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Author Topic: Since it worked out so well last time . . .  (Read 3171 times)

goatroper

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Since it worked out so well last time . . .
« on: June 22, 2013, 07:00:45 pm »
http://www.nationalreview.com/node/351772

Passing It To Find Out What’s In It, Again

By  Yuval Levin

The Hoeven-Corker amendment to the Gang of Eight bill is essentially a new bill. It is almost 1,200 pages long. Some parts of it are identical to some of the provisions of the original Gang of Eight bill, some parts are very different, and some parts are slightly different in ways that could prove very important but difficult to understand in a hurry. But it has to be understood in a hurry. Given the length and complexity of this proposal, I think it is fair to say that not more than a handful of the senators voting on it on Monday—which is apparently when the vote is scheduled—will really understand it in any detail. There is almost no way any of the senators voting on it could have read it all, and it’s unlikely even their staff members could do so in a thorough and responsible way in that time. Only the people who wrote it will know what it says, and I imagine it was written in parts by numerous people from several Senate offices. That means there is probably no one who really knows what it says. It also seems likely that, if the amendment is adopted on Monday, the vote on the final bill would come too soon thereafter to allow CBO to re-score the much-amended bill, and so to offer some sense of how things have changed in terms of costs, economic effects, future immigration flows (legal and illegal) and other key issues.

Is this any way to make such an important set of decisions about the country’s future?
VirginiaGoatroper

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    Coronach

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #1 on: June 22, 2013, 10:07:54 pm »
    I am reminded of a constitutional amendment that I proposed a while ago. In order to vote on passage of a bill, the sponsor of the bill must read it in its entirety, to include all appendices, footnotes, cross-references, endnotes, addenda and supplementary documentation. The reading must be done in one turn at the podium, with no breaks, delays or other interruption, and anyone wishing to vote yes must be physically present in his seat, awake and attentive during the whole reading. Anyone wishing to vote no can just walk in and vote no at the end.

    That would put a lot of this bull**** to bed.

    Mike

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    coelacanth

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #2 on: June 23, 2013, 02:15:05 am »
    Agreed.  So would being removed from your office for violating the oath you took at the beginning of your term.   :scrutiny
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    JackCrow

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #3 on: June 24, 2013, 11:57:01 am »
    Also, there shall be no ammendments to any bill that do not relate directly to the subject of the bill.
    Arizona"First comes smiles, then lies, last comes gunfire." - Roland of Gilead

    If the reaper wants to take you, make the blighter slip on the brass. - Roper1911

    cpaspr

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #4 on: June 24, 2013, 02:29:05 pm »
    You guys are just being logical.

    Stop that!

    We're talking about Congress here.

    There is no logic to how it works.  (Or, how it doesn't work.)
    Oregon

    goatroper

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #5 on: June 26, 2013, 08:33:24 am »
    Passing it to find out what's in it . . . . or not.

    I keep forgetting -- remind me again why we need these guys up there in DC?  Maybe it's time for them to get actual, y'know, JOBS.  Like modeling tar and feathers.

    Sorry, rant off.

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/senators-dont-know-if-bill-encourages-hiring-amnestied-immigrants-instead-us-citizens_737897.html

    5 Senators Who Support Immigration Bill Don't Know Answer to Key Question About It

    By JOHN MCCORMACK

    Obamacare poses a tricky problem for supporters of the Senate's comprehensive immigration reform bill. It would be too politically toxic to give illegal immigrants amnesty and taxpayer subsidies under Obamacare, so the Senate bill prohibits "registered provisional immigrants" (individuals who are now residing illegally in the United States granted legal status under the bill) from receiving Obamacare subsidies. But in so doing the Senate's immigration bill would create a big financial incentive for some employers to hire non-citizens granted legal status over American citizens.

    As the Washington Examiner's Philip Klein recently reported: "Under Obamacare, businesses with over 50 workers that employ American citizens without offering them qualifying health insurance could be subject to fines of up to $3,000 per worker. But because newly legalized immigrants wouldn’t be eligible for subsidies on the Obamacare exchanges until after they become citizens – at least 13 years under the Senate bill – businesses could avoid such fines by hiring the new immigrants instead."

    On Tuesday afternoon, THE WEEKLY STANDARD asked five different U.S. Senators about this problem. These five senators, all Democrats, voted to cut off debate Monday night on the revised immigration bill, but none of them knew if the bill would create a financial incentive for some employers to hire amnestied immigrants instead of American citizens.

    "We're trying to solve that right now. I don't know if that's been solved," Senator Max Baucus of Montana (chief author of Obamacare) told THE WEEKLY STANDARD.



