Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.

Author Topic: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.  (Read 24716 times)

StevenTing

  • WTA Staff
  • Senior Contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 4651

  • Offline
I've heard arguments on both sides.  Now there is this Video that is making the rounds.  I know this is a sensitive subject but I just heard about this ad that is going to be released.  It kinda bashes a religion a little bit and I don't want to start an argument on religion.



Here's an article denouncing the ad.

http://www.protectmarriage.com/article/outrageous-no-on-8-commercial-sinks-to-new-lows-utterly-condemned-for-religious-bigotry-and-intolerance

For me, this line says it all.

Quote
"After all, the No on 8 campaign has been running their own television commercials saying we must all oppose discrimination and intolerance whenever we see it. The bigotry this ad shows to members of the LDS church demands action now."
Utah

WeTheArmed.com

  • Advertisement
  • ***

    BruceRDucer

    • Junior Member
    • *
    • Posts: 68

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #1 on: November 04, 2008, 02:08:53 pm »
       Don't give a hoot about  the supposed "rights" of Same-Sex couples. 

       The ad is not a characterization of American Law in any context.

    / :neener :neener :neener :neener :neener :neener

      Now,  an Amendment to the Constitution to ensure marriage as a legal condition between man and woman,  would be just fine.

        [Oh,  I'm sorry!  Did I write something that was not Politically Correct?  Darn.]

     :neener :neener :neener :neener :neener :neener :neener :neener :neener :neener :neener

    /
    « Last Edit: November 04, 2008, 02:21:38 pm by BruceRDucer »

    Outbreak

    • NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, Certified Sig P-Series Armorer
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 11465
    • Outbreak Monkey ^

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #2 on: November 04, 2008, 03:03:28 pm »
    I'm not gonna get into the same-sex marriage thing here. Its not really a hot-button issue for me. What I do know is that those women in the video had their wedding rings and marriage license stolen when they should've had two dead intruders on the door mat. :uzi
    TexasOutbreak

    I take my coffee black...like my rifles.

    I absolutely despise Glocks. That's why I only own two.

    I'm glad that your chains rest lightly upon you. --JesseL

    Skeptic49

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1620

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #3 on: November 04, 2008, 03:06:22 pm »
    All same sex marriage will do is increase the income of Divorce Lawyers. 

    Geoff
    Who figures enough said.  :cuss

    Doug Wojtowicz

    • Clown prince
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 8543
    • Fly like the wind!

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #4 on: November 04, 2008, 03:10:56 pm »
    Two wrongs never make a right.

    'Sides, if folks are willing to enter into a wholly monagamous relationship for the rest of their living days, no gub'mint piece of paper can say otherwise.  GTFO of my bedroom, Congress!   :cuss
    IllinoisAfter a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

    -William Burroughs

    SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

    Ishpeck

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1467
      • The Ishpeckian Network

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #5 on: November 04, 2008, 04:43:44 pm »
    I'm LDS.  I attend my meetings, hold a temple recommend, and subscribe wholly to the doctrines of the church.

    When Utah had on Referendum the state constitutional amendment that would "define" marriage as solely between a man and a woman, I voted against it.  I know I'm in the minority but I stand by my decision.

    I know that the family's under attack these days.  Lazy and hedonistic men will impregnate and evade, never taking responsibility for the rearing of their own offspring.  Cultural movements are pushing to deemphasis the two parent home model.

    But you can't protect the family with government.  The government is inherently corrupt and has recently proven a massive inclination to capitulate to the whining of evil people.  By setting a precedent that legislature, votes, and courts can dictate the nature of something as sacred and as eternal as family, we open the door for corrupt and evil people to attack the family with total impunity from behind the protection of fancy badges, legal documents, and popular vote.

    I have a duty to protect the family -- and most importantly, MY family -- from the evils of the world.  In order to do so, I want the state uninvolved with the anatomy and structure of my family.  No twisted bureaucrat is going to tell me how we live.

