Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Author Topic: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap  (Read 7841 times)

Nightcrawler

  • WTA Secretary of Defense
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 6280
  • That's what SHE said!

  • Offline
TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
« on: August 05, 2012, 12:25:26 am »
Found this article while perusing the internet before bed. 

Be advised, the author is extremely opinionated.

LINK

Quote
TEOTWAWKI = The End of the World as We Know It

The belief that some sort of ‘game changing’ event will turn the US and the rest of the 1st world into some sort of Mad Max country where people barter for food and water has been around since I first got into survivalism when I was a kid in the 80’s.

And it still seems to be a widely referred to scenario even to this day, probably even more so now due to the internet. When reading some blogs and forums you see TEOTWAWKI mentioned as one of the reasons why someone does something that inevitably ends up in some sort of purchase.

I have come to the conclusion that TEOTWAWKI is exactly like Halloween, they are both something invented by businesses, writers and corporations to convince people to part with money.

But unlike Halloween (something that will happen every year with 100% certainty) TEOTWAWKI will never happen in the US, especially to the post-apocalyptic level some people preach or believe.

The following are some typical popular TEOTWAWKI scenarios and why I believe they will never happen. Note: When I say “US” that is generally referring to any wealthy 1st world country.

    Economic Collapse in the US will cause TEOTWAWKI

This is probably one of the more popular scenarios that would cause TEOTWAWKI these days, and considering the state of the US economy I can see why it is a convincing marketing ploy. The subprime mortgage crisis, massive US debt, extremely high unemployment and so on seems pretty scary from a financial prospective.

But would the US falling into economic ruin really cause TEOTWAWKI?

No

Do you want to know what the US will look like if it falls 20 spaces down from the top of the economic ladder? Just visit the UK or France because that’s what it will look like, they were both at the very top of the economic chain and now they have fallen about 20 levels.

No roving gangs of cannibals, no trading cans of peaches for clean water or any other TEOTWAWKI stuff on the streets of Paris or London. They are just not as wealthy anymore, that’s it, that’s all that happened when they fell head first down the economic ladder after major financial FUBAR’s.

Lets say the US financially collapses 40 levels down the economic ladder, then it will be like Barbados, Saint Kitts and Nevis and Malta (all popular vacation spots) – not horrible 3rd world hell-holes by any means.

How about if the US falls 100 levels down the economic ladder? Then it will be like China, Fiji and Thailand, I have been to 2 of those countries and they are quite nice, not quite 1st world but hardly post-apocalyptic.

For the US to turn into some sort of hell-hole post-apocalyptic 3rd world country it would have to drop about 160 levels down the economic staircase. And that wont happen.

The US simply has too many industries, an effective income and corporate tax collection service, powerful military, 1st world political allies and thousands of other reasons why it will never fall more than 20 levels down the economic ladder.

And thinking that the US will somehow fall 160 levels down the economic ladder turning the US into Sierra Leone is just silly.

So the absolute worst thing that will happen if the US economy takes a s___ is we will have a day-to-day lifestyle similar to the Brits.

    A CIVIL WAR will cause TEOTWAWKI

You know why civil war will never happen in the US?

Well, let’s first look at what you need to have a war:

1. Money
2. Money
3. Money

No war can be fought without aircraft carrier sized blocks of cash; lack of money is one of the reasons why the south lost during the American Civil war. It is also the reason why the US won the Cold War; we had more money to burn than the commies did.

Now answer this question:

Of all the socioeconomic groups in America who will suffer the most if civil war swept across the US?

Rich people

Why would the wealthiest 2% in the US finance a civil war that would make them poor people?

They won’t – because they are greedy

Done.

    A PANDEMIC will cause TEOTWAWKI

I love this one; the chicken flu has probably made more millionaires and billionaires than the threat of nuclear war did in the 70’s and 80’s.

Some people have pointed out to me that global pandemics have already happened so they are a realistic scenario (that a billion people may die and economically and politically destroy the world). And during those pandemics the pharmaceutical companies were unable to find a cure or some other way to medically control the spread in a timely manor.

First of all, compared to other diseases the chicken/pig/tyrannosaurus rex flu really didn’t even kill many people. More people die of the clap every year than they do from a media hyped flu pandemic. The reason why people think some Asian flu was so devastating and unstoppable is because the news outlets have realized reporting on “scary” pandemics is the same as printing gold plated money.

