General Topics => General Non-Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: MTK20 on July 26, 2016, 12:42:54 pm
Title: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: MTK20 on July 26, 2016, 12:42:54 pm
Trumps acceptance speech. What did y'all think of it?
Quote
An amendment, pushed by Lyndon Johnson, many years ago, threatens religious institutions with a loss of their tax-exempt status if they openly advocate their political views. I am going to work very hard to repeal that language and protect free speech for all Americans.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/full-transcript-donald-trump-nomination-acceptance-speech-at-rnc-225974#ixzz4FWuir8cb Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Grant on July 26, 2016, 01:08:56 pm
I haven't paid a great deal of attention, as my decisions already been made sadly enough.
That said, from the little excerpt you posted I support his opinion on that. It sounds as if that possible amendment could be used to force churches to follow the .gov's decision on gay marriage, towing the .gov line or losing their tax exempt status.
I'm not entirely sure churches should have tax exempt status to begin with, that said, I don't like the fact that there is a very real possibility, that a double standard would be enforced, where they could not practice their views without being penalized.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: booksmart on July 26, 2016, 03:52:59 pm
I'm fine with churches having tax exempt status, so long as we can knock off the "God has told me he wants to run for President" nonsense...
I'm fine with churches having tax exempt status, so long as we can knock off the "God has told me he wants to run for President" nonsense...
First, don't knock conviction if you've never experienced it. If you have, you'll never knock it again. Doesn't mean the candidates need to advertise it, but that's their call.
Second, this is why I do not like churches having tax exempt status. It means that they are hindered from preaching their beliefs in the way they would otherwise. Churches should owe nothing to, nor receive anything from a government that is supposed to be detached from any one belief.
Churches can and should have separate, apolitical charity divisions, and these should most certainly be tax exempt.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: booksmart on July 26, 2016, 04:22:29 pm
Organized religion has caused more problems on this planet than it has solved (and continues to!).
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Kaso on July 26, 2016, 04:27:21 pm
To answer the OP, I agree with Trump and his assessment of our nation and world. I will say also, that Trump was not my first choice. Not even second or third... Yet when I start looking past his behavior, and toward his positions... He should have been my first choice. He is providing the needed service of dragging the GOP (kicking and screaming, I might add) toward the center on social issues, and at the same time taking unpopular yet 'common sense' positions on others.
Looking at it now, and being completely objective and honest, I believe that Donald Trump was the Best possible choice, out of any of the candidates from either party.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Kaso on July 26, 2016, 04:28:10 pm
I was going to make a comment about atheism being an organized religion as well, but that might be seen as provocative, so I will refrain.
:neener
Oh really? Passive aggressive much? :D
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: ksuguy on July 26, 2016, 04:56:22 pm
I don't know about organized, but for some people it definitely does serve as a religion. Including the zealotry and evangelism.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: sqlbullet on July 26, 2016, 04:58:23 pm
Atheist aren't generally organized into a uniform group or congregation. And they don't subscribe to the concept of a superhuman controlling power. It may be appear as a well defined belief system, but it fails the litmus tests to be a religion.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: MTK20 on July 26, 2016, 05:08:00 pm
Atheist aren't generally organized into a uniform group or congregation. And they don't subscribe to the concept of a superhuman controlling power. It may be appear as a well defined belief system, but it fails the litmus tests to be a religion.
In the same way that studies of Buddhism show it to not be a religion :scrutiny.
Guys :-\, can we get back to Trump, our new fearless leader? :bash
I highlighted that one quote as interesting about the religion, but my main concern is how he'll treat gun rights and how far he'll go with government security measures to "keep us watched and safe".
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Kaso on July 26, 2016, 05:13:16 pm
And look at us. We got just as derailed as if we had let booksmart redirect the conversation. Thanks. :-\
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: MTK20 on July 26, 2016, 05:17:02 pm
Nice... Take a potshot at what I said, then say we are off topic and shouldn't talk about that anymore. Talk about passive aggressive. :D
That wasn't a potshot, I was saying that it was irrelevant (as was my fact about Buddhism).
Gentleman, we are gathered in this thread today to discuss politics. And that is a topic that is about as godless as one can get ;).
All I wanted to do was cut through the BS and discuss Trump :banghead. We are getting past the campaign stage and soon we will start to see how he's really going to act. I wanted opinions on how others see things shaping up.
To answer the OP, I agree with Trump and his assessment of our nation and world. I will say also, that Trump was not my first choice. Not even second or third... Yet when I start looking past his behavior, and toward his positions... He should have been my first choice. He is providing the needed service of dragging the GOP (kicking and screaming, I might add) toward the center on social issues, and at the same time taking unpopular yet 'common sense' positions on others.
