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Author Topic: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.  (Read 24959 times)

Doug Wojtowicz

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Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2008, 01:34:36 pm »
If a forum  adopts a policy that  normative social behavior  such as Marriage between opposite sexes, and advocacy for it is DISCRIMINATORY,  I know that I'm in a forum which serves as a front  for Gay, Lesbian and other aberrant advocacies.

Wow.  Just plain wow, Bruce.

Where have you been for the past half decade of MadOgre.com?

George and Chris Byrne, the Anarchangel, might not agree on the AR-15 platform, but those two guys DO not tolerate bigotry. 
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SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

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    Ian

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #51 on: November 06, 2008, 01:40:51 pm »
    The element the ad gets right is that the opposition to gay marriage is primarily from religious people who look at a gay couple, get outraged that gay people can exist, and try to use the government as a hammer to smite them for being gay. The arguments about disease and church lawsuits are nothing but rationalizations and diversions. If it weren't for the evangelical groups who object on strictly religious grounds, the anti-gay-marriage movement would have the clout of the flat earth society.

    There is nothing conceivably immoral about activities conducted by consenting adults. You don't have a right to not be offended - if you don't like something, you don't have to participate.

    That said, allowing gay marriage is really just a temporary, stopgap solution. The ideal resolution is, like Nolo said, for government to stop meddling in marriage altogether.

    BruceRDucer

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #52 on: November 06, 2008, 03:09:44 pm »

       
    Quote
    We are not discussing the morality of homosexuality here, we are discussing the legal rights of American citizens.-----SkunkApe

        We  "who"?

       I do see moral propositions of RIGHT & WRONG discussed.  You may not be discussing that in particular,  but you are hardly a collective are you?

        ________________________________________________________________________________

         Notwithstanding your claim is  that "legal rights" are discussed. 

        Keeping in mind that Rights for marriage are established at law only within the STATES,   at best,  you are only discussing  the "legal rights" of  any or several states. 

         As yet,  that narrow and selective argument has not been articulated.   If the right does not exist in state law,  it arguably does not exist in fact.   

       One might claim it as a Natural Right   I suppose,  but  then the argumentative propositions assume a different shape.  Which proposal  are you following?

    /

       Try again?


    Mrs. Armoredman

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #53 on: November 06, 2008, 04:39:57 pm »
      Legal rights is only part of the story. I don't have a problem with homosexuals or gays. Just as long as they respect the fact that I like men. I am married to one and I have a son with him.

    I was friends with a gay lady and she never ever pushed me in any way shape or form. She respected my decisions and I respected hers.

     We Who? is right. Marriage is when one woman and one man are joined together in the presence of God and witness's.  Two people are with eachother till death do them part. The community property deal I have no clue. But don't goverments or anyone tell me being married to a man is wrong. I feel the way I do and I have that right just like everyone else. I respect the bonds of marriage. It means the world to me.
    « Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 06:03:07 pm by Mrs. Armoredman »
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    Brian Dale

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #54 on: November 06, 2008, 05:33:22 pm »
    I'm astounded to see this, BruceRDucer:

    Quote from: BruceRDucer
    If the right does not exist in state law,  it arguably does not exist in fact.

    Contrast that statement with these:

    Quote
    Amendment IX
    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    Amendment X
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


    Who'll be the first to identify the source of those sentences?


    Mrs. Armoredman, in my view, the issue is whether or not it's a good idea for governments to continue to forbid to some other couples the kind of experience that you've described. I don't see any valid reason for retaining the legal limbo in which some couples must exist now.

    {previous paragraph edited to acknowledge an edit by Mrs. A - no problem}
    « Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 06:14:40 pm by Brian Dale »
    One great frailty of human nature, an inability or indisposition to compare a distant, though certain inconvenience or distress with a present convenience or delight is said...to be prevalent in Americans so as to make it one of their distinguishing charac

    Mrs. Armoredman

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #55 on: November 06, 2008, 06:02:04 pm »
     I get so sick of state goverments,celebs,etc. putting marriage through the mud. I discusting. For an example Brittany Spears got married and I believe it was 12 or 24 hours later they divorced.