But in reality they weren’t that bad and even with some countries covering up infections all of the flu pandemics were brought under control killing less people than diarrhea did in the same years.

What about the point that the pharmaceutical companies were unable to quickly find a cure or some other way to medically control the spread?

The pharmaceutical companies were all working in competition with each other to come up with a treatment or vaccination, buy doing that they kept research to themselves, therefore slowing down the process of finding some sort of pharmacological solution. They also had no financial incentive to make a ‘one pill’ cure when treating or vaccinating is substantially more profitable.

In a “real” pandemic where a flu like disease spreads across the globe threatening to wipe out the entire planet then the pharmaceutical companies would have no choice but to work together (or they would just be federalized) to find a treatment or cure.

The simple truth why pandemics like the bird flu spread, kill so many people and take such a long time to find a treatment for is simple greed.

When you take out the money factor in pharmaceutical science and have every top scientist at every major pharmaceutical corporation working together to find a cure or treatment you wont see 22 month waits before pharmaceutical solutions are found or vaccination shortages (to push up the price) anymore.

    In Conclusion…

Economic Collapse, Civil War and Pandemics are probably the most talked about TEOTWAWKI causing events. There are a bunch more that I left out because I thought they were so ridiculous I didn’t even want to waist your valuable time debating them.

So that’s basically why I believe the TEOTWAWKI theory is just a ploy to get people to buy s___. None of the above scenarios for causing TEOTWAWKI are realistic so I cant think of any other reason to even mention them except to bring people to your website, survival business or to buy your books.

The whole TEOTWAWKI thing reminds me of the Commie Nuclear scare during the 80’s – most survivalist were completely convinced that there would be ether a land war in Europe, invasion in America or a nuclear war.

Because of those fears (when looked at now are just silly) a multi-billion dollar survivalist business was created. Hell, I even bought anti-radiation dugs to fend off radiation sickness after the ‘big one’ happened and my friends bought a s___-load of guns and ammo to fight the commies on their front porches.

And it turned out that the Russians weren’t hiding a plan to destroy America, they were just hiding extremely hot women.

And allot of people got rich off of marketing to our fears

So in my opinion if you are buying and storing grain in your basement, buying a ton of guns, years worth of long term storage food and covering your house in tinfoil you should sell all of that s___ and pay down your credit cards or send your kid to a good private school.

—————————————————————————————

~James G
Founder – Editor in Chief

James G is a Veteran Civilian Contractor who has worked in the Middle East and Southeast Asia for way too long. He spends his off time in Indonesia and Virginia getting drunk, shooting guns, writing poorly written articles and grinding flour in his moms basement.

On one hand, he makes a valid point.

On the other hand, he's operating on a set of assumptions that life in the US will endure, more or less how it always has, no matter what.  This may or may not be a safe assumption.
ArizonaMOLON LABE

Retired Bomb Guy
Semi-Pro Hack Writer

WeTheArmed.com

  • Advertisement
  • ***

    Chief45

    • WTA LEO
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2436

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #1 on: August 05, 2012, 12:32:27 am »
    actually,  his biggest assumption is that anything that happens,  happens in a vacuum.  that some major catastrophe only happens in, and only effects, the USA.  he did set up some fair straw-man arguments, but that's all they are. 
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

    Non Timebo Mala . . . . . . . I will fear no evil. . .

    It is what it is. . . . . .It's All Good.

    Colin

    • Curmudgeon
    • Senior Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 920
      • Apocalypse Barbell

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #2 on: August 05, 2012, 01:56:52 am »
    I've though for a LONG time about how things could go south, and we could end up much like afghanistan or some other third world country long before theres anarchy.  That would be a gradual, painful financial collapse that would not necessarily have people rioting in the streets. But third world countries are set up to be thrid world countries, there's a certain amount of bare minimum self sufficiency involved. 

    Any number of things could happen that would cause a real hiccup in our supply chains and ability to feed people or provide medications.  Many locales won't last long as soon as groceries don't flow in at the amazing rate we keep up.  And we aren't set up for that. 

    I think there's a valid point about how people make money off selling survival supplies, and sometimes folks use scare tactics, but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean the world isn't out to get you. If everyone had a few months supply of food, water, and necessities, then we wouldn't have to worry as much about things breaking down. 

