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Author Topic: Liberty dies by inches  (Read 8520 times)

Adskii

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Re: Liberty dies by inches
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2013, 04:22:20 pm »
You do realize that planned obsolescence is part of basically everyone's business plans right? On the other hand look at what was in those things... huge wires, giant motors, and not much else... there isn't anything to break down. I work for a high end appliance manufacturer (think $2000 dishwashers) and their units are high-end enough to try and last, but there is so much going on inside of them anymore... dishwashers and coffee machines with wi-fi connectivity. The more you cram into the same space the more heat you get (heat is death to electronics) the more components you have the higher your statistical chance of failure on at least one of them. 

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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #26 on: July 08, 2013, 07:05:11 pm »
    My power company called me up and asked if I'd be interested in joining such a program. They said that they could stagger users' air conditioners during peak hours to save wear and tear on the grid.

    I don't use this power company by choice. They're the only one available to me. They've also screwed up my bill enough times that I have no interest in letting them turn off my AC to save themselves money. I pay for my electricity in a non-competitive market. If I want to leave all the lights on and run the AC 24 hours a day, it's my business. I'm the one who gets the huge bill. (For that reason, I do nothing of the sort at home. We're pretty conscientious about the power bill.)

    I don't think there's anything to it other than them trying to save overhead costs, but I declined.

    They also said that for a small nominal fee, they would provide me electricity that came from "green sources". This "green electricity" would come through the same powerlines that all of the regular electricity comes through, and I have no way of verifying the source whatsoever, but they assured me that for this fee, some of that electricity would come from a wind farm somewhere.

    I declined that offer as well. :)
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    Thernlund

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #27 on: July 08, 2013, 07:10:29 pm »
    don't use this power company by choice. They're the only one available to me. They've also screwed up my bill enough times that I have no interest in letting them turn off my AC to save themselves money. I pay for my electricity in a non-competitive market. If I want to leave all the lights on and run the AC 24 hours a day, it's my business. I'm the one who gets the huge bill. (For that reason, I do nothing of the sort at home. We're pretty conscientious about the power bill.)

    I hope you see how those two statements are in conflict.


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    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

    Nightcrawler

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #28 on: July 08, 2013, 07:25:46 pm »
    Not really.

    I pay the power bill to the power company. I feel like I'm safe in assuming that they don't charge me "at cost" rates, and turn a profit off of their customers. Hard to stay in business otherwise.

    They aren't asking to stagger the AC for my benefit. If they were worried about my budget they'd charge me less. They made no promises about it reducing my bill, as a matter of fact.  They simply told me it's better for the grid.

    Maintaining the grid is their problem, not mine. I'm quite capable of minding the thermostat on my own.

    Really, the lady that called me on the phone did a poor job of selling the proposal. It's not like we're blasting the AC all day without monitoring it anyway.

    We're also under water rationing this year. This is understandable because we live in a desert. I've got no issues with it because there's only so much water. Even then, the city doesn't turn off my water when they want. "Surprise, the toilet won't flush!"
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    JesseL

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #29 on: July 08, 2013, 07:36:07 pm »
    The thing is, by efficiently managing the grid and it's load they can save a s___load of money - hopefully the savings is passed on to you if that's done, but you can bet that the costs will definitely be passed on to you if it's not.

    Having to beef up capacity in the distribution lines or bringing extra generators online to satisfy peak demands is really expensive. It's exponentially more expensive than just the base price of a marginal increase in how much power you're using. If that can be avoided by staggering loads and shaving off the worst of the peak demands, I don't see why that would be something that everyone resents so much.

    If a smart grid can keep my power bill from suddenly doubling due to grid demand having crossed a capacity threshold, I'm all for it.
    Arizona

    ksuguy

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #30 on: July 08, 2013, 07:45:03 pm »
    Unfortunately the savings usually aren't passed on,  they are used as justification for raising rates since they aren't selling enough power to make their expected rates of return.   At least that's how the power company operates here.    Unfortunately they are a monopoly and they rely on the Kansas Corporation Commission to regulate rate increases, and there isn't a market competitor to help keep them in check.   
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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #31 on: July 08, 2013, 07:52:34 pm »
    Considering how they were also offering to charge me more so I could be assured that some of my energy is "green", I may have been more skeptical than I would have been otherwise.

    Their sales pitch kind of stunk, too. The "we're all in this together" appeal to my sense of community is less effective when you're a company I pay money to. If they attached a discount to the offer I may have been interested. 

    There's nothing wrong with a modern, efficient grid. My dealings with the power company don't have anything to do withy liberty as near as I can tell. But again, I think I'm perfectly capable of managing the thermostat in my own  house without their help.
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    Kaso

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #32 on: July 08, 2013, 08:09:17 pm »
    There's nothing wrong with a modern, efficient grid. My dealings with the power company don't have anything to do with liberty as near as I can tell. But again, I think I'm perfectly capable of managing the thermostat in my own house without their help.
    I agree.  Make it optional, so that if people want it, they can have it.  Otherwise, let us make our own choice about whether to pay more than we have to.



