Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Author Topic: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.  (Read 30354 times)

coyotesfan97

  • WTA LEO
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 3081
  • Life's Short Bite Hard!

  • Offline
Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
« Reply #100 on: June 18, 2013, 04:16:09 am »
Mike just told you how the cow eats cabbage. That ain't legal double talk there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
ArizonaThe bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.  Thucydides 471BC

"Hey!  Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

WeTheArmed.com

  • Advertisement
  • ***

    Thernlund

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 14101

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #101 on: June 18, 2013, 04:17:09 am »
    That's hilarious.


    -T.
    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

    NukMed

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 432

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #102 on: June 18, 2013, 07:23:45 am »
    So now my question is: Who here thinks this program rises to the level of probable cause or reasonable suspicion and why?

    (If you haven't guessed yet from my previous posts, I don't think it does.)
    Freedom trumps fear.  Rights trump security.  Free will trumps order.

    Coronach

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Armorer: Colt 1911, M16, Glock, M&P, Rem 700 & 870

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #103 on: June 18, 2013, 07:40:44 am »
    I don't think it does, either. Their justification will be that, since they're not doing anything with the data (allegedly) without a FISA warrant, they're not violating anyone's rights. They're essentially just saving everything, and everything is too huge to be of any use. It's not a needle in a haystack scenario, it's a needle in a stack of needles scenario, and without the individualized suspicion that would give them enough PC for a warrant, there's no reason for them to look at anyone's data.

    I don't buy this, anymore than you do. But it's what they're going to claim. Automated datamining, which can comb through that data without human effort, is going to fall under "not the droids you're looking for", they hope.

    Mike

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

    OhioNot stressed, but I am a carrier.

    RetroGrouch

    • Senior Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 986

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #104 on: June 18, 2013, 09:44:07 am »
    Giving this much data to faceless government bureaucrats with no effective oversight is a recipe for tyrannical abuse, even if it doesn't technically rise to the level of a overt violation of my rights. 


    The potential fr cyberstalking anyone is mind boggling.


    And as has been pointed out, even the metadata reveals a lot, if it tells them who you talked when.  And it erodes the expectation of privacy.


    An issue that keeps coming up is that Snowden went to Hong Kong (China).  If he didn't want to turned over to the spooks in the USA or worse disappeared into some place without our civil protections such as they are.  An ally would turn him over in a NY minute.  A "neutral" country without the ability to prevent a snatch and grab extraction would be no better.  No, he had to go somewhere the US or her allies couldn't get him without causing an even bigger international mess than this already has.


    Hey, if this data collection isnt such a big deal, why do we care if it is revealed and who revealed it?
    Arizona

    freeman1685

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1673

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #105 on: June 18, 2013, 10:27:16 am »
    I would like to take a moment to remind those of you who remain on the fence about this:  This administration has labeled each and every member of this forum as Right Wing radicals, for nothing more than exercising our 1A rights, check.  We don't like BHO, that's another check mark.  Most of us are gun owners, check.  Some of us are Veterans, check.

    To them we are, without a single shred of evidence to support this view, right wing extremists, and potential terrorists.

    Still think it's "no big deal?"
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    booksmart

    • Token Left Leaning Idealist Libertarian
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6693
    • E. Pluribus Unum.

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #106 on: June 18, 2013, 10:33:10 am »
    *snort* They can label me right wing if they want. Doesn't make it so. :-P

    freeman1685

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1673

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #107 on: June 18, 2013, 10:34:26 am »
    *snort* They can label me right wing if they want. Doesn't make it so. :-P

    Well, there are exceptions to every rule.  :neener
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    booksmart

    • Token Left Leaning Idealist Libertarian
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6693
    • E. Pluribus Unum.

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #108 on: June 18, 2013, 10:37:21 am »
    *chuckle*

    Thernlund

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 14101

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #109 on: June 18, 2013, 02:58:15 pm »
    I would like to take a moment to remind those of you who remain on the fence about this:

    Who's on the fence? 


    -T.
    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

    Panhead Bill

    • Senior Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 727

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #110 on: June 18, 2013, 07:36:36 pm »
    Who's on the fence? 


    -T.