Looking at it now, and being completely objective and honest, I believe that Donald Trump was the Best possible choice, out of any of the candidates from either party.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Chief45 on July 26, 2016, 05:49:05 pm
Ask again in a year. I might have an answer by then.
for now, it's all political BS, smoke and mirrors.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: MTK20 on July 26, 2016, 06:07:33 pm
Ask again in a year. I might have an answer by then.
for now, it's all political BS, smoke and mirrors.
See, that's fine too :cool.
I didn't completely fall for his speech myself, but my stance has changed a little bit. I was going to purposefully not vote this year, but... Maybe I will vote for Trump instead of Hillary. Who knows? :shrug
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: booksmart on July 26, 2016, 06:21:00 pm
To get us back on topic (sorry, jeez...): I think he's a narcissistic blowhard with delusions of grandeur, who has no idea what the fluff he's going to do if he actually makes it into office, other than see how many times he can derail investigations currently ongoing into his dealings.
In other words, my opinion of him after the speech is about the same as my opinion of him before the speech, it's now simply reinforced.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Grant on July 26, 2016, 06:29:23 pm
I'd say this thread in itself is a good look at the VAST....gap of the interpretation of each sides beliefs and motivations.
I don't think Trump will be any better or worse president than most, however give him a couple years and we'll see.
I will say that regardless of Trump speeches, there is still the house and senate, regardless of what he wants.
I will also say that in the end, I think NOTHING.....matters. As this thread (and every other one with two different stark sides in it) highlights, I think the seeds are planted that is slowly leading to the end of the nation as we know it. Civil war? NO.....fringe lunatic talk in my opinion. However civil disobedience, and refusal to aknowladge or respect another's opinion. A decade in my opinion regardless of whom is president will have us looking far more like a typical Balkans country as far as loyalties and motivations VS the US of the 1800s.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: JesseL on July 26, 2016, 06:35:06 pm
I favor tax exempt status for everyone. :whistle
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: MTK20 on July 26, 2016, 06:40:13 pm
Atheist aren't generally organized into a uniform group or congregation. And they don't subscribe to the concept of a superhuman controlling power. It may be appear as a well defined belief system, but it fails the litmus tests to be a religion.
That's because it's hard to make a profit out of atheism. Yet.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: scarville on July 26, 2016, 07:42:41 pm
IIRC he self identifies as a Presbyterian. Which is mostly irrevelent except in the case where he follows their Assembly's advice on guns.
formation of support, healing and advocacy groups for those who have experienced gun violence in their families;
opposition to legislation that exempts gun manufacturers and marketers from legal liability and/or financial accountability for the medical and security costs of predictable gun misuse and availability to criminals, the unstable, and the self-destructive;
opposition to “stand your ground” and other legislation that may entitle gun owners to shoot before taking alternative measures (such as relying on law enforcement and/or other de-escalation techniques) in perceived defense of persons or property;
encouraging church sessions and PC(USA) entities that own property to declare their particular premises and gatherings to be gun-free zones;
raising the age for handgun ownership to 21;
supporting legislation to ban semiautomatic assault weapons, armor-piercing handgun ammunition and .50-caliber rifles; and
advocacy in support of state and federal legislation to regulate ammunition.
Except for the first -- which sounds to me like feel-good virtue mimicry -- I support none of the above.
OTOH, Trump may be as good a Presbyterian as I am a Catholic.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: sarge712 on July 26, 2016, 07:46:31 pm
For the record I liked the writing of the speech, I felt it was decent.
Although we've heard too many like this one before and I'm cynical to see everything become right with the world just cos one man got elected.
Same here.
Unlike some I have no problem voting for the lesser of two evils especially if that greater evil is Hillary Clinton. I do not like Trump but I dislike her immensely and forever more.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: MTK20 on July 26, 2016, 08:16:35 pm
Unlike some I have no problem voting for the lesser of two evils especially if that greater evil is Hillary Clinton. I do not like Trump but I dislike her immensely and forever more.
When put in this manner, you and I can agree. I do have a problem voting for the lesser of two evils, but..... Hillary Clinton is 5' 7" of pure nastiness. Hell, I'm disgusted we share the same zodiac symbol :facepalm. I don't want her to run a homeless shelter, let alone a country.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Bud on July 26, 2016, 09:07:55 pm
In any event, this may prove to be the most interesting, by far, of any Presidential election year that I have ever experienced. And I have accepted voting for the lesser evil as a lifestyle
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Kaso on July 26, 2016, 09:41:47 pm
Unlike some I have no problem voting for the lesser of two evils especially if that greater evil is Hillary Clinton. I do not like Trump but I dislike her immensely and forever more.