    "I don't know. I'd have to look at it closely," said Senator Bob Casey of Pennsylvania. "I just haven't read it that closely to know."

    Senator Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut said he thought the Affordable Care Act's fines would apply no matter what. "I'd have to look at the ACA, but I don't think it distinguishes" between citizens and those on a path to citizenship, Blumenthal said. But then he said he wasn't quite sure. "I mean I'd have to look. You're asking a legal question. It's not an opinion question," Blumenthal added. "I don't recall any distinction in the law. But that's a good question. I'd have to check."

    Senator Tom Carper of Delaware said he was too busy to answer the question. "I don't have the time to drill down on it right now," he told me. And Senator Barbara Boxer of California replied with something of a non sequitur before the Senators-only elevator doors closed in my face. "I think if you work for an employer who offers health care, you will get the health care you want," Boxer said. Spokesmen for Senators McCain and Rubio did not reply to a request for comment.

    It's possible that last minute changes could still fix this problem in the bill, but it should be remarkable that so many senators voted to cut off debate on the bill Monday night without knowing whether the problem even exists.

    And, to clear up any uncertainty, The New Republic, Investors' Business Daily, and the Washington Examiner have all reported that the bill certainly does create an incentive for some employers to hire "registered provisional immigrants" instead of U.S. citizens. The Washington Post's Glenn Kessler wrote that the claim is false, but then he updated his article to admit he was wrong.




    VirginiaGoatroper

    coelacanth

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #6 on: June 27, 2013, 03:24:28 pm »
    The maddening thing is we've seen this coming since the whole idea was proposed.  There's nothing new here.  Same old sh*t in a new sack.  :banghead
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    Feud

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #7 on: June 27, 2013, 04:29:54 pm »
    By the same token, there's no more guarantee that those people condemning and who just voted against it have actually read it or know what's in it. That's a two sided coin.

    JackCrow

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #8 on: June 27, 2013, 05:08:07 pm »
    Passed the senate, on to the house.
    Arizona"First comes smiles, then lies, last comes gunfire." - Roland of Gilead

    If the reaper wants to take you, make the blighter slip on the brass. - Roper1911

    coelacanth

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #9 on: June 27, 2013, 06:36:05 pm »
    By the same token, there's no more guarantee that those people condemning and who just voted against it have actually read it or know what's in it. That's a two sided coin.
    I doubt anyone knows every jot and tittle of this thing but we've already found out enough about it to know that its a bad piece of work.  Like Bob Dylan told us ,  " .  .  . you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.  .  .".   :scrutiny
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

                                                   Benjamin Franklin

    Feud

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #10 on: June 27, 2013, 07:09:37 pm »
    No, but a weatherman is helpful to know whether it'll rain tomorrow or next week.

    This bill isn't perfect, but unless you're happy with the status quo, its probably as good of a bill as you'll see out of the Senate, especially since you basically need 60 votes to pass anything these days.

    Now the ball is on the House's court, for better or for worse.

    Mr. E. Monkey

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #11 on: June 28, 2013, 01:00:41 am »
    I keep forgetting -- remind me again why we need these guys up there in DC?
    We need them just like we need rectal cancer.  Oddly enough, they manifest some of the same symptoms.
    Utah

    Chief45

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #12 on: June 28, 2013, 12:36:10 pm »
    We need them just like we need rectal cancer.  Oddly enough, they manifest some of the same symptoms.

    the treatment seems to be the same also.  Don't treat the problem,  simply do pain management.  If you have enough pain killers ( bread & circuses ) in the patient, they won't notice anything else.

    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #13 on: June 29, 2013, 04:01:29 pm »
    This bill isn't perfect, but unless you're happy with the status quo, its probably as good of a bill as you'll see out of the Senate, especially since you basically need 60 votes to pass anything these days.

    I don't agree with passing a bad bill just to have something. This form of problem solving tends to result in more new problems instead of actually fixing the problem.
    ArizonaCuriously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was Oh no, not again. Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now.

    Feud

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #14 on: June 29, 2013, 04:25:20 pm »
    I didn't say it was a bad bill, I said it wasn't perfect.

    If we only passed perfect bills that everyone thought was great, we'd still be debating our constitution.

    Anyway, hopefully the House gets something passed, then the conference committees get to work and we'll see what happens.

    Mr. E. Monkey

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    Re: Since it worked out so well last time . . .
    « Reply #15 on: July 01, 2013, 09:52:33 pm »
    the treatment seems to be the same also.  Don't treat the problem,  simply do pain management.  If you have enough pain killers ( bread & circuses ) in the patient, they won't notice anything else.
    The end result is the same, as well.

    The similarities are truly disturbing.
    Utah

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