    Before I fully understood it?  I was.  (go figure - I didn't make up my mind until I had reviewed the facts and understood it   :o ;))

    Bill
    California

    Thernlund

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 14101

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #111 on: June 18, 2013, 07:38:28 pm »
    Oh.  Alrighty.   :)

    Facts are important.  :P


    -T.
    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

    Panhead Bill

    • Senior Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 727

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #112 on: June 18, 2013, 07:42:17 pm »
    I had to throw that in there as a dig at myself.  I have a tendency to go off full-tilt with limited information, then have to pull myself back.   :D

    Bill
    California

    strangelittleman

    • Small, Dark and Handsome
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 3155

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #113 on: June 18, 2013, 07:57:43 pm »
    I had to throw that in there as a dig at myself.  I have a tendency to go off full-tilt with limited information, then have to pull myself back.   :D

    Bill
    You and I both pal. My short temper is what gets me in deep.....Don't sweat it.
    Semper Gumby.....Always Flexible.
    Vision without action is a daydream, Action without vision is a nightmare.
    Zol zayn azoy.

    Gunnguy

    • Husband, Father, US Air Force Veteran, Scouter, Hunter, Geek, Gamer, PITA (Pain in the A$$), and future comedy star.
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4517
    • You did what with what?

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #114 on: June 19, 2013, 12:03:59 am »
    I agree that the potential leaking of personally identifiable information just via the collection is staggering.
    All of YOUR data at the touch of a button.
    Abusing it to leverage people, Senators, Representatives, Higher Officials, ad naseum...is too dangerous.
    No warrant needed if someone wants to mine your data for any other purposes.
    Like socioeconomic data for Marketing/Sales/Insider Trading?
    Or targeting you for some other reason?
    This must stop.
    Period.
    The data needs to be erased and destroyed.
    Anything else is unacceptable.


    Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

    Coronach

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Armorer: Colt 1911, M16, Glock, M&P, Rem 700 & 870

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #115 on: June 19, 2013, 12:11:20 am »
    Eliminating the constitutional argument completely, I think that the mere fact that Snowden's leak happened at all is an adequate demonstration that it is a horrible idea. Snowden was a leaker, ostensibly, for moral reasons. He just as easily could be an identity thief for profit. And any organization that could not weed out Snowden, who objects to the project for political reasons, will not weed out a thief.

    Mike

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

    OhioNot stressed, but I am a carrier.

    Gunnguy

    • Husband, Father, US Air Force Veteran, Scouter, Hunter, Geek, Gamer, PITA (Pain in the A$$), and future comedy star.
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4517
    • You did what with what?

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #116 on: June 19, 2013, 01:02:04 am »
    Eliminating the constitutional argument completely, I think that the mere fact that Snowden's leak happened at all is an adequate demonstration that it is a horrible idea. Snowden was a leaker, ostensibly, for moral reasons. He just as easily could be an identity thief for profit. And any organization that could not weed out Snowden, who objects to the project for political reasons, will not weed out a thief.

    Mike

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2


    THIS!
    Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

    Feud

    • Teller of bad jokes.
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4986

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #117 on: June 19, 2013, 07:55:40 am »
    I agree that the potential leaking of personally identifiable information just via the collection is staggering.
    All of YOUR data at the touch of a button.
    Abusing it to leverage people, Senators, Representatives, Higher Officials, ad naseum...is too dangerous.
    No warrant needed if someone wants to mine your data for any other purposes.
    Like socioeconomic data for Marketing/Sales/Insider Trading?
    Or targeting you for some other reason?
    This must stop.
    Period.
    The data needs to be erased and destroyed.
    Anything else is unacceptabl


    Well, the data is already mined for marketing purposes, and other reasons.

    This is existing information that the phone companies record and retain, some up to 18 months, for their own business purposes. That's why the NSA is able to access it under the "tangible things" provision of 50 USC §1861(a)(1). Since it is information that has been given to the phone company for business purposes it is considered a business record, and not subject to the same privacy consideration as call content.

    The phone companies keep it just as any other business keeps track of records. And just as a store might analyze value cards or a store's records for months or years to determine sales, marketing, trends, etc, the ph companies already do the same with this info. The FISA order requires those books to be accessible by the gov.

