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Author Topic: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston  (Read 22175 times)

Langenator

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Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2013, 11:39:37 pm »
From what I understand, homeboy was actually found outside the perimeter the police had established to be searched.  The police were just about to pull back to try to figure things out, when Joe Homeowner came to them and reported blood on his shed and boat tarp, which led the cops to the suspect.

So, for all the SWAT guys rolling around with their armored trucks in their black ninja suits, it was an alert citizen who ultimately made the key find.

If it hadn't been for the Alert Citizen, I wonder how long the police would have tried to keep things locked down?
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    booksmart

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #76 on: April 20, 2013, 12:44:05 am »
    You'd like me to, wouldn't you?  :eh

    No, actually, because life in federal prison - if he makes it there - is no way to live. (or die)

    He and his brother killed what, four innocents (the three in the bombing, and the MIT cop)?

    As I related in my death penalty thread... if he shows no interest in reform, I have no interest in seeing him live. And certainly not enjoy it.

    strangelittleman

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #77 on: April 20, 2013, 12:56:07 am »
    From what I understand, homeboy was actually found outside the perimeter the police had established to be searched.  The police were just about to pull back to try to figure things out, when Joe Homeowner came to them and reported blood on his shed and boat tarp, which led the cops to the suspect.

    So, for all the SWAT guys rolling around with their armored trucks in their black ninja suits, it was an alert citizen who ultimately made the key find.

    If it hadn't been for the Alert Citizen, I wonder how long the police would have tried to keep things locked down?
    No, you're wrong, check the facts. The woman who alerted the police noticed the condition of the boat et al, was not the same as after the police had searched it. Cut the s___, he may be your homeboy, but not anybody in the rest of the country's.
    Stop all the internet anti-establishment toughguy BS.  Try serving your community and country before talking s___ about those who do. Have you ever even darkened the doorway of a recruiting office?
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    ksuguy

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #78 on: April 20, 2013, 01:01:43 am »
    If it were me, probably my "stockpile" of evil black sporting rifles and ammunition retention accessories that would be illegal if I lived in Boston.

    For somebody else, their stash of pot. There are lots of reasons an otherwise law abiding citizen might not want popos poking around.

    Even if there wasn't anything illegal, it could be a problem.   There are many of us that have enough (legal) guns and ammo to sufficiently freak out the uninformed.   You have to remember,  a handful of firearms and a few hundred rounds of ammo constitute a "huge arsenal" to these people.   For me,  that's not even a good trip to the range.    In a scenario like this, I could easily see an innocent person getting paraded around as a potential terrorist while the cops stood around for photos with the scary looking gun collection.
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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #79 on: April 20, 2013, 01:52:36 am »
    A quote that pertains to the earlier discussion:
    Quote
    But police said at a press conference after the standoff ended that Tsarnaev had escaped their manhunt and hid himself in the boat just one block outside of the perimeter they were searching.
    Says they caught him outside the perimeter  :shrug

    Try serving your community and country before talking s___ about those who do. Have you ever even darkened the doorway of a recruiting office?

    Not sure how that lends any assistance or detraction to someone's thought process about the current subject, doubly so discussing freedom and liberty vs oppression and official over reach, those who HAVEN'T served may have the more correct and pro-freedom perspective as they have not been the one desiring a more expedient way of doing things that might infringe upon the constitutional rights of those involved.