    The one thing I agree with here is that things can get really, really bad, without it becoming anarchy.  Other than that I don't think he's factored in sudden change in a society utterly unprepared for it. 

    Like Chief said about vacuums, any decline in the U.S. means alot of people in the world aren't fed, and other countries are suddenly destabilized, and there's a huge global power shift, with the new folks in charge not being friendly at all to the U.S., and there being alot who'd like to "make us pay" for all the things we will no doubt be blamed for. 

    I think some kind of order will always arise from the chaos, but it could be a real, real rough year before that happens, and even then you've got to reconcile a whole bunch of different factions with different ideas of who should be in charge, and you've got to get food supplies to feed millions of people back up and running. 

    He mentions france and the U.K., without mentioning the fact that most 1st world countries are way overextended, borrowing against the future so the wards of the state can enjoy month long vacations abroad.  Someday that system will either collapsed or be replaced with a different kind of system. I think he is purposely overlooking that fact. 

    He seems to think the idea of a barter economy is ridiculous.  Alot of people are already making a sort of underground barter economy, just to get around onerous regulation, particularly when it comes to food.  Any and every communist country in the world currently has a huge underground barter economy.  There's alot of folks in north korea who are only able to survive on that.  So much for his great tax systems. 

    Civil war?  There's always someone who can profit.  Paper money which may be degraded altogether in the type of circumstances he discusses may not be much of a consideration when thinking of civil war, it will likely be about freedom and control, between two sides of the populace, those who want to keep their freedom and stuff, and those who want it. I'll fight to keep my stuff without being paid, and the other guy will fight to take my stuff without having one of those "evil, greedy, rich guys" paying him a salary of inflated dollars to do so.  It may or may not consist of large organized bodies of folks who are already starting to migrate from one area to another. 

    Its food for thought but I think he leaves out quite a bit on each point.     

    sarge712

    • WTA LEO
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 5855
    • Just a teddy bear fulla luv, bub

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #3 on: August 05, 2012, 07:14:19 am »
    This guy is as head in the sand as it gets and is full of wishful thinking.

    At risk of beating a dead horse, an EMP attack as outlined in the book One Second After, could do it in one attack. Read the book. Its worth the time. I just saw it in trade paperback size last week at my local book store. It is read and studied at West Point and at government think tanks. Its very plausible and is based on existing technology and threats.
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    ZeroTA

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2969
    • Minister of Random Punishments

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #4 on: August 05, 2012, 09:05:55 am »
    His arguments are correct within narrow parameters, but any drastic change in the US will have friends and enemies alike sniffing around. As stated, nothing happens in a vacuum.

    There will likely not be a true post apocalyptic wasteland of s***ty cars and stealing clothes from corpses and mutant scorpions the size of a school bus and roving hordes of neo-punk barbarians. We will not see TEOTWAWKI, but more like A Somewhat Less Comfortable Situation Than We're Accustomed To.
    At any rate there's a lot of capitalistic opportunists out there. Someone will find a way to get necessary products from A to B if there's enough profit. Our cash system may morph into something entirely different. Even then we will not likely completely run out of anything. Rationing is not very far fetched though.

    Riots and gangs will IMO not be a problem except if support to the inner cities gets cut off. Even that will flare up and burn out, just like it always does.

    We've always had more good folks than bad and it's easy to lose sight of that in the gloom-n-doom discussions. Good folks will band together and we'll plow on through whatever gets dished out to us. We always have.
    I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't.

    Evil Jim

    • Manster
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2997
    • Manster
      • Evils Thoughts...

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #5 on: August 05, 2012, 09:51:05 am »
    There are to many scenarios of what COULD happen to keep track of.
    Are the preparations that many preppers are doing going to pay off?
    To an extent... yep.
    Many are buying lots of things in bulk, and as such getting lower prices on them.
    They are growing their own food and living off the grid, hooked to solar and wind power.
    I fail to see how being more self sufficient will be a bad thing at any time under any circumstance.
    Will it be needed?
    Honestly, I really hope not.
    But if it doesn't make a hardship for your family while you are preparing for a "what if", I dont see it as a bad thing.


    Jim
    Georgiahttp://gasandlead.wordpress.com
    Quote
    Moral of this lesson:
    Don't get in any gun fights with buffalo hunters. There ain't no such thing as cover.