    And whoever made that ad is a douchebag just looking for a fight.
    Ishpeck's Law: As United States political discourse grows longer, the probability of Ronald Reagan being used as a justification for one's argument approaches one.
    http://www.ishpeck.net/

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 22121
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #6 on: November 04, 2008, 05:27:09 pm »
    The ad said one thing that was correct.  Members of the church donated money.  Not The Church.  There is a difference there.
    That being said... I am against discrimination.  I also don't believe the goverment has a right to interfere with personal relationships.
    The guys that made that ad.  I'd like to shake their hands and congradulate them on exercising their first amendment rights.  And then I'd kick them square in the balls. 
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    Doug Wojtowicz

    • Clown prince
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 8543
    • Fly like the wind!

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #7 on: November 04, 2008, 05:37:28 pm »
    I was in town when the Mormon mothers spoke up in opposition to "Prop 8."

    The ad said one thing that was correct.  Members of the church donated money.  Not The Church.  There is a difference there.
    That being said... I am against discrimination.  I also don't believe the goverment has a right to interfere with personal relationships.

    Why you're my hero, Ogre.

    Quote
    The guys that made that ad.  I'd like to shake their hands and congradulate them on exercising their first amendment rights.  And then I'd kick them square in the balls. 

    I never saw a man lifted three feet into the air by their crotch before.  Try to catch it on video.   O0
    IllinoisAfter a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

    -William Burroughs

    SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

    StevenTing

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4651

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #8 on: November 04, 2008, 05:59:45 pm »
    While I generally don't like to have things defined in the law, my question comes from a legal/liability stand point.  In California, the supreme court has approved Same Sex Marriages. Prop 8 is trying to define it as between a man and a woman.

    But, since Same Sex Marriages have been legally defined, how does that affect churches that refuse to perform those marriages?  I'm assuming in the state of California, that they would be in violation of the law.  If they don't perform them, someone could sue a church.  That church could then potentially use their tax exempt status.

    I had a friend say that it won't affect churches because we can't discriminate based off race, religion,etc.  But, since Same Sex marriages are now law, they could sue.  It's no longer about religion but now about a violation of law.

    Is my thinking flawed?  I'm not a lawyer, but this is how I interpret it.  This could open up any church that will not perform a same-sex marriage to a lawsuit.  Someone please tell me where I'm wrong.

    Because of these possible lawsuits, this would be the only reason I'm for Prop 8.  Otherwise, I would vote against it and leave it undefined.
    Utah

    Doug Wojtowicz

    • Clown prince
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 8543
    • Fly like the wind!

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #9 on: November 04, 2008, 06:30:17 pm »
    Neither the Church(es) nor the State should influence each other.

    A legal civil union under government auspices is not the same as forcing a Church to acknowledge X marriage.

    In my case, I, a Roman Catholic, have a lifelong relationship with a woman who had been divorced in the Mormon Church.

    If I truly gave more than two fecal pellets about what the Vatican says about my everlasting union with her, then no marriage would be allowed to be legal.  But the Church is not law.  The Church can also kiss my hairy, pimpled white butt saying that I'm committing a sin for loving a woman who was dumped by a microcephalic, abusive sleeze.
    IllinoisAfter a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

    -William Burroughs

    SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

    Outbreak

    • NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, Certified Sig P-Series Armorer
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 11465
    • Outbreak Monkey ^

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #10 on: November 04, 2008, 06:37:03 pm »
    Yes, steven, your logic is flawed. The issue they are looking at is legal marriage, not religious marriage. Churches won't be sued for refusing to marry same-sex couples because in the eyes of the law, the ceremony at the church is not legally binding. Couples still need a Marriage License from the government to be legally married.
    TexasOutbreak

    I take my coffee black...like my rifles.

    I absolutely despise Glocks. That's why I only own two.

    I'm glad that your chains rest lightly upon you. --JesseL

    Medikman

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 221

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #11 on: November 04, 2008, 06:49:36 pm »
    Yes, steven, your logic is flawed. The issue they are looking at is legal marriage, not religious marriage. Churches won't be sued for refusing to marry same-sex couples because in the eyes of the law, the ceremony at the church is not legally binding. Couples still need a Marriage License from the government to be legally married.