    Speaking of expedience trouncing the living daylights out of constitutional rights I present to you the raping of the 5th amendment:
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/boston-bomb-suspect-captured-alive-backyard-boat/story?id=18994511&#.UXIsMMp49ku

    Quote
    A senior Justice Department official told ABC News that federal law enforcement officials are invoking the public safety exception to the Miranda rights, so that Tsarnaev will be questioned immediately without having Miranda rights issued to him.
    Cause you know, the constitution is only for when life is rosy, there is no threat and all is well. Certainly wouldn't want to let that whole issue of freedom get in the way when someone might get hurt.   :shrug

    Or maybe I'm just a crazy radical.  :shrug


    LoneStarNational

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #80 on: April 20, 2013, 02:05:40 am »
    Not being read Miranda rights doesn't mean your rights have been violated, it just means they may not be able to use any statements you made against you in court. Your rights would only be violated if you made statements without a Miranda warning AND they use those statements as evidence. They probably figure they can get a conviction without his statements (there's likely a mountain of physical evidence against him), and they need intel on other conspirators, so they don't want to warn him that he can shut up and not talk. Provided his statements arent used against him by the prosecution, I have no issue with this.
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    LoneStarNational

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #81 on: April 20, 2013, 02:22:17 am »
    No, you're wrong, check the facts. The woman who alerted the police noticed the condition of the boat et al, was not the same as after the police had searched it. Cut the s___, he may be your homeboy, but not anybody in the rest of the country's.
    Stop all the internet anti-establishment toughguy BS.  Try serving your community and country before talking s___ about those who do. Have you ever even darkened the doorway of a recruiting office?

    Not sure where you're getting that info, I'm pretty sure I saw the police commissioner on CNN commenting on how they found him two blocks outside their perimeter. Also I don't really get the offense that you're taking, I didn't read anything disrespectful in Langenator's comment.  I read it simply as him observing irony in the situation. But maybe I missed something.

    Also, I don't think many of us here are that determined to make life difficult for police officers hunting for a fugitive terrorist who may be hiding out in our neighborhood. I just think the situation makes us a little uneasy, because the standard of "when the event is serious enough to get over it and cooperate" is somewhat of an arbitrary threshold.   Obviously the public needs to help find a terrorist, but what is the threshold for granting the police warrant-less entry just so we can be "team players".  Any murder? Any time a cop is killed? Any time there's a bomb?  I'm happy to be a team player, but what am I really signing up for on the long haul? Without those questions answered, I tend to default on the side of skeptical and suspicious.   

    As I said earlier, in this instance I would comply. But I'd feel better about it if I knew we were engaging in the broader conversation and not just defaulting to "if you don't feel good about cooperating, you're automatically a bastard".
    Texas"...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right..."  -Thomas Paine

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    Coronach

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #82 on: April 20, 2013, 02:27:01 am »
    Yep. I love it when suspects smugly tell me that I didn't read them Miranda, so they're gonna walk. Usually, if I look confused and ask what they're talking about, they'll recite the warning to me.

    "Oh, so you obviously know what your rights are. Thank you for demonstrating that, on the odd chance that it comes up later. Now, have I asked you any questions?"

    "Yeah, man. You did."

    "I mean, about the crime. Not the stuff to fill out the arrest form. Did I ask you what you did to get arrested?"

    "No."

    "Right. So, it doesn't matter. You're not gonna walk, genius."

    " ... oh."

    "Failure" to Miranda can make statements (and facts gleaned from them) inadmissable at trial, but it cannot invalidate an arrest. As a routine matter, we don't Miranda anyone we arrest for a felony, since they will be interviewed by detectives. We let the suits do that. And as to the "public safety exception", look up New York v Quarles. It's not like they're just winging it, here.

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #83 on: April 20, 2013, 02:34:59 am »

    Also, I don't think many of us here are that determined to make life difficult for police officers hunting for a fugitive terrorist who may be hiding out in our neighborhood. I just think the situation makes us a little uneasy, because the standard of "when the event is serious enough to get over it and cooperate" is somewhat of an arbitrary threshold.   Obviously the public needs to help find a terrorist, but what is the threshold for granting the police warrant-less entry just so we can be "team players".  Any murder? Any time a cop is killed? Any time there's a bomb?  I'm happy to be a team player, but what am I really signing up for on the long haul? Without those questions answered, I tend to default on the side of skeptical and suspicious.   

