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Author Topic: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston  (Read 22163 times)

xsquidgator

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Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2013, 12:54:13 pm »
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/04/19/177923309/a-timeline-of-the-boston-manhunt?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130419

This is gonna last a while... crafty bastadge...

If that last guy has any sense, he's shaved his head and is now wearing a wig and an evening dress.  Make that shaved his head and his legs too.
Someone at work just asked how 9,000 cops could be looking for him and not find him - there are a lot of places to hide in a city aren't there?

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    Panhead Bill

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #26 on: April 19, 2013, 01:05:29 pm »
    This whole lock-down made me wonder - while all of MA is hiding, locked in their homes, and the authorities are doing door-to-door searches, what happens to the guy who opens his door to the police and doesn't want to allow them to search his home?  I know I'd be hesitant to allow them to search my place.

    Bill
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    LoneStarNational

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #27 on: April 19, 2013, 01:07:30 pm »
    So is there legal ground for a "stay inside order"/lockdown by the police, or is it just a very strong request?
    Texas"...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right..."  -Thomas Paine

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    Kaso

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #28 on: April 19, 2013, 01:21:52 pm »
    So is there legal ground for a "stay inside order"/lockdown by the police, or is it just a very strong request?
    My guess, is either a strong request, or an illegal order...  but would you really want to refuse?  Not me.  Those boys (BPD) are not going to be in the mood to play games.



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    Nick Cage

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #29 on: April 19, 2013, 01:29:51 pm »
    The thing that is bugging me about this whole thing is that there are a lot of folks who are on our side (Conservative, pro-gun, pro-liberty) who are jumping up and down all "Yeah kill their ass, gun them DOWN" etc.

    But that's not the way we do things here, sure they are probably guilty as sin in a whore house, but we don't do things that way in America.
    We try our best to capture, try and find facts on folks we accuse of things as a society.

    But I don't think anyone could honestly say that this dude they are hunting right now, could come out stark nekked, hands empty and over his head yelling that he's surrendering, and survive the experience. Folks are out for blood.

    And lets not even bother to get into the utter trampling of 4th Amendment as they do house to house searches through the entire area from what I can tell.

    I mean if the Constitution and its limitations on government action against Americans mean ANYTHING right now, this kind of situation is exactly when its most imperative that we don't violate it and that we protect liberty and freedom from convenient encroachments for expediency's sake in the name of "public safety" whatever that is. 

    Panhead Bill

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #30 on: April 19, 2013, 01:46:37 pm »

    And lets not even bother to get into the utter trampling of 4th Amendment as they do house to house searches through the entire area from what I can tell.


    That's why I asked what happens to the poor schlub that tries to exercise his 4th Amendment rights and says, "no sir, you cannot search my house."  Technically, legally, the police would have to say thank you, have a nice day, and be on their way - but I somehow doubt that will be the case - unfortunately.

    I mean if the Constitution and its limitations on government action against Americans mean ANYTHING right now, this kind of situation is exactly when its most imperative that we don't violate it and that we protect liberty and freedom from convenient encroachments for expediency's sake in the name of "public safety" whatever that is. 
    I couldn't agree more!!

    I'd like to see this dirtbag get taken into custody, and actually face the justice system - whether it's criminal or military. (And to get possible intel). However, I'd be shocked to see him make it out of this alive. (That's not to say lethal force won't be justified, it likely will be required, in fact).

    Bill
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    Matthew Mayner

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #31 on: April 19, 2013, 01:51:38 pm »
    It's okay to gun the bad guys down when they're actively shooting.  Any other time not so much.  But... sometimes justice is served better by a bullet than a court system that takes decades to kill murderers on death row.

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    Nick Cage

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #32 on: April 19, 2013, 01:58:18 pm »
    But... sometimes justice is served better by a bullet than a court system that takes decades to kill murderers on death row.

    That's not American justice though, American justice is done by rule of law not emotional yahoos with guns or armed citizens either for that matter.