    Not necessarily true, most if not all marriages preformed at any denomination are legally binding. The churches are granted licenses from the state to preform a legal marriage. If a church then refuses to preform a same sex marriage, and the couple pursues it legally the government could potentially revoke the license for that church

    StevenTing

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4651

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #12 on: November 04, 2008, 06:52:43 pm »
    Yes, steven, your logic is flawed. The issue they are looking at is legal marriage, not religious marriage. Churches won't be sued for refusing to marry same-sex couples because in the eyes of the law, the ceremony at the church is not legally binding. Couples still need a Marriage License from the government to be legally married.

    So if someone comes to my church with a marriage certificate and want a same-sex marriage, and the Bishop/Preacher/Reverend, says no, they won't do it, that doesn't open them up to a lawsuit?  If state-law says the marriage is legal, how can my church refuse?  Wouldn't they be discriminating then?
    Utah

    StevenTing

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4651

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #13 on: November 04, 2008, 06:53:25 pm »
    Not necessarily true, most if not all marriages preformed at any denomination are legally binding. The churches are granted licenses from the state to preform a legal marriage. If a church then refuses to preform a same sex marriage, and the couple pursues it legally the government could potentially revoke the license for that church

    I think this is the main worry of my Church, the LDS church.
    Utah

    bensdad

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 142

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #14 on: November 04, 2008, 06:56:57 pm »
    I'm ready to say, "smaller government at any and all costs."  I don't want ANY new laws/taxes/programs/commissions/agencies/agents/regulations/yadayadayada.  If the govt. were half its current size, it would still be too big.  I'm pretty sure the word marriage has a meaning already.  I'm also pretty sure we don't need the government to protect it.  

    Outbreak

    • NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, Certified Sig P-Series Armorer
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 11465
    • Outbreak Monkey ^

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #15 on: November 04, 2008, 06:57:18 pm »
    Medikman, thanks for the info. I stand [sorta] corrected. Steven, the only other thing I can see that would protect churches from lawsuit is the separation of church and state. They can't tell people what they can or cannot believe, and most major faiths do not allow same-sex marriage as part of their dogma.
    TexasOutbreak

    I take my coffee black...like my rifles.

    I absolutely despise Glocks. That's why I only own two.

    I'm glad that your chains rest lightly upon you. --JesseL

    StevenTing

    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 4651

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #16 on: November 04, 2008, 06:59:48 pm »
    Medikman, thanks for the info. I stand [sorta] corrected. Steven, the only other thing I can see that would protect churches from lawsuit is the separation of church and state. They can't tell people what they can or cannot believe, and most major faiths do not allow same-sex marriage as part of their dogma.

    The problem comes where most churches agree to follow the law of the land.  In this case, the law of the land says it's legal.  By not performing the same sex marriage, the church is disenfranchising those people or limiting their rights.  I think this reasoning would cause a church to lose a lawsuit.  Stupid Lawyers.
    Utah

    GeorgeHill

    • Co-Founder
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 22121
    • The Ogre
      • MadOgre.com

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #17 on: November 04, 2008, 07:03:18 pm »
    I think this is the main worry of my Church, the LDS church.
    It's not a worry.  They will say no, and if a legal battle comes of it - they'll fight it.  That and any same sex couple that comes forward asking it, will be kicked out of the church.
    South CarolinaCo-Founder of WeTheArmed.com
    The Ogre from MadOgre.com.

    Vires et Honestas
    Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.
    http://www.madogre.com/

    Nolo

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1779
    • NO Live Operator

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #18 on: November 04, 2008, 08:03:44 pm »
    Being pro gay rights, I'd like to weigh in a bit here.
    The ad was distasteful and hurtful.
    If LDS is funding Prop 8, that's their business. Their right as American citizens, as I see it.
    Now, having said that, I think that gays have a right to get married, etc. I also think that polygamous families should be legal.
    But I also think that the government should not have anything to do with marriage, heterosexual, homosexual or polygamous.
    With that comes the right for churches to deny marriage to couples of their choosing. If the church doesn't like that they are same sex, they can refuse. If they don't like that they are polygamous, they can refuse. Heck, if they don't like heterosexual couples, they can refuse them, or even maybe they just think the couple is ugly.  ;)
    Churches shouldn't be forced to do anything, nor should they force anyone to do anything (or desist in doing anything).
    People make too much of a deal of marriage. I understand that so many of you are fighting the good fight in trying to preserve the honest, productive family, and that is a noble goal, but I think there is a confusion of enemies for some.
    I am not sure I can go any further without offending anyone, so...
    I guess I'll just let everyone chew on that for a bit.
    Thanks for listening