    As I said earlier, in this instance I would comply. But I'd feel better about it if I knew we were engaging in the broader conversation and not just defaulting to "if you don't feel good about cooperating, you're automatically a bastard".

    Umm, you nailed it. Couldn't add a thing to that statement.  :thumbup1



    Well I didn't expect them to take him alive no matter what.
    I'm impressed.  :thumbup1

    Yeah - that surprised me too - but, I'm glad they did - showed some restraint and discipline (I mean, who didn't want to blow his head off?!). But it does sound like the guy was pretty jacked up, and couldn't have fought back if he wanted to.

    And in real life non chest internet thumping circumstances, I wouldn't get into a shootout with them over illegally searching my house, I'd protest and lock the door on their ass.
    And as non-violently as possible make it as hard to search the premiss as possible as a means of civil disobedience. Then I'd sue the shiznit out of them. Because that is a out right violation of the constitution I don't care what the corrupt, political, decrepit court has to say about it.

    Dude - DR - that's what I said. We're on the same page - let them in although its clearly - but respectfully impressed that you're not giving them permission. Then sue them - - in court (the corrupt, political, decrepit one). .:-))

    On the Miranda issues - I think Lonestar and Coronach pretty much covered it.

    Bill
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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #84 on: April 20, 2013, 07:55:00 am »
    Yep. I love it when suspects smugly tell me that I didn't read them Miranda, so they're gonna walk...

    What's really funny is that American movies and TV are so ubiquitous in the english speaking world that many Canadians think they have the same rights.  Many of the rights are similar, but not the same, and the warning is different.  It is always vastly amusing to watch the police arrest a drunk dude who "knows his rights".
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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #85 on: April 20, 2013, 08:21:10 am »
    Try serving your community and country before talking s___ about those who do. Have you ever even darkened the doorway of a recruiting office?

    Out of curiosity, please define "serving your community and country" and why you would need to darken the doorway of a recruiting office to do so.

    I mean, at the local coffee shop, we have a cashier that serves the community daily, and at least half the community stops in there at least once a day.  She knows me by name, and I know hers.  Is that "serving your community"?  I think it is.

    I don't know the name of a single LEO in this town.  Granted, we've only lived here for a year, and I haven't done anything to get arrested for yet.  But the point is that I have gotten more "service" from the coffee girl than I will from the RCMP in a life time.  But still, both of them get paid.  Being an LEO is not some high minded and altruistic calling.

    Given all of that, what makes you feel that the opinion of an LEO is - not on grounds of education or knowledge - somehow more morally fit than that of a coffee shop clerk?
    "Nobody wants to be here and nobody wants to leave."
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    Langenator

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #86 on: April 20, 2013, 09:27:10 am »
    No, you're wrong, check the facts. The woman who alerted the police noticed the condition of the boat et al, was not the same as after the police had searched it. Cut the s___, he may be your homeboy, but not anybody in the rest of the country's.
    Stop all the internet anti-establishment toughguy BS.  Try serving your community and country before talking s___ about those who do. Have you ever even darkened the doorway of a recruiting office?
    Since I've been in the Army since June of 1996, I'll accept your apology now.  Or do you want to see my ID card?

    Edit:  I'll add some more here, having now read everything that came after the above quoted statement.

    As many other have said, my concern (one of them) is for the whole idea of house-to-house searches without warrants, just based on the idea that the guy is somewhere in the area.  To my mind, "probable cause" or "reasonable" means you've got a blood trail, foot prints, etc, leading to my house, or he was seen entering.

    And the other concern - placing thousands of people under effective house arrest, based on the fact that you've got one armed and dangerous individual on the loose.  I understand the intent - to make the operating space less complicated for the cops, try to reduce the suspect's ability to move, or make him more visible when he does. 
    To my mind, there's a huge difference between requesting that people remain in their homes, for their own safety and to assist police, and ordering it and, as I stated, placing thousands of people under effective house arrest for an indeterminate period of time.

