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Author Topic: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....  (Read 7742 times)

Coronach

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Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2013, 05:39:29 pm »
I'm generally pro-wolf-reintroduction, but a couple of things:

1. I don't live in any of the areas where they've been re-introduced.
2. I'm also perfectly in favor of culling the pack size if they get too big.
3. I'm also perfectly in favor of herd owners eliminating wolves on sight on their grazing land.

Wolves (and to a lesser extent coyotes) do a nice job of keeping deer populations in check. And if the wolf population can sustain a hunting season, then they should be hunted. Period. Once you get to that point, they're not in danger of extinction, so the granola-types can stop wringing their hands.

Mike

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    scarville

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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #26 on: June 24, 2013, 07:34:10 pm »
    That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the subject.
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    luke213(adamsholsters)

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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #27 on: June 24, 2013, 08:14:25 pm »
    Trouble is keeping them in check, rather than just controlling the deer population they pretty much destroy it before you get an option for hunting, and then the option for hunting is downright crazy. Right now if this season does go through here in Michigan, you pay for a tag, then call in every day of the hunt to make sure you can still take a wolf, if too many are already taken your SOL. That's honestly too many hoops to jump through, we've in this area gone from having plenty of deer to hunt and eat(I grew up with more venison than beef) to barely seeing any. Not to mention when tracking deer while wolves are around it's dang near a race to see who can find the kill first, which makes it a real pain to track. If you shoot then let the deer bleed out for a half hour or hour which is what you should do so it doesn't jump up and run again possibly without blood to track it can run off and die. So you wait, but instead of finding a deer you find a nice wide circle of blood, hair and a few bones. So you gotta track way to early, which is more of a problem with bow than it is with rifle depending on caliber.

    I guess I'm in the camp with the guys that trapped and took them out of here in the first place, I knew a few of them all but one have passed away now but those same guys got rid of the wolves here and kept them away with a reason and now we're seeing the same issues just they haven't become quite as bad yet. Either way I didn't see a problem with our area without the wolves.

    Luke

    Adding, it's about like having feral dogs around running in packs but without the option to put them down, I guess put that in your mind instead of wolves. Dogs really are basically bred from wolves down the bloodline and a feral dog isn't quite as dangerous as a wolf but around the same thing.
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #28 on: June 24, 2013, 11:14:04 pm »
    and then there's this:

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/24/indiana-man-shoots-kills-leopard-found-roaming-his-property/?intcmp=obinsite

    We are getting increased reports of mountain lion sightings here in the Southern Appalachians even after the all knowing US Fish & Wildlife declared them extinct here. I wonder if they aren't released pets from Atlanta and Knoxville
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #29 on: June 25, 2013, 12:02:07 am »
    Luke, it sounds like a lot (not all) of the issues have to with asinine restrictions on the wolf hunt, as opposed to the presence of wolves themselves. If they could institute a reasonable hunt without having to deal with constant yammering and wailing from the crunchies, you may well see the emergence of a wary, small population of wolves that learn that humans are bad juju and that bad things happen to wolves when they're around, so stay away. Unfortunately, the animal rights buffoons might well doom the wolf reintroduction program by being obstinate asses.

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    luke213(adamsholsters)

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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #30 on: June 25, 2013, 06:47:31 am »
    I agree Mike it's just with the way the politics of the situation are playing out it's got me irritated. They reintroduced the wolves pretty much in secret, denied they did it, once it came out that they indeed did reintroduce them(despite people not wanting them) they said you couldn't do anything to protect yourself or your animals. Then you could apply for a special kill permit if they got your livestock, etc etc etc. So it's been a running pain in the butt the last 10+ years in this area, I know one guy who's lost 3-4 dogs to them who lives about 20 miles north of here. I'd honestly say at this point one of the biggest real headaches with the wolf population is destroying the deer population and having a serious effect on pets and dog hunting.

    Either way if we had a decent predator hunt option to kill off the problem ones I think it could be solved, the trouble is the government at this point is moving far too slow to handle the problem. We should have started hunting them when they became a problem about 10 years ago, that's about the time I first saw one take a deer out under my laundry lines;)

    Luke
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #31 on: June 25, 2013, 11:39:17 am »
    Luke, it sounds like a lot (not all) of the issues have to with asinine restrictions on the wolf hunt, as opposed to the presence of wolves themselves. If they could institute a reasonable hunt without having to deal with constant yammering and wailing from the crunchies, you may well see the emergence of a wary, small population of wolves that learn that humans are bad juju and that bad things happen to wolves when they're around, so stay away. Unfortunately, the animal rights buffoons might well doom the wolf reintroduction program by being obstinate asses.

