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Author Topic: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.  (Read 24547 times)

Doug Wojtowicz

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Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2008, 12:00:43 am »

   
     Strange point Doug.  That would deprive  many Americans of their political rights,  and a representative government of its power to govern.

/


Really?  The Founding Fathers wanted to avoid Church interference, and they wanted to avoid Government interference in religion.
IllinoisAfter a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

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SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

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    DRZinn

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #26 on: November 05, 2008, 01:31:46 am »
    Get government the hell out of marriage entirely. The only reason it's even an issue is because Government grants certain privileges and benefits to married couples. End the special treatment, and you won't have the irony of gays clamoring for "equal" special treatment.

    BruceRDucer

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #27 on: November 05, 2008, 09:11:57 am »
    /

    Really? The Founding Fathers wanted to avoid Church interference, and they wanted to avoid Government interference in religion. --Doug W

     Doug, a nation is bound by laws, rather than by a vague ethic identified as what the founding fathers "wanted".


    "Church interference" as you refer to it,; is inclusive of the rights of church members to actively practice Civil Rights guaranteed under the First Amendment, I will be more than happy to explain it to you.

    By your simplistic standard, any political activity whatsoever, is "Church interference".


    Or you might consider it in this context my friend. If the 2nd Amendment; expressly states that their shall be no "infringement" on the right to keep and bear, it is similarly valid that no infringement upon rights to political advocacy are equally valid.

    In that regard, if you insist upon restrictions at law; to restrain "church interference"it violates the religious clause of the First Amendment.

    /

    /Looks like 8 passes in Cali anyway....Yippeeee.....to heck with "activist" courts.


    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uselection2008/3384493/Proposition-8-ballot-to-ban-gay-marriage-set-to-pass-in-California.html


    According to other online sources, A ban on gay marriage was approved in Arizona and a similar measure looked set to pass in Florida. Meanwhile in Arkansas, voters approved a measure banning unmarried couples from serving as adoptive or foster parents.

     And with the election of Barack Obama to the presidency, along with his pledge to force the legitimization of homosexual behavior on America, other states may yet be victimized by judicial activism.

    /


    /
    Edited to remove all of the nbsp's.  It was making it hard to read.
    « Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 11:12:21 am by StevenTing »

    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #28 on: November 05, 2008, 12:35:48 pm »
    "Church interference" as you refer to it,; is inclusive of the rights of church members to actively practice Civil Rights guaranteed under the First Amendment, I will be more than happy to explain it to you.

    By your simplistic standard, any political activity whatsoever, is "Church interference".

    *sigh*

     :banghead
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    -William Burroughs

    SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

    Oohrah

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #29 on: November 05, 2008, 02:02:58 pm »
    Not a problem with the Gay relationships.   However, same status
    decreed by law, and equal treatment for benefits :banghead well
    maybe.   Seems like gun control, where does this go and when does
    it end?   Somehow it seems like opening Pandora Box.   Don't ask,
    don't tell, worked really well in the service under Clinton right?
    Let's see also turns into hate crimes, discrimination, and the list
    still continues.   This is all before church, and 1st amendment gets
    consideration.   Nope, would like to see this remain as is I think.
    Probably if not for Hollywood, it would not be a consideration.

    BruceRDucer

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #30 on: November 05, 2008, 02:05:34 pm »
         "Edited to remove all of the nbsp's.  It was making it hard to read."---the ...er....Editor

        They took out all those   nbsp's?    Oh great!  That was the only proof I had that the  Aliens had landed!

       Now what am I supposed to do?

                 :o :o :o :o :o

    Ishpeck

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #31 on: November 05, 2008, 02:08:20 pm »
    Okay, let's get one thing straight:

    From a legal standpoint, marriage is not a right.  It's a privilege.  Just like driving and concealed carry in most states.  Anything you're required to have a license for is not a right, it is a privilege.