    Oh, and if the guy had managed to get into a place that the cops had already searched, doesn't that make them actually looked worse?  It means he had somehow evaded them, and had reached a place that, having already searched it and found it clear, the police wouldn't be likely to search again.  Absent the tip from the aforementioned Alert Citizen.

    And for future reference, I generally use the term 'homeboy' sarcastically.
    « Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 09:56:14 am by Langenator »
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    strangelittleman

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #87 on: April 20, 2013, 10:40:39 am »
    SeanP, By serving one's community and country I mean putting themselves in harm's way...and yes being an LEO is altruistic, in the same sense as that of a serving military member in that they volunteer to protect the citizenry, whereas the coffee clerk does none of that.

    As for the terrorist being outside the perimeter, a clearer pic will come out in the days to follow. at about 2030-2100hrs last night, Fox (Shep Smith) were purportedly on the phone w/ the owners of the property where he was holed up and a lady on the phone said that the Police had already swept through and some time after was when it was noticed there was blood on the boat and a strap was cut....who knows? I'm pretty sure thess events will get armchaired to death over the next few days (weeks).

    Langenator, I am sorry that I was a bit harsh with you and I appreciate your service in the Army and I truly do thank you for placing yourself between us and those who would do us harm.
    However, it wouldn't matter if you were the Chief of Staff, neither you, I, nor anyone else here should be making BS comments about the organizations who have lost men, or had them wounded trying to safeguard the public, while we're safely ensconced in our comfortable homes hundreds or thousands of miles away.
    It's the same stance I take for those who put themselves in harm's way regardless of whether they're Military, Fire, Police etc.

    To all I have pissed off in the past few hours,( Lang, LSN, and all others) I apologize. I have been in a particularly foul mood as we/I have lost a dear family member (My beloved Mother-in law) and am utterly exhausted with helping my wife and her family make arrangements. I do not offer this up as an excuse, I'm just giving an honest explanation for my being such an ass over the last few hours. ( the rest of the time that I am generally an ass is all on me! ;) )
    I should know better than to post on such an emotional topic, while in such a foul state of mind.
    « Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 11:12:51 am by strangelittleman »
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    LoneStarNational

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #88 on: April 20, 2013, 10:54:50 am »
    To all I have pissed off in the past few hours,( Lang, LSN, and all others) I apologize. I have been in a particularly foul mood as I have lost a dear family member (My beloved Mother-in law) and am utterly exhausted with helping my wife and her family make arrangements. I do not off this up as an excuse, I'm just giving an honest explanation for my being such an ass over the last few hours. ( the rest of the time that I am generally an ass is all on me! ;) )
    I should know better than to post on such an emotional topic, while in such a foul state of mind.

     ;) We've all done it.  This is a community, and we have relationships.  It may be online, but from time to time things go just like real-world community and real-world relationships- they get a little rough.  These are senstive topics we discuss around here some times, and frankly, I'm not worried about it. 

    Mostly I'm just grateful for the degree of intellectual discourse we have around here and the freedom we have to probe sensitive topics, and to disagree about them.  That's how we all learn.  And like I said earlier, the illegal entry thing comes up rather more frequently than is probably truly necessary, and is ALWAYS a sensitive topic.  So my apologies to those who get a little miffed by it, and my thanks to those of you who put up with what I see as an important intellectual discussion, even if it sometimes wanders into slightly inappropriate venues.
    Texas"...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right..."  -Thomas Paine

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    Kaso

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #89 on: April 20, 2013, 10:59:55 am »
    I'm sure we are all sorry for your (wife's) loss. 

    Yes, you were a bit volatile yesterday, but we all get that way occasionally.  Most of us have, here, on WTA.

    In the interest of helping this thread avoid a premature death, I say we just move on and forget about this one.