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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #33 on: July 08, 2013, 08:17:53 pm »
    Also, build in safeguards to insure against food spoilage.

    Plebian

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #34 on: July 08, 2013, 09:31:15 pm »
    Even then, the city doesn't turn off my water when they want. "Surprise, the toilet won't flush!"

    This will likely be changing in the near future. It will not be long until cities will need to do more than "ration". I would assume rising water costs may curtail any real hard core effects like just shutting down water supply. You let water go from near nothing like now to near 1 dollar a gallon, and rationing will be happening on its own. 

    The water shortage is not related to any environmental changes going on really. We have just settled a crap load of people in very arid regions while still supplying water like they are in a water rich environment.

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    coelacanth

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #35 on: July 08, 2013, 10:06:41 pm »
    Agreed.  There is a lot of crap being foisted off on the consumer ( whether of electric power, water or any other "utility" product ) that we have absolutely no say over and no choice about whether to participate in or not.   Monopolies are inherently inefficient and breed a sort of groupthink and arrogance that the free market weeds out pretty effectively. 

    Predicting power demand isn't rocket science and doesn't really require either "smart" meters or the ability of your electric appliances to communicate with the power company.  When the weather forecast calls for daytime high temperatures at near record levels you are going to have potential problems with a power grid that is operating at or near capacity.  The answer really doesn't involve convincing the end user to pay more for "green" power or telling their refrigerators and freezers to power down.   It involves procuring or producing enough power to fulfill the needs of those customers and expanding that capacity as needed.  This is in the charter of every public utility in the country and inherent in the decision to grant them the monopoly status they enjoy.   If you are relieved of the necessity to compete in an open market you are required to serve that market faithfully and efficiently within the bounds of reason.

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    Thernlund

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #36 on: July 08, 2013, 11:00:28 pm »


    Problem solved.   :coffee


    All of this just sounds like more entitlement attitude to me.


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    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

    coelacanth

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #37 on: July 08, 2013, 11:29:40 pm »
    Well, I guess I'll have to wait for any factual refutation of the opposing point of view but in the meantime you're welcome to your opinion.   :hmm
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    Plebian

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #38 on: July 08, 2013, 11:43:25 pm »
    We honestly might need to rethink those co-ops and monopoly status.

    I know it really doesn't make sense logically to run lines in much of west OK where I grew up. My parents are on 7 miles of line for just them. There is no one else using power within 6 miles or so. They are not the only ones out there like that either. Does it really make sense to run lines/plants etc etc for so few people? Would it be better to just give the folks the cash it would take to do so, and say they are on their own.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    Thernlund

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #39 on: July 09, 2013, 12:41:53 am »
    ...you're welcome to your opinion.   :hmm

    That's all it is.   :)


    -T.
    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

    Matthew Mayner

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #40 on: July 09, 2013, 01:52:08 am »
    Entitlement attitude? Seriously?  Electricity is a product we pay for.  Why should we not feel entitled in how to use what we plunk down cold hard cash for?
    IdahoCome check out my blog for more SCI-FI and Fantasy stories. I promise you lots of explosions!

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    JesseL

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #41 on: July 09, 2013, 02:05:45 am »
    Entitlement attitude? Seriously?  Electricity is a product we pay for.  Why should we not feel entitled in how to use what we plunk down cold hard cash for?

    Is someone telling you that you can't?
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    coelacanth

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #42 on: July 09, 2013, 10:39:20 pm »
    If they can tell your appliances to power down without your knowledge or consent and you cannot prevent it, I'd say the answer is yes.
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    JesseL

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #43 on: July 09, 2013, 10:48:07 pm »
    But doing anything like that without your consent hasn't been brought up by anyone but the aluminum beanie brigade yet.

    If it's actually proposed I'll scream as loudly as anyone,  but until then it just seems like a waste of mental effort to worry about.
    Arizona

    coelacanth

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #44 on: July 09, 2013, 11:02:34 pm »
    I'm not losing any sleep over it either at the moment but few .gov  agencies  demonstrate the concept of "mission creep" more clearly than the EPA.  The general direction of the federal bureaucracy has always been toward more control rather than less, no?  :hmm
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    JesseL

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #45 on: July 09, 2013, 11:10:36 pm »
    Absolutely, but there are thousands (millions?) of insidious things they could do in the future. I'm having a hard time understanding why this one deserves any extra share of attention.

    Everything factual reported in the linked article is as innocuous as you could ever hope for from a government agency. Everything else in the article is baseless insinuation.
    Arizona

    Outbreak

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    Re: Liberty dies by inches
    « Reply #46 on: July 09, 2013, 11:14:25 pm »
    Circular and locked.

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