This was me to a T. Then I started actually listening to him, and now I am very much sold. But like him or not, I dislike Sec. Clinton enough to vote Bernie in the primaries - which I did.
A choice for either is basically telling my personal ethics to bend over and expect to be raped like an Australian nurse in a Japanese POW camp.
Then don't vote. Go sit in a corner and pout about 'your' favorite candidate not winning. (if you ever even had one) But do try to leave the crude, graphic descriptions out of this. They are not in good taste. :bash
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on July 26, 2016, 10:10:41 pm
Because there are no other party options... :banghead
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: MTK20 on July 26, 2016, 10:19:33 pm
Then don't vote. Go sit in a corner and pout about 'your' favorite candidate not winning. (if you ever even had one) But do try to leave the crude, graphic descriptions out of this. They are not in good taste. :bash
While shocking, I don't mind the freedom of expression, it actually prompted me to look for historical incidence (because any mistreatment of nurses causes my blood to boil and that is troll bait I cannot resist). I couldn't find any specific event (unless Doug chooses to send a pm of a specific event).
In short, that's our Doug :P.
Besides, my candidate is Ted Cruz and sadly I don't think he'll get to run for presidency ever now :(. I'm already hearing family say that "he's worse than Hillary, because he didn't support his party" :banghead.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Kaso on July 26, 2016, 10:35:34 pm
While shocking, I don't mind the freedom of expression, it actually prompted me to look for historical incidence (because any mistreatment of nurses causes my blood to boil and that is troll bait I cannot resist). I couldn't find any specific event (unless Doug chooses to send a pm of a specific event).
In short, that's our Doug :P.
Yes, our Doug. Crude for the sake of being crude. If I ever want to read a good, realistic rape scene, I'll ask him to write it. :scrutiny
Besides, my candidate is Ted Cruz and sadly I don't think he'll get to run for presidency ever now :(. I'm already hearing family say that "he's worse than Hillary, because he didn't support his party" :banghead.
Supporting his party is optional in my book - acting like and adult, rather than a petulant child is not.
Cruz acted like a selfish child. Rubio acted like a selfish child when he turned down Cruz's unity ticket. (which would have spanked Trump handily) Kasich acted the fool, when he turned down the Trump VP offer, which would have made him the president in all but name. Whether it was because of pride, or what, if he wanted to serve his country... that was his chance. And Little Jebbie... He is all pissy because people chose Trump and Cruz over his stuffy establishment GOP. All of these listed have demonstrated to me that the American people were right to not select any of them to be president this year. Can they change their ways? Maybe. But they have an uphill climb to get there.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: freeman1685 on July 26, 2016, 11:29:18 pm
I listened to Trump's speech during the re-broadcast, on C-SPAN. I have been a Trump supporter since he announced. The speech only served to reinforce what I already believed. He is the only candidate that has signed a paycheck. Has he had failures? Yeah. Every successful businessman has. No one is right 100% of the time. Which brings me to my next point: Clinton has NEVER BEEN RIGHT. Ever. Not on anything she's ever laid her grubby claws on. Sanders isn't any better. Not that he was ever really an issue. Now, on the subject of Cruz: fluff HIM. First, he is not Constitutionally eligible to run for the office of President. PERIOD. He is not a "natural born" citizen. Yes, he is an American citizen, by virtue of being whelped by an American citizen. But the point folks seem to be missing, is that he was not hatched ON AMERICAN SOIL. That's what the term "natural born citizen" means, when it comes to presidential eligibility.
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Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Kaso on July 27, 2016, 12:24:10 am
I'm not sure SCOTUS sees it that way, but it doesn't matter as he is no longer an issue for at least four years.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: freeman1685 on July 27, 2016, 12:45:55 am
I'm not certain the issue has ever been brought before SCOTUS. To my knowledge, limited as that may be, no one has ever taken it that high. And the lower courts are full of the same kind of liberal fluffs that gave us the "anchor baby" interpretation of the 14th Amendment.