    States require licenses for you to get married and thus, it is not a right.  It is something the state, by virtue of its magnanimity, may permit.  But rights are things that you can do without any bureaucrats' permission.  Rights are something that require no consent from any other person than yourself.

    When gay marriage is concerned, those who promote it are not demanding equal rights, they are begging for equal privilege.  They want the state to endorse or condone them -- which is something that the state may or may not do according to its whims.  They want to be coddled by the state like it were some loving, supportive parent who says "Whatever you decide, we're 100% behind you!"

    If you think marriage is your right, then you should want the government out of it.  From a legal stand point, this means you push the matter entirely into the purview of contract law.  You remove licensing, tax quirks, and all those other weird legal idiosyncrasies that have been attached to the matter and leave it be.

    If one church prescribes a certain kind of contract as acceptable marriage, that's their decision.  It won't be a matter of church meddling with state.  It will be a church offering its consent.  This, in no way, violates the principles advocated in the First Amendment.
    Ishpeck's Law: As United States political discourse grows longer, the probability of Ronald Reagan being used as a justification for one's argument approaches one.
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    Brian Dale

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #32 on: November 05, 2008, 02:16:01 pm »
    Quote from: Oohrah
    However, same status decreed by law, and equal treatment for benefits  :banghead well maybe.   Seems like gun control, where does this go and when does it end?

    Uh-oh; you've mentioned the elephant in the room.

    I haven't seen anybody arguing against the special rights that are granted to heterosexual married couples by the government. Funny, that. Can't be compelled by subpoena to testify against a spouse in court...may choose to file tax returns individually or jointly, as they please...what else?

    Those rights don't depend on having children or even on being fertile.

    Some folks don't want to let those icky gays and lesbians into their club, though.

    Hm.
    One great frailty of human nature, an inability or indisposition to compare a distant, though certain inconvenience or distress with a present convenience or delight is said...to be prevalent in Americans so as to make it one of their distinguishing charac

    Nolo

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #33 on: November 05, 2008, 02:24:11 pm »
    Quote
    If you think marriage is your right, then you should want the government out of it.  From a legal stand point, this means you push the matter entirely into the purview of contract law.  You remove licensing, tax quirks, and all those other weird legal idiosyncrasies that have been attached to the matter and leave it be.
    Exactly my line of thinking. The government has no place in marriage any more than any other contract.
    Thanks for listening

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    Skunk Ape

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #34 on: November 05, 2008, 02:53:35 pm »
    Okay, let's get one thing straight:

    From a legal standpoint, marriage is not a right.  It's a privilege  

    But equal protection under the law is a right.  And denying one group a legal status for no lawful reason is illegal.  This is not that different from the arguments used to justify other injustices.  Back in the day it was God's will and "the natural order of things" that blacks be treated as inferior to whites.  Just like it was "the natural order of things" that women be denied the same opportunites as men.

    We either believe in the Bill of Rights or we don't.

    Get these bodies together...five or six of 'em, all laid out on the front of our ship. Put Book front and center, he's our friend and we should honor him. Kaylee, find that kid who's taking a dirt nap with baby Jesus, we need a hood ornament.

    BruceRDucer

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #35 on: November 05, 2008, 03:26:28 pm »


       Nolo, 

       Your proposition about:

      "Exactly my line of thinking.  The government has no place in marriage any more than any other contract."----Nolo

       Is not consistent with the law however.   The idea of state regulation  is a right of the state, because the state has a vested interest in its citizenry.   Matters such as disease enter into the issue.

       The idea that all "rights" are only vested in the INDIVIDUAL, and never in the STATE,   is not an accurate legal argument. 

       I'm not a Lawyer, and would have to do an extensive internet search to dig up the facts,  but   having studied the issue previously,  the state also has the right to regulate marriage.

    / :D :D

         

    StevenTing

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #36 on: November 05, 2008, 03:31:55 pm »
    It looks like the bill passed.  While we can debate discourse, I think I'm going to watch and see what the courts do now.  Since the bill passed, my main concern has been put to rest.

