Author Topic: Ukraine conflict heats up (Read 18734 times)

aikorob · « **on:** July 17, 2014, 12:07:02 pm »

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/here-real-time-flight-path-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh-17

commercial airliner apparently shot down

WeTheArmed.com

stephendutton · « **Reply #1 on:** July 17, 2014, 12:24:14 pm »

Sky News in the UK is saying that the altitude put the aircraft beyond the range of anything shoulder fired. They're saying it's a 'Buk'. Separatists and Ukrainian government are blaming each other (nothing surprising there), while the Russians are keeping quiet.

booksmart · « **Reply #2 on:** July 17, 2014, 01:01:09 pm »

10,000 m...

Ukrainian officials are claiming one of these as the culprit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

The optimist in me is saying this doesn't end well... the cynical side of me is saying "SS,DD..."

Prayers for the families.

http://news.sky.com/story/1302864/malaysian-plane-shot-down-with-295-on-board

aikorob · « **Reply #3 on:** July 17, 2014, 03:31:58 pm »

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-separatist-leader-boasts-downing-plane/25460930.html

Bud · « **Reply #4 on:** July 17, 2014, 04:20:49 pm »

Missile now confirmed. The separatists are now denying that ever claimed that they downed a Ukrainian supply plane this morning.
I think Putin's people just screwed the pooch

Bud

ksuguy · « **Reply #5 on:** July 17, 2014, 04:25:14 pm »

Yeah one side or the other screwed up. Now we wait and find out who it was.

booksmart · « **Reply #6 on:** July 17, 2014, 04:36:06 pm »

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/separatists-admit-downing-a-civilian-plane-in-tapped-conversation-full-transcript-356545.html

With transcripts discussing the downing...

ksuguy · « **Reply #7 on:** July 17, 2014, 04:38:18 pm »

Wouldn't surprise me. The separatists don't have much of an air force. The Ukranians wouldn't have a reason to be shooting at anything in the sky.

aikorob · « **Reply #8 on:** July 17, 2014, 07:22:49 pm »

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fitar-tass.com%2Fmezhdunarodnaya-panorama%2F1287030&edit-text=&act=url
from last month---they may not have an airforce, but it looks like they have SAMs

Coronach · « **Reply #9 on:** July 17, 2014, 07:32:06 pm »

Here's the real question: why in the **** are commercial airliners flying over a shooting war?

Mike

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booksmart · « **Reply #10 on:** July 17, 2014, 09:16:38 pm »

Reasonable question, but it is apparently a pretty heavily traveled route...

Coronach · « **Reply #11 on:** July 17, 2014, 11:10:11 pm »

I bet it won't be now.

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stephendutton · « **Reply #12 on:** July 18, 2014, 02:41:32 am »

Quote from: Coronach on July 17, 2014, 07:32:06 pm

Here's the real question: why in the **** are commercial airliners flying over a shooting war?

Mike

Sent from Lusitania via ansible.

Those that had been ignoring the warnings were doing so to save fuel I believe.

booksmart · « **Reply #13 on:** July 18, 2014, 11:19:24 am »

Quote from: Coronach on July 17, 2014, 11:10:11 pm

I bet it won't be now.

Another forum I'm on had a thread following the tragedy, and somebody posted a pic of commercial flights in the air worldwide.

There was clear air for about 500 miles in any direction from that spot.

Here ya go:

http://www.businessinsider.co.id/ukraine-airspace-map-2014-7/#.U8k63_ldXmc

Ctwilly49 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 18, 2014, 01:08:05 pm »

Faux "COMMANDER IN CHIEF" Press Conference ... 283 deaths: Express Grief... Promise Investigation .... Go to Teleprompter to continue Statement ! Now, off to Martha's Vineyard for some R&R on the Tax Payers Dime !
With all that is happening in our Country this spineless Lier is off to play some Golf, yet again ! How is this Person still running this Country? Regardless of Political preference, how hard is it to see this WOLF IN SHEEPS CLOTHING FOR WHAT HE REALLY IS? A twice elected " CAR SALESMAN" ( That's not fair to Car Salesmen ! )
GOD HELP US, this divided Country is heading to a " VERY DARK PLACE" ! CONGRESS, PLEASE STEP UP TO THE PLATE!

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Outbreak · « **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2014, 01:49:32 pm »

And in this situation, what's wrong with that? This is NOT AMERICA'S PROBLEM. I'd rather he play golf than get us involved in this mess.

What would you propose he do? Send troops in? Airstrikes? You know who does those things? Me, and Nightcrawler, and Fiesta Resistance, and I know there are others around here, we get to go risk life and limb, squander millions or billions, and for what? Someone please explain to me what benefit America would receive by "doing something" in Ukraine?