    Mike

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    Therein lies a big part of the problem. The people that push for reintroduction also push for the insane restrictions on hunting them. Talking with my Dad and other people in Idaho, the reintroduction of the gray wolf to the Yellowstone region has been one clustercuss after another.  Firstly, the wolf they brought in was the Canadian Gray (from my understanding) which was a larger "breed" than the gray that used to roam the area.  Then the absurd restriction on shooting them if they caused problems with livestock (unless the wolf died with its mouth around the neck of your livestock you were guilty until proven innocent).  Add in that there were no natural predators of the wolf..and the population boomed.  At one point the pup survival rate of the packs was upwards of 90%.  They went from 6 wolves to over 100 in a couple years...and it kept going.  The states (ID, WY, MT) wanted to introduce a hunt and got hit with lawsuits.  The .gov took them off the endangered list finally so there could be a hunt..and another lawsuit was filed so the hunts were put on hold while the lawsuit wound through the courts.  Meanwhile..the deer and elk populations suffered.  The packs got strong enough that they weren't just hunting the old and sick animals any more..but chasing healthy animals.  Sometimes not catching them, but running them nearly to death.

    It's put a huge hit on the hunting opportunities there...to the point that the state is not getting the funds they used to from out-of-state hunters...there's so many fewer big or trophy animals that people aren't wanting to pay to try for them.

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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #32 on: June 25, 2013, 11:49:55 am »
    Hmmm...I'm inside those lines.

    Oh, well. I have silencers, a shovel, and the right to remain silent. I doubt I'll have problems. :coffee
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #33 on: June 25, 2013, 03:23:48 pm »
    If you've got the time, I'd love to hear more details about that.

    They wanted to know population holding/sustainable breeding size/wild guesses to population growth rate etc etc. It was run of the mill requests that flow across my desk from extra agency groups. I was also asked to do the impact effects as well.

    The population numbers were everyday stuff, but they disliked my whole report on environmental impacts. They didn't like any of my numbers on the cattle herd effects any sustainable population would have. I used good solid(decades of research on predation) data on cattle losses from Montana, Wyoming and Canadian provinces. I also used what research I could dig from Mexico on behavioral differences of the Mexican Grey.

    Which pointed to sorta a cross between coyote-like predation mixed with traditional grey wolf pack hunting predation. It seems the Mexican wolves drift in and out of solid packs. They are more a loose group of animals that cooperate to hunt large animals, but they also do coyote like individual hunting as well. Their hunting tactics correlate quite closely to the Dingo in Australia.

    That pointed to likely larger than normal wolf impact on household domestic animals, smaller food animals(chickens/rabbits) and medium food animals(sheep/goats). It also means there would likely be larger than normal target of opportunity attacks on humans(most likely children/women).     
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #34 on: June 25, 2013, 03:38:15 pm »
    I'm generally pro-wolf-reintroduction, but a couple of things:

    1. I don't live in any of the areas where they've been re-introduced.
    2. I'm also perfectly in favor of culling the pack size if they get too big.
    3. I'm also perfectly in favor of herd owners eliminating wolves on sight on their grazing land.

    Wolves (and to a lesser extent coyotes) do a nice job of keeping deer populations in check. And if the wolf population can sustain a hunting season, then they should be hunted. Period. Once you get to that point, they're not in danger of extinction, so the granola-types can stop wringing their hands.

    Mike

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    2 and 3 are perfectly acceptable options IMO. 3 should be implemented BEFORE 2 is implemented. The smaller that population is when they learn that humans and their livestock are bad. The better it is for the wolves. We do not want mama and daddy wolf showing baby wolves how to hunt cattle. We especially do not want to look the other way, and allow it for awhile like around Yellowstone. Then we end up having to cull entire wolf packs that do nothing but prey on cattle.

    There is so much good data and research. It seems to fall on deaf ears many times.
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #35 on: June 25, 2013, 05:58:24 pm »
    They wanted to know population holding/sustainable breeding size/wild guesses to population growth rate etc etc. It was run of the mill requests that flow across my desk from extra agency groups. I was also asked to do the impact effects as well.

    The population numbers were everyday stuff, but they disliked my whole report on environmental impacts. They didn't like any of my numbers on the cattle herd effects any sustainable population would have. I used good solid(decades of research on predation) data on cattle losses from Montana, Wyoming and Canadian provinces. I also used what research I could dig from Mexico on behavioral differences of the Mexican Grey.

    Which pointed to sorta a cross between coyote-like predation mixed with traditional grey wolf pack hunting predation. It seems the Mexican wolves drift in and out of solid packs. They are more a loose group of animals that cooperate to hunt large animals, but they also do coyote like individual hunting as well. Their hunting tactics correlate quite closely to the Dingo in Australia.

    That pointed to likely larger than normal wolf impact on household domestic animals, smaller food animals(chickens/rabbits) and medium food animals(sheep/goats). It also means there would likely be larger than normal target of opportunity attacks on humans(most likely children/women).     

    Much appreciated... and rather unsettling  :shocked

    Wolves (and to a lesser extent coyotes) do a nice job of keeping deer populations in check.