    Not saying I agree with this, but rather making the point for clarity of what's happening.

    scarville

    • Armed, Godless Heathen
    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1371

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #118 on: June 19, 2013, 05:12:24 pm »
    Eliminating the constitutional argument completely, I think that the mere fact that Snowden's leak happened at all is an adequate demonstration that it is a horrible idea. Snowden was a leaker, ostensibly, for moral reasons. He just as easily could be an identity thief for profit. And any organization that could not weed out Snowden, who objects to the project for political reasons, will not weed out a thief.

    CaliforniaOf course I carry a gun!  It gives me a chance against the sinners and protection from the righteous.

    If you are going through hell then don't stop. Keep going until you find the exit.

    Coronach

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6791
    • Armorer: Colt 1911, M16, Glock, M&P, Rem 700 & 870

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #119 on: June 19, 2013, 05:51:49 pm »
    Win.

    Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

    OhioNot stressed, but I am a carrier.

    Gunnguy

    • Husband, Father, US Air Force Veteran, Scouter, Hunter, Geek, Gamer, PITA (Pain in the A$$), and future comedy star.
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4517
    • You did what with what?

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #120 on: June 19, 2013, 11:28:43 pm »
     :facepalm
    Case closed.
     :facepalm
    Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

    goatroper

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1466

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #121 on: June 22, 2013, 10:55:52 am »
    *snort* They can label me right wing if they want. Doesn't make it so. :-P

    You're on a gun forum.  Here's your label.
    VirginiaGoatroper

    goatroper

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1466

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #122 on: June 22, 2013, 11:03:20 am »
    Giving this much data to faceless government bureaucrats with no effective oversight is a recipe for tyrannical abuse, even if it doesn't technically rise to the level of a overt violation of my rights. 


    The potential fr cyberstalking anyone is mind boggling.


    And as has been pointed out, even the metadata reveals a lot, if it tells them who you talked when.  And it erodes the expectation of privacy.


    An issue that keeps coming up is that Snowden went to Hong Kong (China).  If he didn't want to turned over to the spooks in the USA or worse disappeared into some place without our civil protections such as they are.  An ally would turn him over in a NY minute.  A "neutral" country without the ability to prevent a snatch and grab extraction would be no better.  No, he had to go somewhere the US or her allies couldn't get him without causing an even bigger international mess than this already has.


    Hey, if this data collection isnt such a big deal, why do we care if it is revealed and who revealed it?

    Just my silly opinion, but I believe it is a direct violation.  (Among many, given the direction things have gone over the past several decades with respect to the Constitution.)  And I'm not alone:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/nsa-surveillance-may-be-legal--but-its-unconstitutional/2013/06/21/b9ddec20-d44d-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html?tid=pm_opinions_pop

    NSA surveillance may be legal — but it’s unconstitutional

    By Laura K. Donohue

    Laura K. Donohue is a professor at Georgetown University Law Center and director of Georgetown’s Center on National Security and the Law.

    The National Security Agency’s recently revealed surveillance programs undermine the purpose of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which was established to prevent this kind of overreach. They violate the Fourth Amendment’s guarantee against unreasonable search and seizure. And they underscore the dangers of growing executive power.

    The intelligence community has a history of overreaching in the name of national security. In the mid-1970s, it came to light that, since the 1940s, the NSA had been collecting international telegraphic traffic from companies, in the process obtaining millions of Americans’ telegrams that were unrelated to foreign targets. From 1940 to 1973, the CIA and the FBI engaged in covert mail-opening programs that violated laws prohibiting the interception or opening of mail. The agencies also conducted warrantless “surreptitious entries,” breaking into targets’ offices and homes to photocopy or steal business records and personal documents. The Army Security Agency intercepted domestic radio communications. And the Army’s CONUS program placed more than 100,000 people under surveillance, including lawmakers and civil rights leaders.

    After an extensive investigation of the agencies’ actions, Congress passed the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) to limit sweeping collection of intelligence and create rigorous oversight. But 35 years later, the NSA is using this law and its subsequent amendments as legal grounds to run even more invasive programs than those that gave rise to the statute.

    We’ve learned that in April, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISC) ordered Verizon to provide information on calls made by each subscriber over a three-month period. Over the past seven years, similar orders have been served continuously on AT&T, Sprint and other telecommunications providers.

    Another program, PRISM, disclosed by the Guardian and The Washington Post, allows the NSA and the FBI to obtain online data including e-mails, photographs, documents and connection logs. The information that can be assembledabout any one person — much less organizations, social networks and entire communities — is staggering: What we do, think and believe.