    Gunnguy

    • Husband, Father, US Air Force Veteran, Scouter, Hunter, Geek, Gamer, PITA (Pain in the A$$), and future comedy star.
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4517
    • You did what with what?

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #6 on: August 05, 2012, 11:31:01 am »
    After living 5 days without electricity, and knowing how upset the neighbors were getting with me having a generator, A/C, food, and communications...I find anyone who is against the Scout Motto: 'Always be prepared.' is a fool or delusional.
    I have lights, Check.
    Spare food, Check.
    Generator with 3 days fuel, Check.
    Siphon JIC, Check.
    Bug out bags, check.
    Emergency this is my property backup reinforcement security devices (Fire arms) and know how to use them, Check.
    Watching my neighbors go to war over bug spray, ramen noodles, and bottled water? Priceless!

     :facepalm

    Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

    TommyGunn

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 3016
    • MOLON LABE

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #7 on: August 05, 2012, 12:52:07 pm »
    Quote
    A CIVIL WAR will cause TEOTWAWKI

    You know why civil war will never happen in the US?
    :scrutiny :scrutiny
    A Civil War has already happened in the US. :facepalm


    Re:
    Quote
    TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap.


    Oh goody, now I don't have to worry about prepping ever again.  :rotfl

    Quote from: Chief45
    actually,  his biggest assumption is that anything that happens,  happens in a vacuum.  that some major catastrophe only happens in, and only effects, the USA.  he did set up some fair straw-man arguments, but that's all they are.
     
    Quoted for truth.

    My biggest fear is an economic collapse.  Mainly that's because we're 15+ trillion dollars in debt and getting worse, with apparantly no one really doing anything about it.  Maybe an economic collapse alone wouldn't fill our streets with "zombies" but what happens afterwards?  Would it be "just" a collapse?   And what of the fact europe is in a similar boat -- just a little ahead of us?
    Being taken town "20 paces" to England's level?  What is "20 paces," anyway?  What does 1 pace equal?
    I've been to England and while most there aren't as wealthy as some here (such as well-off New Yorkers, where it's truly expensive to live) England is a quit livable country.
    I wonder how many "paces" down from us the Weimar Republic would be considered?
     :nervous :(
    "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero.

    Gunnguy

    • Husband, Father, US Air Force Veteran, Scouter, Hunter, Geek, Gamer, PITA (Pain in the A$$), and future comedy star.
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4517
    • You did what with what?

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #8 on: August 05, 2012, 06:46:07 pm »
    IIRC, the Weimar Republic was saddled with ALL of the WWI debt plus a lot of penalties for starting the war.
    Many restrictions on their businesses were brutal all thanks to Woodrow Wilson's 'League of (Extraordinary) Nations'. Emphasis added.
    Toward the end of the Weimar the people were burning the paper currency for fuel because it was so worthless. People were paid 3 times a day at one point because inflation was so rampant if the businesses waited, they would have to pay their employees more so it was worth paying them multiple times a day. People were paying their debts off faster because they took advantage of the inflated pay to pay off debts that could not be updated faster to keep up. Thus the banks and the people being owed money were losing money everyday. It was a financial mess and a nightmare.
    Not one of America's finer moments concerning post WWI Germany.

    Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

    Daylight

    • Medlers, Fumblers & Idlers Local 23
    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1956

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #9 on: August 06, 2012, 03:14:08 am »
    I grew up sailing.  My father taught me "Sail your own boat.  When you go out, have a plan on how you will get yourself back.  Never expect anyone to rescue you from your failure to plan and prepare."  I try to live that.  When I sailed commercially, and when I worked with hazmat, there was lots of training, drills, and tabletop exercises.  While there have been many interesting incidents, none have been exactly like a drill or exercise--but that practice helped set a mindset and skill set to cope with the unexpected or unforeseen.  And we very often incorporated those incidents into future training for ourselves and others.  My non-professional life has also included plenty of interesting and unexpected events.

    Many years back one of my professors asked, "you're one of those survivalists, aren't you?"  My answer was no, I am a survivor:  I will get through whatever the world throws at me. 

    RevDisk has shared some excellent information about assessing local risks, evaluating response and preparing accordingly. 