     Brian Dale, I didn't mean to offend you. I am just tired of all people dragging the word marriage through the sewer. I feel very strongly about marriage. I think y'all already know that. I was married once before and dumped. Marriage is a union that two people enter into knowing full well what they are doing. I hope this clears up all the confussion. Sometimes I don't make sence to me. I will edit my post. I fixed it and I hope I didn't offend anyone badly. It's just marriage is beautiful not ugly.
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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #56 on: November 06, 2008, 06:19:17 pm »
    Any question of morality that comes up before the government, must and has always come down to a question of law.  That's what this is.  I have always held the belief that the government has no business in people's personal affairs.  I can't say that and then say the gov should regulate who gets married.  That would be hypocrisy. 
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    Skunk Ape

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #57 on: November 06, 2008, 08:45:13 pm »
       
        We  "who"?

      Keeping in mind that Rights for marriage are established at law only within the STATES,   at best,  you are only discussing  the "legal rights" of  any or several states. 

    In this context "we" refers to this discussion thread.  The topic is whether gays should be denied the legal definition of marriage.  As George has already made clear, ad hominem attacks on the practices of the gay community are off the table.

    I have not said that marriage is a right...for anybody.  I do not believe that a "right" to marriage exists beyond the rights of adults to voluntarily enter into contracts. My argument has been that it is wrong for a government entity to treat people disparately under the law.  To say that a government will recognize a marriage between a man and woman and not recognize any other permutation is disparate impact and is wrong.

    Nobody has a right to a job.  But if I as an employer refuse to hire Jews, or women, or disabled people, then I am still violating their civil rights.  If you don't agree feel free to contact your state labor board or the EEOC and ask for clarification.  Yes, I am aware that the examples above are protected classes under federal law and that homosexuals per se are not specifically covered, but the principle remains the same.

    « Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 10:03:27 pm by Skunk Ape »
    Get these bodies together...five or six of 'em, all laid out on the front of our ship. Put Book front and center, he's our friend and we should honor him. Kaylee, find that kid who's taking a dirt nap with baby Jesus, we need a hood ornament.

    BruceRDucer

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #58 on: November 07, 2008, 08:37:41 am »

    -"In this context "we" refers to this discussion thread. --Skunk Ape

               The "we" is a self-eviden innacuracy.  Clearly,  issues of Right & Wrong are also being discussed,  contrary to your claim.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________


    --"As George has already made clear, ad hominem attacks on the practices of the gay community are off the table."----Skunk Ape

        That is self evident.  Where are the "ad hominem attacks".  Have you been "attacked"?

    ________________________________________________________________________________________

       "I have not said that marriage is a right...for anybody."-----Skunk Ape

        "We are not discussing the morality of homosexuality here, we are discussing the legal rights of American citizens."----Skunk Ape

        "To say that a government will recognize a marriage between a man and woman and not recognize any other permutation is disparate impact and is wrong."----Skunk Ape


          Evidently,  you have contradicted yourself.

       Indeed, you, no less that  other people,   offer evidences for the existence of Right & Wrong.  In that sense,  all citizens are entitled to civil rights.  As civil rights exist at law,  law must recognize only those rights established by legal process.  In that regard,  the entire discussion reduces  to contrasts between:

      (1)  Right & Wrong

      (2)  Legal processes (voting,  ballot initiatives, and civil liberties)

    /

       

    _________________________________________________________________________________________

     

    -



    msb45

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #59 on: November 07, 2008, 10:13:59 am »
    Here is my simple view.  Marriage happens in a Church and is a sacrement under God.

    If you get "married" by the state (e.g. court) it is a civil union.  If it's a man and woman, two sames, whatever.  Government allowed benefits remain the same.

    We need some regulation in this matter as to regards of age and blood relationship.

    For those total Libertarians who say get government totally out I wonder how you feel about the ACLU and the Man-Boy Love types getting civil unions.  Regulation of some limited sort is necessary as our country has lost the continuity of a Judeo-Christain values so there is no "common" in moral sensibilities or standards.

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #60 on: November 07, 2008, 10:26:23 am »
    I can't speak for the other libertarians around, but I can speak for my view of liberty.

    Marriage (or civil union) is a contract.  Each state already regulates who can and cannot enter into contracts on the basis of age and mental competence.  I am not sure how a marriage contract should differ.

    Further, each state also has rules regarding sex with a minor.  Again, I think these cover pretty well the limitations that are needed.