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Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: coelacanth on July 27, 2016, 01:03:26 am
Because there are no other party options... :banghead
Quoted for truth. The Greens and the Libertarians won't win a state. They'll be lucky if they win a county by the time November rolls around. So that leaves us exactly where we were a year ago when Trump announced his candidacy and we all knew that Hillary was going to be the democrat nominee. Pick your runner up to your least favorite candidate and cast your ballot. :coffee
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on July 27, 2016, 01:22:46 pm
I'm not certain the issue has ever been brought before SCOTUS. To my knowledge, limited as that may be, no one has ever taken it that high. And the lower courts are full of the same kind of liberal fluffs that gave us the "anchor baby" interpretation of the 14th Amendment.
I need to address this: First you claim that Cruz is a US citizen because he was "whelped by an American citizen," and that he is not natural born because "...the point folks seem to be missing, is that he was not hatched ON AMERICAN SOIL." So by that you claim that birth on American soil is the most important factor to being a natural born citizen, and then you turn around and fuss that 'anchor babies' are given citizenship because they are born here, but their parents were not... Do you see the problem with that? What is good for one, has to be good for the other, and you can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: booksmart on July 27, 2016, 02:10:17 pm
Just ask Bobby Jindal. :coffee
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: RetroGrouch on July 27, 2016, 02:11:53 pm
I haven't voted FOR a President since Reagan. I've voted AGAINST candidates in all the others. Same thing this election. I will vote against Hillary, because the Libertarians couldn't win a national election if they were the only one running, I will vote for Trump.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: freeman1685 on July 27, 2016, 02:19:24 pm
I need to address this: First you claim that Cruz is a US citizen because he was "whelped by an American citizen," and that he is not natural born because "...the point folks seem to be missing, is that he was not hatched ON AMERICAN SOIL." So by that you claim that birth on American soil is the most important factor to being a natural born citizen, and then you turn around and fuss that 'anchor babies' are given citizenship because they are born here, but their parents were not... Do you see the problem with that? What is good for one, has to be good for the other, and you can't have it both ways.
No, I don't. The parents of the so called "anchor babies" are here illegally. End of discussion. Period, bye bye. Those kids are no more citizens, than their parents. So no, there is no incongruity in my position on either subject. The phrase "natural born" is in the main body of the Constitution, and nothing anywhere else contravenes it. Cruz is a citizen by extension, he was born on Canadian soil. And for most of his formative years lived under Canadian law. The whole purpose of the "natural born citizen" clause was to prevent someone raised in another culture, under other laws from doing what Barry Soetoro has been trying to do. He isn't eligible to hold the office either, let alone qualified.
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Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: scarville on July 27, 2016, 02:42:23 pm
I need to address this: First you claim that Cruz is a US citizen because he was "whelped by an American citizen," and that he is not natural born because "...the point folks seem to be missing, is that he was not hatched ON AMERICAN SOIL." So by that you claim that birth on American soil is the most important factor to being a natural born citizen, and then you turn around and fuss that 'anchor babies' are given citizenship because they are born here, but their parents were not... Do you see the problem with that? What is good for one, has to be good for the other, and you can't have it both ways.
I am not sure that is even relevant.
The State Dept issues a document called a Consular Report of Birth Abroad (CRBA) to Americans who are born to an American citizen while outside the US. This confirms the child is a US national. It is proof of US citizenship from birth.
At the time of Cruz's birth, Canada did not allow dual citizenship so he was either registered as Canadian by birth (regardless of his mother's citizenship) or he was certified by a CRBA to be an American citizen by birth. There really is no middle ground here.
So why did Cruz renounce his Canadian citizenship? If Cruz has a CRBA, renouncing any Canadian citizenship was superfluous since he was never a Canadian citizen in the first place. If he was registered as Canadian at the time of his birth, then he is not a "natural born" American citizen.
AFAIK, Cruz has never produced a CRBA so questioning his eligibility is reasonable independent of the geographic circumstances of his birth.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: sqlbullet on July 27, 2016, 04:08:56 pm
Natural in this context means "not made or caused by man". A naturalized citizen is one that that was made or caused to be a citizen by an act of man, not of birth.
A natural born citizen is a citizen that meets the requirements of citizenship by birth, either by having been born on US soil (jus soil), or by having at least one parent that is a US citizen (jus sanguinis). This definition goes back to the British 1708 "Foreign Protestants Naturalization Act", reinforced by the British Nationality Act of 1730 and the Plantation Act of 1740. Noted Jurist William Blackstone also wrote on the subject and had the same definition in 1765 (Blackstone, William. Commentaries on the Law of England, Vol. 1, p. 354)
Further, lexicographer Samuel Johnson wrote in 1756 that natural means "native" whether by geography or offspring.