    Straw man arguments aside, the odds of any global catastrophic scenario are small.  But the mental and physical preparation that makes one better able to survive a given event, also makes one better able to deal with other events.
    Washington"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.  But, in practice, there is. "
    - Jan L.A. van de Snepscheut

    Just like any other man, only more so.

    RevDisk

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2790
      • RevDisk dot Net

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #10 on: August 06, 2012, 08:38:02 am »
    This guy is as head in the sand as it gets and is full of wishful thinking.

    At risk of beating a dead horse, an EMP attack as outlined in the book One Second After, could do it in one attack. Read the book. Its worth the time. I just saw it in trade paperback size last week at my local book store. It is read and studied at West Point and at government think tanks. Its very plausible and is based on existing technology and threats.

    I can list you all my experience and qualifications if you required it. Nation wide EMP attack is unlikely due to simple physics.  Area effect is certainly possible. Larger the area, less damage, as it decreases exponentially.  So state or several states, maybe.  Entire US, not likely.  Two countries could pull it off with great expense, but it is very noticable.  Neither will because both countries have nuclear subs with nuclear missiles.

    In short, more hype than not.

    Remember, we set off about a thousand nukes thus far.  No nuclear winter, and electronics were mostly fine.  It would be annoying and expensive attack, but not end of the world.  A hundred cruise missiles into dams, power plants, etc would be more effective and far cheaper.  Which incidentally is SOP for our military. 



    To know the darkness is to love the light,
    to welcome dawn and fear the coming night.
    - Book of Counted Sorrows

    RD dot Net

    goatroper

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1462

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #11 on: August 06, 2012, 10:19:43 am »
    :scrutiny :scrutiny
    A Civil War has already happened in the US. :facepalm


    Re: 

    Oh goody, now I don't have to worry about prepping ever again.  :rotfl
     
    Quoted for truth.

    My biggest fear is an economic collapse.  Mainly that's because we're 15+ trillion dollars in debt and getting worse, with apparantly no one really doing anything about it.  Maybe an economic collapse alone wouldn't fill our streets with "zombies" but what happens afterwards?  Would it be "just" a collapse?   And what of the fact europe is in a similar boat -- just a little ahead of us?
    Being taken town "20 paces" to England's level?  What is "20 paces," anyway?  What does 1 pace equal?
    I've been to England and while most there aren't as wealthy as some here (such as well-off New Yorkers, where it's truly expensive to live) England is a quit livable country.
    I wonder how many "paces" down from us the Weimar Republic would be considered?
     :nervous :(

    You're not alone there.  I've been thinking that same thing for some time, and have read comments from several economists who believe we could be headed for a collapse, not just a depression.  This one takes it farther than most (but not much farther than some) and provides much food for thought.  A few Liberal politicians have recently re-floated the idea of gov taking over 401Ks -- wouldn't surprise me a bit if they were drafting bills to have on hand just in case when it becomes necessary.

    http://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2012/08/ann-barnhardt-warns-about-iras-401ks.html

    The way it is here, even a breakdown in the power/transportation/communications grid of a couple of weeks to a month would have most people on the ropes -- and possibly at each others' throats -- long before it ended.
    VirginiaGoatroper

    JackCrow

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1133
    • This Jack Crow is no other Jack Crow.

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #12 on: August 06, 2012, 01:12:19 pm »
    The author has obviously never read "The Monsters Are Due On Maple Street."
    Arizona"First comes smiles, then lies, last comes gunfire." - Roland of Gilead

    If the reaper wants to take you, make the blighter slip on the brass. - Roper1911

    Nick Cage

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1659

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #13 on: August 06, 2012, 02:09:11 pm »
    I can list you all my experience and qualifications if you required it. Nation wide EMP attack is unlikely due to simple physics.  Area effect is certainly possible. Larger the area, less damage, as it decreases exponentially.  So state or several states, maybe.  Entire US, not likely.  Two countries could pull it off with great expense, but it is very noticable.  Neither will because both countries have nuclear subs with nuclear missiles.

    In short, more hype than not.

    Remember, we set off about a thousand nukes thus far.  No nuclear winter, and electronics were mostly fine.  It would be annoying and expensive attack, but not end of the world.  A hundred cruise missiles into dams, power plants, etc would be more effective and far cheaper.  Which incidentally is SOP for our military. 