    Feel free to continue to debate, but remember to be courteous to one another.
    Utah

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #37 on: November 05, 2008, 04:35:26 pm »

     
    Quote
    Nolo,

       Your proposition about:

      "Exactly my line of thinking.  The government has no place in marriage any more than any other contract."----Nolo

       Is not consistent with the law however.   The idea of state regulation  is a right of the state, because the state has a vested interest in its citizenry.   Matters such as disease enter into the issue.

       The idea that all "rights" are only vested in the INDIVIDUAL, and never in the STATE,   is not an accurate legal argument.

       I'm not a Lawyer, and would have to do an extensive internet search to dig up the facts,  but   having studied the issue previously,  the state also has the right to regulate marriage.
    Oh, I am sure it's not. Most of my beliefs aren't.
    Thanks for listening

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    Ishpeck

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #38 on: November 05, 2008, 04:47:51 pm »
    But equal protection under the law is a right.  And denying one group a legal status for no lawful reason is illegal.

    See, now things get slippery here.  You have a "right" to vote -- but that right can be denied to felons.  And what is a felony?  Well, whatever legislature says.  So if being gay is a felony, you can deny them a vote.

    And for some reason, we love to arbitrarily toss the Felony-hammer about.  With millions of pages of federal codes on the books, it's almost impossible not to stumble upon some inane formality that criminalizes you.

    Yes, we all deserve equal protection under the law.  But we don't get equal protection FROM the law.  As such, the government will always go after groups of people for whatever reason it wants and will get its way regardless of what's right or wrong.

    I think it's important that, if the "gay rights" movement really wants to move their objective forward in a functional and lasting way, they need to FIRST stop begging for permission from the state and start reminding the state exactly what authority it has over their lives.  
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    Brian Dale

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #39 on: November 05, 2008, 05:04:16 pm »
    Quote from: BruceRDucer
    Is not consistent with the law however.   The idea of state regulation  is a right of the state, because the state has a vested interest in its citizenry.   Matters such as disease enter into the issue.

    Nonsense. Balderdash. Utter hogwash and a faulty statement.

    The state's "vested interest" in a human being is a fantasy. The state has no ownership of human beings. "Vested" is a term with a specific meaning and it's inapplicable in the statement that I've quoted.

    People have rights. We grant to the states certain powers and authority in order to do particular things.
    One great frailty of human nature, an inability or indisposition to compare a distant, though certain inconvenience or distress with a present convenience or delight is said...to be prevalent in Americans so as to make it one of their distinguishing charac

    Ishpeck

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #40 on: November 05, 2008, 06:05:50 pm »
    People have rights. We grant to the states certain powers and authority in order to do particular things.

    <3

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    VT Hunter

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #41 on: November 05, 2008, 06:12:02 pm »
    Same sex marriage is wrong anywhere, anytime, in any circumstance. 
    « Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 06:24:36 pm by Gundoctor »
    hit or get hit... respect

    BruceRDucer

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #42 on: November 05, 2008, 08:01:58 pm »
    Quote
    The state's "vested interest" in a human being is a fantasy. The state has no ownership of human beings. "Vested" is a term with a specific meaning and it's inapplicable in the statement that I've quoted.

    People have rights. We grant to the states certain powers and authority in order to do particular things.----Brian Dale

         If there were a shed of truth to what you post here,   then it would be also a fact that states in the USA had never regulated marriages.   The fact that states do, indicate that you are utterly ignorant on the subject.

        Moreover,  it is self-evident that Gay & Lesbian activists   specifically pursue recognition and regulation by the state governments,  of  Same Sex unions.  You might want to check your facts.

     ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

    /

    Nolo

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #43 on: November 05, 2008, 08:06:06 pm »
    Quote
    If there were a shed of truth to what you post here, then it would be also a fact that states in the USA had never regulated marriages. The fact that states do, indicate that you are utterly ignorant on the subject.
    Brian Dale is talking about the very nature of government. People like to give it superhuman status, but in reality government is only given powers by the people who support it.
    One can think of government as an extra-societal entity, and I am sure that it would enjoy that very much, but it isn't. It's just a group of people whom the rest of society has put into managerial positions.
    Now, society can allow government to do certain things, but the power flows from the bottom up.
    Thanks for listening

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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #44 on: November 05, 2008, 08:09:31 pm »
    Same sex marriage is wrong anywhere, anytime, in any circumstance. 
    And so is discrimination.  We wont have it here.
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    BruceRDucer

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #45 on: November 06, 2008, 11:30:03 am »
      to George Hill:

          So where is any discrimination evident?

       The only way normative dialogue of public ballot issues can be be labelled as DISCRIMINATORY,  is that no definition of the term be acknowldged,  and thereafter,  normative discussion be prohibited in a biased manner.

        If a forum  adopts a policy that  normative social behavior  such as Marriage between opposite sexes, and advocacy for it is DISCRIMINATORY,  I know that I'm in a forum which serves as a front  for Gay, Lesbian and other aberrant advocacies.

       
    /

    /

    /
    « Last Edit: November 06, 2008, 12:44:51 pm by BruceRDucer »

    Mrs. Armoredman

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #46 on: November 06, 2008, 12:00:10 pm »
      Anyway you look at it same sex marriage is wrong. God instuited marriage between one man and one woman. It made me sick when I heard some states leagleized same sex marriage. I don't like it at all when I saw the news story on the news.
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    JesseL

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #47 on: November 06, 2008, 12:49:25 pm »
    The fact that large numbers of people think something is wrong is not, by itself, a good enough reason for the government to prevent people from doing it.

    There are oodles of people in the world who think hunting is wrong. There are even more who think seeing a woman's face in public is wrong. There are more still who think eating pork is wrong. A majority of Americans evidently think voting for McCain was wrong. Some folks think using electricity is wrong.

    This nation was founded in large part by people who were minorities in their home countries and persecuted because their countrymen thought they were wrong.

    Thank God that America is supposed to be the land of the free, not the land of the right.
    Arizona

    Nolo

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #48 on: November 06, 2008, 01:10:51 pm »
    Quote
    Anyway you look at it same sex marriage is wrong. God instuited marriage between one man and one woman. It made me sick when I heard some states leagleized same sex marriage. I don't like it at all when I saw the news story on the news.
    It's perfectly okay that you hold that opinion. What is at issue is not what is right or wrong. What is at issue is whether you want the government deciding what is right or wrong for you.
    I know I don't.
    Thanks for listening

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    Skunk Ape

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    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #49 on: November 06, 2008, 01:26:04 pm »
      Anyway you look at it same sex marriage is wrong. God instuited marriage between one man and one woman. It made me sick when I heard some states leagleized same sex marriage. I don't like it at all when I saw the news story on the news.

    And Neo-Nazis marching through the streets is wrong, too.  But they still have the legal right to do so.  We are not discussing the morality of homosexuality here, we are discussing the legal rights of American citizens.  Are same sex unions the same as marriage?  The fact that we even have to differentiate suggests otherwise.  If a gay man dies, does his partner receive the deceased federal pension?  What about community property and estate planning?  There are very real economic benefits that accrue with marriage beyond the simple desire to have the same dignity that heterosexuals may have.  Barney Frank may be okay with introducing his partner as "my lover" but I know a whole lot of of gays would prefer to use the terms "husband" or "wife."

    Oh, and guys, states don't regulate marriages through the licenses, they simply recognize them.  A marriage license is equivalent to a deed or a lien in that it recognizes an intangible legal relationship.  With the exception of same sex marriage and inter-racial marriage up until the seventies, the clerk of the court is not in the habit of denying or rescinding marriage licenses.
    Get these bodies together...five or six of 'em, all laid out on the front of our ship. Put Book front and center, he's our friend and we should honor him. Kaylee, find that kid who's taking a dirt nap with baby Jesus, we need a hood ornament.

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