It's real easy to call for action when you don't have any skin in the game.

Coronach · « **Reply #16 on:** July 18, 2014, 03:03:17 pm »

I don't think anyone is advocating armed intervention. In this case, even airstrikes (the new chicken hawk preferred MO) aren't wise. What I think everyone is lamenting is our lack of leverage, which we squandered under Obama. Having leverage, created by diplomacy and military strength, actually prevents you from having to go bomb people.

The problem is, once you've lost it, it's like a pirate that's gone soft. Work work work.

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Feud · « **Reply #17 on:** July 18, 2014, 03:39:08 pm »

The Ukrainians have been making gains lately. If the public outcry is enough to get Russia to back of the money and heavy weapons, then I don't think there's a need for outside military involvement.

Grant · « **Reply #18 on:** July 18, 2014, 03:54:27 pm »

Quote from: Coronach on July 18, 2014, 03:03:17 pm

I don't think anyone is advocating armed intervention. In this case, even airstrikes (the new chicken hawk preferred MO) aren't wise. What I think everyone is lamenting is our lack of leverage, which we squandered under Obama. Having leverage, created by diplomacy and military strength, actually prevents you from having to go bomb people.

Ditto. Plus the fact that at least someone like Bush, even if he wasn't going to intervene, wouldn't make a point of looking like he is lounging around while s___'s going on around the world.

Feud · « **Reply #19 on:** July 18, 2014, 04:03:27 pm »

I wasn't aware he was in Martha's Vineyard, his schedule had him in DC all day.

Ctwilly49 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 18, 2014, 04:35:28 pm »

Outbreak : Agree, Apologize for being non-specific, was referring to in Country current Affairs and so many Administrative lies and inability to agree or fix anything ! And no I don't believe we belong in Ukraine or Mideast ! Also would like to thank you and all for your service to our Country.

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RetroGrouch · « **Reply #21 on:** July 19, 2014, 01:45:18 am »

Actually, on some level, this IS America's problem. When the old Soviet Union broke up, Ukraine had a lot of nuclear weapons. We, (and the Russian Federation, interestingly) signed a treaty (which I believe was ratified) with Ukraine to defend them militarily if they were invaded in exchange for them giving up the nukes.

Yes the Ukraine effed up by trusting either us or the Russians, but this current situation would not exist if we let Ukraine keep those weapons.

I wouldn't propose air strikes or giving them nukes, but I would give the Ukrainians weapons that would convince Russia their current activities are a very bad idea.

Splodge Of Doom · « **Reply #22 on:** July 19, 2014, 11:46:16 am »

Quote from: RetroGrouch on July 19, 2014, 01:45:18 am

Actually, on some level, this IS America's problem. When the old Soviet Union broke up, Ukraine had a lot of nuclear weapons. We, (and the Russian Federation, interestingly) signed a treaty (which I believe was ratified) with Ukraine to defend them militarily if they were invaded in exchange for them giving up the nukes.

Yes the Ukraine effed up by trusting either us or the Russians, but this current situation would not exist if we let Ukraine keep those weapons.

I wouldn't propose air strikes or giving them nukes, but I would give the Ukrainians weapons that would convince Russia their current activities are a very bad idea.

Here's the wikipedia article on the agreement in question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

Apparently it doesn't guarantee military intervention, but does provide justification for it.

aikorob · « **Reply #23 on:** August 28, 2014, 07:06:12 am »

Russkies are getting more overt:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/26/russia-admits-soldiers-in-ukraine
http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/national/2014/08/us_russia_directing_new_offensive_in_ukraine

and this is getting passed around a lot:
https://twitter.com/more_b4_9am/status/504384510473928704

Avenger29 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 28, 2014, 06:57:00 pm »

Quote

Russkies are getting more overt:

Putin/Russia...they are not idiots.

They know that they can bully and pull stunts and nothing will actually happen.

You don't necessarily have to go to war but you need leadership that seems mean enough to do so if necessary. Right now we have the very milquetoast Obama, and Russia is proving that not only is he a very weak leader, but that they face no retribution for horrific actions. Basically, they are showing that they are very strong in leadership and appearance while the traditional ruler of the block is weak.

And believe me, for over 20 years Russia has been dreaming of regaining their strength, ever since the collapse of the USSR. Back then they were respected and feared but after the fall from grace they've been ignored and dismissed as nobody.

We need an iron leader, someone with resolve and fortitude to face down Putin and other problematic people and countries. And I don't think we are going to get that kind of person for a while yet.