    There is a video of a bunch of guys standing at ground zero when a nuke is set off (i don't remember howmany)thousand feet above them.
    The mic, video, and other equipment doesn't really seem to care.

    I'll say this, I think the US will fall someday, whether that fall is an ideological one or a total system collapse I don't know but all empires fall it is one of the few constants in history.

    But the odds are high that it won't be a back to the horse and buggy type deal. I am pretty unconvinced that civilization could fall that far even if you had a global nuclear war. If you look at history even when you had massive change, the global level of tech and civilization didn't change much. 

    Civil war? sure it could happen. Econ face plant? Totally! But a total societal collapse where we scrape out a living off the land for the rest of our lives? I don't think that is really ever going to happen. Or at least not be permanent.

    cpaspr

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2268

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #14 on: August 06, 2012, 03:10:17 pm »
    A hundred cruise missiles into dams, power plants, etc would be more effective and far cheaper.  Which incidentally is SOP for our military. 

    This, to my way of thinking, is really the most likely way we might sustain TEOTWAWKI damage.  Or a similar nationwide, simultaneous attack on the infrastructure.  Whether by overt foreign sneak attack (less likely) or by a coordinated attack by inserted individual terrorists.  Said terrorists don't care that we are actually the primary food source for much of the world.  To them, it is simple ideology:  We are the Great Satan, and must be destroyed.  Never mind the downstream fallout.  As long as we are hurt/destroyed, any cost is worth it.

    Without the power grid, the ability to buy and sell would be seriously hampered.  (How many people would be lost without the ability to use their debit/credit cards?) If you don't have cash (or other ready currency/tradeable goods), you're not going to be able to buy anything.  Without electricity, stores can't keep frozen/refrigerated goods edible (and neither can people at home) nor can they keep the lights on (how many grocery stores can use daylight only to see the products on the back shelves?) nor can they run the registers (when was the last time you saw a non-electric cash register?)

    By and large, most people do not normally have more than a few days' worth of food on hand.  Once that runs out, and they can't get more from the store, you'll see total anarchy.  And an awful lot of people will die, many violently, either trying to get food from others who have it or trying to defend that which they have from those who want to take it.
    Oregon

    HMPlatinum

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1053
      • My gaming clan

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #15 on: August 06, 2012, 03:27:21 pm »
    There is a video of a bunch of guys standing at ground zero when a nuke is set off (i don't remember howmany)thousand feet above them.
    The mic, video, and other equipment doesn't really seem to care.


    There was a news article on this not long ago.
    They had the vid from

    Missouri"You can only fight the way you practice"  - Miyamoto Musashi

    Diapers and politicians should be changed often. For the very same reasons.

    TommyGunn

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 3016
    • MOLON LABE

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #16 on: August 06, 2012, 03:35:46 pm »
    IIRC, the Weimar Republic was saddled with ALL of the WWI debt plus a lot of penalties for starting the war.
    Many restrictions on their businesses were brutal all thanks to Woodrow Wilson's 'League of (Extraordinary) Nations'. Emphasis added.
    Toward the end of the Weimar the people were burning the paper currency for fuel because it was so worthless. People were paid 3 times a day at one point because inflation was so rampant if the businesses waited, they would have to pay their employees more so it was worth paying them multiple times a day. People were paying their debts off faster because they took advantage of the inflated pay to pay off debts that could not be updated faster to keep up. Thus the banks and the people being owed money were losing money everyday. It was a financial mess and a nightmare.
    Not one of America's finer moments concerning post WWI Germany.

    Weimar was a mess.  I recall a story about a wheelbarrow full of money, haveing been left unattended; some thief dumped the money and stole the wheelbarrow because the money was worthless.

    Currently I am reading Hitlerland and the author is illustrating how Hitler rose to power, told mainly through the eyes and accounts of Americans living in Berlin, Austria & Germany at the time.  It's incredible.  The Weimar money crunch is recounted briefly.  A cup of coffee was UNBELIEVABLY expensive -- but the money weas near worthless.  America bankers financed, through what I recall was called the Davis Act, a refinancing of Germany's banks.  Our bankers loved it because they got 9% interest! (incredible at the time).
    "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero.

    Thernlund

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 14101

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #17 on: August 06, 2012, 03:39:00 pm »
    The apocalypse will be economic in nature.  And it will be temporary.