    So, to summarize:  The government has jurisdiction over issues related to direct personal injury or loss of property via direct action or deception.  These issues, as they relate to marriage are or could be currently ensured via existing contract law and criminal law in most, if not all, states.
    Utah

    JesseL

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #61 on: November 07, 2008, 10:39:27 am »
    For those total Libertarians who say get government totally out I wonder how you feel about the ACLU and the Man-Boy Love types getting civil unions.  Regulation of some limited sort is necessary as our country has lost the continuity of a Judeo-Christain values so there is no "common" in moral sensibilities or standards.

    'Boy' implies someone who isn't yet mature enough to enter into contracts. You might notice that most of the libertarian type folks are in favor consenting adults being allowed to form whatever kind of arrangement they like with each other.

    Even the most hardcore anarcho-capitalists generally agree that people below some level of maturity are not competent to handle their own affairs and it's wrong to exploit that (or for parents to allow it to be exploited).
    Arizona

    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #62 on: November 07, 2008, 11:16:49 am »
    I wonder how you feel about the ACLU and the Man-Boy Love types getting civil unions.

    I have no problem with members of NAMBLA entering civil unions - with 350 pound bikers at the local penitentiary.  There's only one breed of alleged human I advocate rape heartily for, and it's child molesters. 

    Bubba and Baby raper, I pronounce you man and wife.  Bubba, you may now tap that @$$.  Just stuff a pillow down his gob so he doesn't wake your neighbors.

    « Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 03:45:10 pm by Doug Wojtowicz »
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    Brian Dale

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #63 on: November 07, 2008, 12:39:03 pm »
    Quote from: BruceRDucer
    As civil rights exist at law,  law must recognize only those rights established by legal process.

    Which country are you writing about? It's not that way in mine. Please review "Amendment IX" in my earlier post.
    One great frailty of human nature, an inability or indisposition to compare a distant, though certain inconvenience or distress with a present convenience or delight is said...to be prevalent in Americans so as to make it one of their distinguishing charac

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #64 on: November 07, 2008, 01:00:41 pm »
    Remember to keep it civil people.
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    msb45

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #65 on: November 07, 2008, 01:05:21 pm »
    Equating the relationships between consenting adults (gays) and nonconsenting rape as advocated by NAMBLA is the foulest possible thing anyone who can claim to be a human can espouse.

    So if you're wondering where that smite point came from, it's from me, bigot.

    I'm sorry you feel I was stating an equation.  I separated the thoughts by a sentence and clearly stated I don't care about civil unions.  I was stating a continuum of behavior and thus the need for some level of boundaries to be set.  I don't appreciate the personal attack of being called a bigot.  Nor can I appreciate the lack of rational thought applied to this thread or knee jerk reactions.  In America you used to be able to share thoughts reasonably and disagree without hate or prejudice.  I frankly thought if I were controversial it would be to Libertarians not Gays (who in my Family are outnumbered by Gays).

    But in the "new America" I guess we just label people, denounce them, and "smite" them.  

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #66 on: November 07, 2008, 02:06:38 pm »
    Quote
    Amendment IX
    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

    Amendment X
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.----cited by Brian Dale


        Brian,  your proposition seems to be that a RIGHT,  not specifically identified at law,   exists outside the context of law.   Since the Bill of Rights   enumerates no right to SAME SEX MARRIAGE,  your remarks are  not substantiated by fact.

        A RIGHT is what is enumerated at law.   There are no other RIGHTS.

    /

    Brian Dale

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #67 on: November 07, 2008, 02:19:24 pm »
    Quote from: BruceRDucer
    A RIGHT is what is enumerated at law.   There are no other RIGHTS.

    Well, I know where you stand, anyway.
    One great frailty of human nature, an inability or indisposition to compare a distant, though certain inconvenience or distress with a present convenience or delight is said...to be prevalent in Americans so as to make it one of their distinguishing charac

    JesseL

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #68 on: November 07, 2008, 02:20:47 pm »
           A RIGHT is what is enumerated at law.   There are no other RIGHTS.

    /

    Wrong.
    A right is anything that is not prohibited by law.