    Also... SLM, if you hung out here more often, you might have known the Lang. was Army... ;)



    Kaso

    strangelittleman

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #90 on: April 20, 2013, 11:15:08 am »
    I was wrong.
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    LoneStarNational

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #91 on: April 20, 2013, 11:21:26 am »
    I gotta say, it has been one hell of a news week.  Bombing, Whodunnit, Gun-Control Bill, Suspects, Found the guy killing DA's, Plant explosion, murder of police officer, car chase/shootout, biggest/most intense manhunt in the history of the country, gunfight/flashbangs, arrest...and all more or less on live tv.   And we thought the OJ chase on live t.v. was a big deal...

     I'm generally a news junky, but I especially couldn't break away from it this week.  I'm fluffing exhausted.
    Texas"...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right..."  -Thomas Paine

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    strangelittleman

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #92 on: April 20, 2013, 11:34:33 am »
    I can't help but wonder what amount of intel they'll be able to glean from the terrorist? Lots of unanswered questions about other cells, missions, leadership, organizational structure (if any), etc.......

    As for the why.......Here's a good acronym for why a person will turn against/betray or "go over to the other side".
    M.I.C.E.

    M- Money
    I- Ideology
    C- Compromised
    E- Ego

    If you look back at all the cases of betrayal, espionage ( Aldrich Ames, Hansen, The Wilsons, etc) or in this case these two brothers who turned against the very country that adopted them, an you'll be able to find one or more ( any combo) of the letters in the above acronym. 
    « Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 11:45:41 am by strangelittleman »
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    LoneStarNational

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #93 on: April 20, 2013, 11:43:49 am »
    I can't help but wonder what amount of intel they'll be able to glean from the terrorist? Lots of unanswered questions about other cells, missions, leadership, organizational structure (if any), etc.......

    IF there's any intel to be had, I bet the kid will talk.  My (uninformed) suspicion is that this kid isn't a true believer, he's a little brother who got dragged into something by his big brother (not that that excuses a damned thing).  Big brother went to Russia, big brother went down guns blazing with some sort of explosives on his person, while little brother seems to have fought tooth and nail to escape, evade, and survive, and then when the gig was up, he gave up.  I'm guessing he doesn't have much fight left in him.

    But there's also a chance these two were lone wolf and learned to build bombs on UTubez, and there's no intelligence to be had beyond that.  I'm actually leaning that way right now...  At least, I want it to be that way....
    Texas"...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right..."  -Thomas Paine

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    LoneStarNational

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #94 on: April 20, 2013, 11:48:07 am »
    Actually, I don't know which way is better.  Lone wolf means we got them and the imminent threat is done.  But lone wolf also opens a bigger pandoras box-  a non-tangible enemy who could pop up at any time, as opposed to a known organization to fight.  Lone wolf also means this type of attack requires less training and less resources and is more reproduce-able than something that requires a terrorist to go to Russia or Afghanistan to learn.
    Texas"...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right..."  -Thomas Paine

    "You all can go to hell... I'm going to Texas."  -Davy Crockett

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    sarge712

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #95 on: April 20, 2013, 12:35:38 pm »
    While I believe they were lone wolves, I also believe strongly that there are other cells waiting to activate but its anyone's guess as to why they haven't.

    Imagine if these guys had been Russian or Iranian spec ops or trained by such. Sure they aren't the same league as US spec ops but they would have been a darn sight harder to pin down than the Tsarnaev brothers. I'm not so sure that local LEO's and the feds did such a good job as much as it was the Tsarnaev's were bumbling idiots in over their heads.

    Who would have though the bombers would still be in the area with no pre-staged resources or escape routes? Robbing a store and stealing a car? Why weren't cash and cars prepped ahead of time? No safehouse or escape plane? All that considered together screams unprofessional and untrained. Had they been the afore-mentioned spec ops teams, there would have been squads of dead LEO's. One spec ops guy would be bad enough but a team would be hell. Overall, in the big scheme of things and considering what it could have been, this was a pissant attack to quote Lt. Col. Grossman as he explained it early this past week.
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    booksmart

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #96 on: April 20, 2013, 01:53:40 pm »
    I agree on the lone wolf assessment.