    -T.
    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

    TommyGunn

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 3016
    • MOLON LABE

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #18 on: August 06, 2012, 03:41:52 pm »
    I can list you all my experience and qualifications if you required it. Nation wide EMP attack is unlikely due to simple physics.  Area effect is certainly possible. Larger the area, less damage, as it decreases exponentially.  So state or several states, maybe.  Entire US, not likely.  Two countries could pull it off with great expense, but it is very noticable.  Neither will because both countries have nuclear subs with nuclear missiles.

    In short, more hype than not.

    Remember, we set off about a thousand nukes thus far.  No nuclear winter, and electronics were mostly fine.  It would be annoying and expensive attack, but not end of the world.  A hundred cruise missiles into dams, power plants, etc would be more effective and far cheaper.  Which incidentally is SOP for our military. 


    One Second After was based on some solid research.  It involved multiple EMP bombs being lit off above America at certain points designed to cause the most EMP damage.  Whether or not what could happen in the book could literally happen, I don't know.  IMHO there is some danger it could happen but I don't know who could do it (the book doesn't specify the attacker, IIRC).
    Most of the nukes we've set off were in the Pacific, underwater, underground or whatever and there was no problem with EMP frying everything.
    IIRC there were some airburst tests ...."Starfish Prime" or something....I don't recall the name of the test right now, but it TKO'd some power systems and telephones hundreds of miles away in Hawaii.    The reason I think we didn't have a lot of problem with this sort of thing is I don't think the powers that be were too keen of frying electrical systems all the time .... gets kind of expensive, you know. ;)
    "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero.

    Kaso

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 7211
    • WTA Hardline Antagonist (aka: Jerk)

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #19 on: August 06, 2012, 04:33:15 pm »
    The apocalypse will be economic in nature.  And it will be temporary.


    -T.
    So, pretty much like what the Greeks are going through?



    Kaso

    Thernlund

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 14101

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #20 on: August 06, 2012, 04:51:45 pm »
    No.

    Think America, circa 1933.








    -T.
    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

    JackCrow

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1133
    • This Jack Crow is no other Jack Crow.

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #21 on: August 06, 2012, 07:11:43 pm »
    Remember, during the Great Depression there was also significant technological and commercial innovation. There were more than a few millionaires made as well as those who would become billionaires. Major companies continued to exist and grow and some that we still recognize today were founded.

    Where there is great turmoil there is also great opprotunity.
    Arizona"First comes smiles, then lies, last comes gunfire." - Roland of Gilead

    If the reaper wants to take you, make the blighter slip on the brass. - Roper1911

    Nightcrawler

    • WTA Secretary of Defense
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 6280
    • That's what SHE said!

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #22 on: August 06, 2012, 07:12:58 pm »
    The end of the world as we know it still isn't the end of the world.  :coffee
    ArizonaMOLON LABE

    Retired Bomb Guy
    Semi-Pro Hack Writer

    Cooker

    • Junior Member
    • *
    • Posts: 72

    • Offline
    Re: TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #23 on: August 06, 2012, 07:46:41 pm »
    Argentina was relatively first world and from what I've read people were killing each other for food within a week of their economic collapse.
    "You can't cover up crazy with a new pair of jeans." -- Aaron Bell

    ZeroTA

    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 2969
    • Minister of Random Punishments

    • Offline
    TEOTWAWKI is a BS Scenario Made-Up to Sell You Crap
    « Reply #24 on: August 07, 2012, 11:16:25 am »
    n
    I can list you all my experience and qualifications if you required it. Nation wide EMP attack is unlikely due to simple physics.  Area effect is certainly possible. Larger the area, less damage, as it decreases exponentially.  So state or several states, maybe.  Entire US, not likely.  Two countries could pull it off with great expense, but it is very noticable.  Neither will because both countries have nuclear subs with nuclear missiles.

    In short, more hype than not.

    Remember, we set off about a thousand nukes thus far.  No nuclear winter, and electronics were mostly fine.  It would be annoying and expensive attack, but not end of the world.  A hundred cruise missiles into dams, power plants, etc would be more effective and far cheaper.  Which incidentally is SOP for our military.

    Interesting. And that's another point to consider: if a plausible event, however likely or unlikely, hasn't happened yet you have to ask why not.


    Sent from my Mephistophelian Contrivance using Tapatalk
    I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't.

    Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.