    An enumerated right is one with extra barriers to how the government may limit it.
    Arizona

    Nolo

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #69 on: November 07, 2008, 03:27:48 pm »
    Quote
    For those total Libertarians who say get government totally out I wonder how you feel about the ACLU and the Man-Boy Love types getting civil unions.  Regulation of some limited sort is necessary as our country has lost the continuity of a Judeo-Christain values so there is no "common" in moral sensibilities or standards.
    Disposing of the current system for a minute, I believe that the criterion should be based on full citizenship. The way I'd make it, a child would be a minor citizen and an adult would be a full citizen. All contractual agreements could only be undertaken by full citizens. When/how would a minor become a full citizen? Well, I imagine some sort of qualifications are in order. Throw age out the window, I was ready to vote, etc. when I was 16, and I know some 30-year-olds who still aren't ready. Maybe recommendations or something, I haven't put enough thought into it. All of this should have the same structure but be handled by the state governments.
    In this system, there would be no such thing as "man-boy love" because, legally, there would be no such thing as children. Either someone is a full-citizen or someone is not. Pedophilia laws would still apply, but to minors instead of children. Of course, all these laws are to be determined on the state or local level, not the national level.
    This system would work optimally with a completely revamped education system, but it's not like our current system couldn't use one of those, either.

    Quote
    Even the most hardcore anarcho-capitalists generally agree that people below some level of maturity are not competent to handle their own affairs and it's wrong to exploit that (or for parents to allow it to be exploited).
    The more I think about it, the more Anarcho-Capitalism sounds like a good idea...
    Thanks for listening

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    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #70 on: November 07, 2008, 03:42:01 pm »
    MSB45 - I'm sorry for getting so angry that I missed the civil union portion of your post.

    Child sexual predation is one of my CAUSES - I'm card carrying Protect Member #004020.  Any semblance of equivocating the rights of adult, consenting humans to the most high unholy scum and hated enemy (NAMBLA) trips a hair trigger in me. 

    I'll go back and fix my rage fest.

    Accept my apologies.
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    SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

    Brian Dale

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #71 on: November 07, 2008, 05:00:51 pm »
    Anybody else want to muddy the waters with other hot-button issues? Fishing with dynamite over coral reefs? Sexual slavery and kidnapping? Armed robbery? Alien Zombie Bears?

    Like those other red-herring issues, the issue of predation on children by evil scum has nothing to do with government involvement in which adults may marry each other.

    Let's all please stick to the topic of this thread. Thanks.
    One great frailty of human nature, an inability or indisposition to compare a distant, though certain inconvenience or distress with a present convenience or delight is said...to be prevalent in Americans so as to make it one of their distinguishing charac

    Nolo

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #72 on: November 07, 2008, 05:07:01 pm »
    Quote
    Like those other red-herring issues, the issue of predation on children by evil scum has nothing to do with government involvement in which adults may marry each other.
    And, honestly, I'd be shocked if anyone really disagreed on the issue.
     ;)
    Thanks for listening

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    Ishpeck

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #73 on: November 07, 2008, 05:38:04 pm »
    Wrong.
    A right is anything that is not prohibited by law.

    Wrong again.  By that logic, you have a right to a supermodel harem, big screen plasma TV, and free medical care -- since none of those things are prohibited by law.  Of course, you have a right to pursue these things.  But you don't have a right to invariably have them.  Similarly, your rights are then subject to the whims of the legislature.  Who's law deems whether you have a right to high capacity magazines?  Obviously, hi cap mags is not a "right" in New Jersey, by your statement.  And yet, those mags ARE a right in Utah... ?

    Really, there is only one right: The right to live your life and to do so in a manner that pleases you while respecting this same right in others.  This is summarized in a single word: Liberty.  Liberty has two parts: Your life must be unthreatened by unnatural forces and your ability to do whatever you want with your life must be similarly unimpaired.

    All the other rights we cherish extend from that one core right.  Your right to armament protects your life and your ability to live it.  Your right to free speech, the due process of law, a trial by a jury of your peers, and so forth -- these all extend from one right: The right to life/liberty.

    Just law exists to protect your right from all other entities, be they meth-heads on the streets or bureaucrats in the capitol.  Unjust law ignores your rights and seeks superfluous and unattainable things like perfect safety or a good public image.
    « Last Edit: November 07, 2008, 05:47:55 pm by Ishpeck »
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    Skeptic49

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #74 on: November 07, 2008, 05:41:05 pm »
         A RIGHT is what is enumerated at law.   There are no other RIGHTS.

    I would call that absolutely backwards.  The "Bill of Rights" puts restrictions on GOVERNMENT, it does not "Grant" rights.

    Geoff
    Who notes marriage has been defined by the voters in Florida and California.  Neither of whose electorates, I suspect, looks fondly at "rights" created by a judges declaration.

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