On the basis of these citations I have little doubt that the framers meant a person whose citizenship was a product of either place or parentage of birth. And while the supreme court has not heard the case, I would be shocked if they ruled differently considering the preponderance of common law that supports this interpretation.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: freeman1685 on July 27, 2016, 05:37:10 pm
So let me get this straight, you are quoting a British author, and British common law to define American Constitutional law? :facepalm
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Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Bud on July 27, 2016, 10:32:39 pm
While shocking, I don't mind the freedom of expression, it actually prompted me to look for historical incidence (because any mistreatment of nurses causes my blood to boil and that is troll bait I cannot resist). I couldn't find any specific event (unless Doug chooses to send a pm of a specific event).
actually the the vicious sexual assault of women prisoners by the Japanese during World War II is well documented. From the rape and mass murders in Nanking to the rape camps in Korea, the Phillipines, Guam and French Indochina (Vietnam)
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: sqlbullet on July 28, 2016, 10:10:02 am
So let me get this straight, you are quoting a British author, and British common law to define American Constitutional law? :facepalm
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Seriously? Where do you think the founders got the phrase "natural born citizen"? From common law of the period.
And, Blackstone's writings provided the groundwork for US jurisprudence. Even today they are widely cited. Blackstone was cited twenty-two times in Heller, eleven times in the majority and eleven times in the dissent(s).
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: freeman1685 on July 28, 2016, 11:30:42 am
Seriously? Where do you think the founders got the phrase "natural born citizen"? From common law of the period.
And, Blackstone's writings provided the groundwork for US jurisprudence. Even today they are widely cited. Blackstone was cited twenty-two times in Heller, eleven times in the majority and eleven times in the dissent(s).
OK, so? Basis for, doesn't necessarily mean mirror of. I could point out the fact that, those self same British "common laws" were the very reason we just celebrated this country's 240th anniversary of independence from the crown. Because those self same laws were King George's basis for what he was doing here in the colonies. So, again, "OK, so?"
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Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: Bud on July 28, 2016, 11:39:25 am
sqlbullet is correct. British common law caused and was reacted to by the Founders in writing both the Bill of Rights and the US Constitution.
and King George's decrees governing the American colonists were often in violation of British common law and even the magna carta
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: booksmart on July 28, 2016, 12:28:45 pm
Basically, they didn't start from scratch when crafting our own legal system; they copied parts of British common law whole cloth.
Why reinvent the wheel?
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: freeman1685 on July 28, 2016, 01:07:53 pm
I have acknowledged the fact that they didn't start from scratch. To use your idiom: They didn't reinvent the wheel, they made it better, by putting rubber on it. I'm simply making an argument for a different point of view. It's all of this legalese BS, that has gotten us into this fix in the first place. It is my stance, that the US Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and given the fact that our founding fathers had just fought a war, and an insurrection, I'm taking the stance that they were trying to set themselves as far apart as they could from the British Empire. To me, using some long dead British author's (mind you he was not even a statesman) definitions, and 260ish year old British common law in what is an attempt to mirror the very reason for that war I mentioned earlier is a great misjustice . It doesn't matter to me that Georgie may have violated them, I am sure he believed he had every authority to act as he did, because he believed that the colonies were subjects of the crown. I believe that our founding fathers were being explicit when they formed the Constitution.
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Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: booksmart on July 28, 2016, 01:14:23 pm
Yes, but the Constitution is based on that law.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: freeman1685 on July 28, 2016, 01:18:13 pm
Damn :facepalm "Based on," not mirror of.
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Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: freeman1685 on July 28, 2016, 01:28:13 pm
Look, our government is fuct. We need a fresh perspective, and to bring us back on topic, I believe Trump/Pence is the only choice. I consider Cruz to be wholly disqualified for the office of President of the United States. Trump won the nomination, let's give him a chance. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I'll be the first to say it. But Clinton is a disaster waiting in the wings. And I'm not willing to waste my vote on a third party with no mathematical path to the Whitehouse.
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Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: sqlbullet on July 28, 2016, 01:39:32 pm
Trump/Pence is the only real option for me. But, it is no more a choice than a shotgun wedding. Both parties have fielded candidates that well and truly nauseate me. The only redeeming plank in Trumps platform that gets him my vote is 2A.
And I have no confidence he will do good for my gun rights, just less bad than Clinton.
And his speeches always make me feel ill. This one was no different.
Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: freeman1685 on July 28, 2016, 01:42:34 pm
I can get behind that.
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Title: Re: Opinions on Trump Speech?
Post by: coelacanth on July 29, 2016, 11:27:12 pm