    The government defends the programs’ legality, saying they comply with FISA and its amendments. It may be right, but only because FISA has ceased to provide a meaningful constraint.

    Under the traditional FISA, if the government wants to conduct electronic surveillance, it must make a classified application to a special court, identitying or describing the target. It must demonstrate probable cause that the target is a foreign power or an agent thereof, and that the facilities to be monitored will be used by the target.

    In 2008, Congress added section 702 to the statute, allowing the government to use electronic surveillance to collect foreign intelligence on non-U.S. persons it reasonably believes are abroad, without a court order for each target. A U.S. citizen may not intentionally be targeted.

    To the extent that the FISC sanctioned PRISM, it may be consistent with the law. But it is disingenuous to suggest that millions of Americans’ e-mails, photographs and documents are “incidental” to an investigation targeting foreigners overseas.

    The telephony metadata program raises similar concerns. FISA did not originally envision the government accessing records. Following the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, Congress allowed applications for obtaining records from certain kinds of businesses. In 2001, lawmakers further expanded FISA to give the government access to any business or personal records. Under section 215 of the Patriot Act, the government no longer has to prove that the target is a foreign power. It need only state that the records are sought as part of an investigation to protect against terrorism or clandestine intelligence.

    This means that FISA can now be used to gather records concerning individuals who are neither the target of any investigation nor an agent of a foreign power. Entire databases — such as telephony metadata — can be obtained, as long as an authorized investigation exists.

    Congress didn’t pass Section 215 to allow for the wholesale collection of information. As Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (R-Wis.), who helped draft the statute, wrote in the Guardian: “Congress intended to allow the intelligence communities to access targeted information for specific investigations. How can every call that every American makes or receives be relevant to a specific investigation?”

    As a constitutional matter, the Supreme Court has long held that, where an individual has a reasonable expectation of privacy, search and seizure may occur only once the government has obtained a warrant, supported by probable cause and issued by a judge. The warrant must specify the places to be searched and items to be seized.

    There are exceptions to the warrant requirement. In 1979 the court held that the use of a pen register to record numbers dialed from someone’s home was not a search. The court suggested that people who disclose their communications to others assume the risk that law enforcement may obtain the information.

    More than three decades later, digitization and the explosion of social-network technology have changed the calculus. In the ordinary course of life, third parties obtain massive amounts of information about us that, when analyzed, have much deeper implications for our privacy than before.

    As for Section 702 of FISA, the Supreme Court has held that the Fourth Amendment does not protect foreigners from searches conducted abroad. But it has never recognized a foreign intelligence exception to the warrant requirement when foreign-targeted searches result in the collection of vast stores of citizens’ communications.

    Americans reasonably expect that their movements, communications and decisions will not be recorded and analyzed by the government. A majority of the Supreme Court seems to agree. Last year, the court considered a case involving 28-day GPS surveillance. Justice Samuel Alito suggested that in most criminal investigations, long-term monitoring “impinges on expectations of privacy.” Justice Sonia Sotomayor recognized that following a person’s movements “reflects a wealth of detail about her familial, political, professional, religious, and sexual associations.”

    The FISC is supposed to operate as a check. But it is a secret court, notorious for its low rate of denial. From 1979 to 2002, it did not reject a single application. Over the past five years, out of nearly 8,600 applications, only two have been denied.

    Congress has an opportunity to create more effective checks on executive power. It could withdraw Sections 215 and 702 and introduce new measures to regulate intelligence collection and analysis. There are many options.

    James Madison put it best: “In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.”
    VirginiaGoatroper

    goatroper

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1466

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #123 on: June 22, 2013, 12:02:31 pm »
    Roger Simon for the win:

    In the new world of the NSA, the only secret left is Barack Obama's college grades.

    https://twitter.com/rogerlsimon/status/348177114295582722
    VirginiaGoatroper

    TommyGunn

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 3017
    • MOLON LABE

    • Offline
    Re: What is PRISM? An NSA SIGINT Surveillance Program.
    « Reply #124 on: June 22, 2013, 01:10:35 pm »
    Roger Simon for the win:

    In the new world of the NSA, the only secret left is Barack Obama's college grades.

    https://twitter.com/rogerlsimon/status/348177114295582722
    Aren't his health records equally classified? :scrutiny
    "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero.

    Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.