    While they may have had some cause/ideology in mind (the Chechnya/Muslim connection), I doubt there's someone pulling their strings past some radical cleric yelling "Death to the heathens"... Though there have been some Chechen separatist plots that have struck at other international sports events... :scrutiny

    Fluff it, we'll know when we know. :shrug

    Gunnguy

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #97 on: April 20, 2013, 01:54:58 pm »
    Imagine, if you will, a few "leaders" who recruit online 'participants' who ally themselves with radicalism.
    A few at a time or a whole coordinated set of attacks, is does not matter.
    Chaos would ensue. Did ensue.
    Our LEO's are totally unprepared for a series of attacks let alone one single, minor (in lieu of past attacks around the world) incident.
    It will be John and Jill Q. Public that will be the major factor against future attacks and the biggest help in finding those responsible in successful attempts.
    Our founder's were wise beyond their years.
    The solution is staring us in the face.
    The Constitution spells it out.
    Law abiding, Civilian Militias trained and equipped by the Government (Both state and federal) with ammunition and full auto capable, military grade weapons and equipment.
    Keep them trained through quarterly or semi-annual programs to bring everyone up to speed and repair/test functionality of gear.
    Also...
    Eliminate a sheeple like mentality by positively reinforcing the populace to engage in their own Liberty, Freedom, Community (Love thy neighbor as thyself), and Government (Watching the watchers so to speak).
    Encourage shooting sports, survival skills (hunting, fishing, camping, hiking), training in tactical defense both armed and unarmed combat skills.
    This would go a long way to ferreting out enemies both foreign and domestic.



    Indiana'The average response time of a 911 call is over 23 minutes, the average response time of a .44 magnum is 1400 feet per second.'

    Chrissmitty820

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #98 on: April 20, 2013, 03:24:25 pm »
    IF there's any intel to be had, I bet the kid will talk.  My (uninformed) suspicion is that this kid isn't a true believer, he's a little brother who got dragged into something by his big brother (not that that excuses a damned thing).  Big brother went to Russia, big brother went down guns blazing with some sort of explosives on his person, while little brother seems to have fought tooth and nail to escape, evade, and survive, and then when the gig was up, he gave up.  I'm guessing he doesn't have much fight left in him.

    But there's also a chance these two were lone wolf and learned to build bombs on UTubez, and there's no intelligence to be had beyond that.  I'm actually leaning that way right now...  At least, I want it to be that way....

    One thing that may back up your idea here, is if the kid brother killed anyone while escaping, specifically after the older one died. If not, I think that would go a long way towards "drug into it."

    None of this excuses ANYTHING that had been done, but it would show that he had no stomach for the long game, and was less than a 'true believer' in whatever cause started this whole thing.
    Texas

    Langenator

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #99 on: April 20, 2013, 03:44:39 pm »
    I'm not so sure that local LEO's and the feds did such a good job as much as it was the Tsarnaev's were bumbling idiots in over their heads.

    Who would have though the bombers would still be in the area with no pre-staged resources or escape routes? Robbing a store and stealing a car? Why weren't cash and cars prepped ahead of time? No safehouse or escape plane? All that considered together screams unprofessional and untrained.

    I was telling the Mrs over dinner last night, from my foxhole it looks like they probably thought they could drop the bombs without getting ID'ed.  They were still local because they thought they'd gotten out clean.  All of the craziness Wednesday night seemed to start not too long after the FBI posted their pictures, which, by my guess, was followed by panic on their part.

    The one interesting thing is that, unlike most of the previous self-actuated jihadists, these two didn't seem to be intent on dieing while carrying out their attack. 

    I also think that, if he hadn't already been wounded before he was discovered, brother #2 would have continued to try to E&E.
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