    Quote
    "You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to defend your opinion."
    -Me
    "A defiant socialist is a better defender of freedom than any complacent libertarian."
    -Me

    FMJ

    • 7.62
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 14344
    • "A good black coffee is like a good liquid cigar"

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #19 on: November 04, 2008, 08:17:10 pm »
    Is that how the BATFE operates?

    I think the Ad is flawed because those gentlemen identified themselves as members of LDS Church and not as government employees.  EVERYBODY knows about the separation of church and state.

    In legal terms is a civil-union not the same thing as a marriage?  Or do the gays just want to be called Mr. and Mr.? 
    CaliforniaThere are many like it, but this one is mine.

    Stevie-Ray

    • Senior Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 558

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #20 on: November 04, 2008, 08:17:40 pm »
       Don't give a hoot about  the supposed "rights" of Same-Sex couples. 
    The ad is not a characterization of American Law in any context.
     Now,  an Amendment to the Constitution to ensure marriage as a legal condition between man and woman,  would be just fine.
    [Oh,  I'm sorry!  Did I write something that was not Politically Correct?  Darn.]
    I couldn't have said it any better.
    MichiganFolks keep talking about another Civil War.  One side knows how to shoot and has a trillion bullets.  The other side has crying closets and is confused about which bathroom to use.  How do you think that war is going to end?

    Outbreak

    • NRA Basic Pistol Instructor, Certified Sig P-Series Armorer
    • WTA Staff
    • Senior Contributor
    • *****
    • Posts: 11465
    • Outbreak Monkey ^

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #21 on: November 04, 2008, 08:18:51 pm »
    Bingo, Nolo. Thats proper libertarian thinking. Keep the gummint out of my business, the LDS business, the gays' business, the gun owners' business, and everyone else's business.
    TexasOutbreak

    I take my coffee black...like my rifles.

    I absolutely despise Glocks. That's why I only own two.

    I'm glad that your chains rest lightly upon you. --JesseL

    Nolo

    • Contributor
    • ****
    • Posts: 1779
    • NO Live Operator

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #22 on: November 04, 2008, 08:22:00 pm »
    Holy Crap!
    I'm in the positive for Karma???
    No way...
     ;D
    Thanks for listening

    Quote
    "You have the right to your opinion, and I have the right to defend your opinion."
    -Me
    "A defiant socialist is a better defender of freedom than any complacent libertarian."
    -Me

    BruceRDucer

    • Junior Member
    • *
    • Posts: 68

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #23 on: November 04, 2008, 10:00:02 pm »


       
    Quote
    Neither the Church(es) nor the State should influence each other.----Doug Wojtowicz

         Strange point Doug.  That would deprive  many Americans of their political rights,  and a representative government of its power to govern.

    /

    Skunk Ape

    • Member
    • **
    • Posts: 349

    • Offline
    Re: Prop 8 in California - Sensitive Subject - Think Twice, Type Once.
    « Reply #24 on: November 04, 2008, 11:52:17 pm »
    We've already established that "separate but equal" is unconstitutional.  Every adult deserves the opportunity to legally marry the person they love, regardless of the plumbing.  I realize that this will likely lead to the redefinition of marriage as being whatever the consenting adults contractually agree to, but hey, this is America and grownups have the right to make their own choices.  But then, I also grew up reading Heinlein, so large, extended marriages are not exactly shocking to my sensibilties.

    I don't believe that any church should be forced to perform a marriage ceremony that they object to.  If all else fails, there's always Elvis.
    « Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 02:54:52 pm by Skunk Ape »
    Get these bodies together...five or six of 'em, all laid out on the front of our ship. Put Book front and center, he's our friend and we should honor him. Kaylee, find that kid who's taking a dirt nap with baby Jesus, we need a hood ornament.

    Help support WeTheArmed.com by visiting our sponsors.