're just splitting hairs.  We're still talking about personal business information.  Without probable cause, there is no Constitutional justification for them to be collecting that information, period.

    I agree. But legal cases have been decided on less.

    The SC is wrong.

    They are only human. They are not right 100% of the time, and their decisions do not always stand the test of time, as Mike pointed out.

    I'm beginning to view the database much as many of us view guns: it is a tool, of no inherent value of morality until it is put into use or motion.  As such, it should be used with great caution and oversight, if it is used at all.

    And give the keys to Lucius Fox when you're done with it...  >:D

    coyotesfan97

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #67 on: June 17, 2013, 07:00:28 pm »
    My understanding is that the government needs probable cause to start an investigation on me (i.e. gather information/intel).  They can't just investigate me "for the public good."

    You don't need probable cause to start an investigation. Probable cause is an arrest standard. If I have it there's no need for an investigation to make an arrest.  Beyond a reasonable doubt is a prosecution standard for trial. Cops might continue an investigation even after having PC to make a more solid case for trial.

    I'm thinking reasonable suspicion is what you're thinking.


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    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #68 on: June 17, 2013, 07:36:15 pm »
    You don't need probable cause to start an investigation. Probable cause is an arrest standard. If I have it there's no need for an investigation to make an arrest.  Beyond a reasonable doubt is a prosecution standard for trial. Cops might continue an investigation even after having PC to make a more solid case for trial.

    I'm thinking reasonable suspicion is what you're thinking.


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    Realizing that you are a LEO, I beg to differ.  Look at the exact wording of the Fourth Amendment.

    Quote
    "and no Warrants shall issue, but on Probable Cause supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the person or things to be seized."

    You, as a LEO, have to have some kind of reason, just to speak to me in an official capacity.  You cannot simply stop me 'just because.'  A busted tail light gives you PC, for a traffic stop, but even that doesn't give you the authority to search my vehical.  Unless you believe me to be conducting a crime, with specific evidence (like the aforementioned tail light) to give you Probable Cause, you have no authority to stop me and demand my papers, let alone arrest me.

    Why on Earth, would you start an investigation without a specific reason?  Like evidence of a specific crime?
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    coyotesfan97

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #69 on: June 17, 2013, 08:16:21 pm »
    Realizing that you are a LEO, I beg to differ.  Look at the exact wording of the Fourth Amendment.

    You, as a LEO, have to have some kind of reason, just to speak to me in an official capacity.  You cannot simply stop me 'just because.'  A busted tail light gives you PC, for a traffic stop, but even that doesn't give you the authority to search my vehical.  Unless you believe me to be conducting a crime, with specific evidence (like the aforementioned tail light) to give you Probable Cause, you have no authority to stop me and demand my papers, let alone arrest me.

    Why on Earth, would you start an investigation without a specific reason?  Like evidence of a specific crime?

    What I need to get a warrant or make an arrest is probable cause. I don't need probable cause to start an investigation. Thanks for quoting me the 4th Amendment. I used it quite a bit when I was writing search warrants.

    A traffic violation is a civil violation. It's reasonable suspicion. People say what was your "PC" for the stop should be saying what was your reason. I don't need probable cause to conduct a traffic stop for no taillights.

    Did I ever say anything about starting or conducting an investigation without a specific reason? 




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    ArizonaThe bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.  Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey!  Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #70 on: June 17, 2013, 08:56:24 pm »
    Reasonable suspision for a tail light out?  Either it's out, or it isn't.

    Legal double talk.  :facepalm 

    Whatever you call it, under the 4A, and state statute, you still have to have a specific, articulable reason for making a stop.  Whether I'm driving a car, or walking down the street.  Until you have that reason, you've got no authority.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    scarville

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #71 on: June 17, 2013, 09:09:51 pm »
    OK, a database of every phone call made is just a tool and can be used for good or ill.  Now imagine a database which tracks gun owners in the US. It tracks when you go to the range, buy ammunition, take a class, etc. It tracks everything you as a gun owner do but does not associate a list of every gun you own with your name.

    If such a non-registration database still makes your skin crawl then maybe you will understand why principles matter. They matter even more when adhering to them is hard.
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    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #72 on: June 17, 2013, 09:20:24 pm »
    AMEN! Brother.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    coyotesfan97

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #73 on: June 17, 2013, 09:34:45 pm »
    Reasonable suspision for a tail light out?  Either it's out, or it isn't.

    Legal double talk.  :facepalm 

    Whatever you call it, under the 4A, and state statute, you still have to have a specific, articulable reason for making a stop.  Whether I'm driving a car, or walking down the street.  Until you have that reason, you've got no authority.

    To quote Charlie Brown "that's it!

    Actually in AZ they both need to be out but that's just some more legal double talk.  :shrug
    ArizonaThe bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.  Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey!  Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

    freeman1685

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    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #74 on: June 17, 2013, 09:45:52 pm »
    To quote Charlie Brown "that's it!

    Actually in AZ they both need to be out but that's just some more legal double talk.  :shrug

    Ok, I may not be looking in the right place.  Under ARS 13-3883, 3888, and 3898, I find no mention of "Reasonable Suspicion."

    The closest thing I can find is under 13-3899.  Is that it?
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

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