    Unfortunately, this area of the country has a hard enough time keeping deer and elk population up. Rainfall is a major limiting factor in how much wildlife can be sustained and the herds here are more than kept in check by mountain lions, black bear, and human hunting. Add in wolf predation and something else is going to suffer.
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #36 on: June 26, 2013, 05:46:14 am »
    No problem, I had to look back into my notes a bit.

    My professional opinion is you should be careful take precautions, and you should allow them to live free. They are more scared of you etc etc   ;)
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    scarville

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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #37 on: June 26, 2013, 12:04:42 pm »
    No problem, I had to look back into my notes a bit.

    My professional opinion is you should be careful take precautions, and you should allow them to live free. They are more scared of you etc etc   ;)
    That's why I think that, if we want the wolf to survive, we need to put distance between us and them. As long as they stay in their protected area then humans entering there take their chances.  If the wolves venture into human territory then humans can deal with them appropriately. I suspect that after a few generations the wolves will relearn why it is a bad idea to hunt man.
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #38 on: June 26, 2013, 12:14:49 pm »
    That's why I think that, if we want the wolf to survive, we need to put distance between us and them. As long as they stay in their protected area then humans entering there take their chances.  If the wolves venture into human territory then humans can deal with them appropriately. I suspect that after a few generations the wolves will relearn why it is a bad idea to hunt man.

    I'm not sure that's a lesson most people have any idea how to teach any more. It used to be that anyone who saw a large predator approaching would take a shot at it, or otherwise do their best to scare the s___ out of it.

    Way too many people today who encounter a large wild animal will do their best to avoid scaring it, or even encourage it to approach them or try to feed it. Then when the inevitable happens and a human gets hurt, the animal in question is immediately killed. The only animals that get to learn how dangerous humans are end up dead.



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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #39 on: June 26, 2013, 01:47:03 pm »


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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #40 on: June 26, 2013, 03:05:20 pm »
    I live and work next to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. Occasionally I go in to assist the rangers and I've lost track of the parents I have seen with a babe in arms trying to pet an elk or feed a bear. If it weren't for the kid, I wouldn't bother to warn them off. They act like they are feeding squirrels in a city park.
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #41 on: June 26, 2013, 03:10:43 pm »
    My stepfather was driving out of their neighborhood one afternoon, and there was an small oldtimer coming the other way. They both stopped to watch a guy carefully peeling pieces of bacon off a rasher to feed to a black bear. By hand.

    As my stepfather pulled even with the old timer, the oldtimer looked at him and, shaking his head, said, "What a dumb son-of-a-b***h."

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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #42 on: June 26, 2013, 04:35:24 pm »
    My stepfather was driving out of their neighborhood one afternoon, and there was an small oldtimer coming the other way. They both stopped to watch a guy carefully peeling pieces of bacon off a rasher to feed to a black bear. By hand.

    As my stepfather pulled even with the old timer, the oldtimer looked at him and, shaking his head, said, "What a dumb son-of-a-b***h."

    Disney ruined people... I tell ya.
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #43 on: June 26, 2013, 04:41:14 pm »
    ... which is nothing compared to my Mom petting the Mama bear while feeding her from a bucket of corn.  :facepalm

    My sister and I both read her the riot act for that bit o' idiocy.

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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #44 on: June 27, 2013, 12:40:41 pm »
    Think of it as evolution in action.
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #45 on: June 27, 2013, 05:03:23 pm »
    I love it. 

    Love wolves... I need another wolf pup.
    I miss Ranger and Raven.
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #47 on: June 28, 2013, 12:42:48 pm »
    And this just in... http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/extremely-rare-jaguar-spotted-arizona-mountains-201801945.html

    Oh goodie. Was it reported outside AZ what happened the last time a jaguar was spotted in AZ? Ethics seem to go completely out the window for the USFWS and AZGFD when grant money is involved  :facepalm

    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/20121215macho-b-death-jaguar-mystery.html
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #48 on: June 28, 2013, 02:28:18 pm »
    Oh goodie. Was it reported outside AZ what happened the last time a jaguar was spotted in AZ? Ethics seem to go completely out the window for the USFWS and AZGFD when grant money is involved  :facepalm

    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/20121215macho-b-death-jaguar-mystery.html

    I disagree with snares for many reasons. This is one of them. The cover-up and ethics going out the window for grant money is nothing new(Or specific to just biologists).

    My opinion is you stalk and dart the damn animal you wanna track. You only need to track a tiny, tiny amount of a population to get overall habits. So put you big girl pants on and learn to be a field biologist. Sometimes it means you must learn different skill sets than the desk jockey or lab types. This should have been the reason you got into field work.
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    Re: In the spirit of "how not to hunt bear"....
    « Reply #49 on: June 29, 2013, 01:10:40 am »
    Yup.  Crap like that makes me want to tear up my membership card for the human race.   :banghead
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