    Storyteller

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #33 on: April 19, 2013, 02:11:51 pm »
    "  They're apparently worried about Djohar having a suicide vest."
    [/quote]

    I say let him use it.  :coffee  If it'sa homicide vest, different story. Suicide(his) is fine with me.
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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #34 on: April 19, 2013, 02:25:59 pm »
    American justice?  Are you saying our current "justice" system provides any justice?  We need to take the gloves off.

    Things were better when we did this to criminals.



    These were the Lincoln assassination conspirators.
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    Nick Cage

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #35 on: April 19, 2013, 02:35:11 pm »
    American justice?  Are you saying our current "justice" system provides any justice?  We need to take the gloves off.

    Things were better when we did this to criminals.



    These were the Lincoln assassination conspirators.


    No argument there.
    But it should be done dispassionately, coldly, with an impartial jury and judge weighing the evidence and coming to a fair verdict of innocence or should the evidence (and only the evidence) provide beyond a reasonable doubt proof that the person accused did commit the crime they are accused of, then a swift, humane and imminent execution of the sentence. The appeals process is important too so I'd say 4 - 6 months for their appeals to be processed, should they not be found innocent on appeal, well you have a good picture there. 

    Coronach

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #36 on: April 19, 2013, 02:42:11 pm »
    My guess, is either a strong request, or an illegal order...  but would you really want to refuse?  Not me.  Those boys (BPD) are not going to be in the mood to play games.



    Kaso
    AFAIK, it would be a strong request, though there may be a statute allowing a ban on vehicular traffic (usually those are weather related, but it depends on how the statute is written). Police obviously have the authority to regular vehicular and pedestrian in a given area, but usually that is limited to distinct area (active crime scenes), not a whole town.

    Now, when you get down to it, you probably WANT to cooperate, simply because you want this guy caught or killed. The best way to do this is to let the police do their thing. We're on the same team.

    The idea of 4th Amendment violations is, AFAIK, at this point, purely speculative. I've done door to door searches before (though not like this), and you end up with one of the following at any given house:

    1. No one answers, no signs of forced entry. You check the outside of the house for the BG or signs of activity, move on.

    2. No one answers, signs of forced entry or a door open. You go in and clear the house. Why? Because you are looking for a dangerous person, they could have a hostage inside.

    3. Someone home, they answer the door. You talk to them. If you find it plausible that they could be harboring the BG, you request permission to come in and look. If they refuse, you have to decide if you have PC to get a warrant, or the exigent circumstances to bypass one.

    Mike

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    TommyGunn

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #37 on: April 19, 2013, 02:51:35 pm »
    That's why I asked what happens to the poor schlub that tries to exercise his 4th Amendment rights and says, "no sir, you cannot search my house."  Technically, legally, the police would have to say thank you, have a nice day, and be on their way - but I somehow doubt that will be the case - unfortunately.

    Bill


    Remember the Constitution only prohibits "unreasonable" searches & seizures.  During an event such as this, where two terrorist bombers are on the loose, searching and seizing in neighborhood homes when it's believed he may be hiding out in a neighborhood is very likely to be considered "reasonable." 
    I would be interested in how the police are actually conducting this search....rather than simply worrying over supposed usurpations of 4th amendment rights......but that.s just me ....  (I guess).
    "Through ignorance of what is good and what is bad, the life of men is greatly perplexed." ~~ Cicero.

    LoneStarNational

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #38 on: April 19, 2013, 02:52:12 pm »
    Now, when you get down to it, you probably WANT to cooperate, simply because you want this guy caught or killed. The best way to do this is to let the police do their thing. We're on the same team.

    Sure. I'd have no desire to make these guys' job any harder than it already is at a time like this. If they came to my door, I'd be more likely to offer them a cool glass of ice tea or hot cup of coffee than to make a fuss with them. But I'd also like to know I won't be arrested for trying to go check on my mother or girlfriend, or going out to get diapers for the baby, etc (not that many stores are likely to be open).
    Texas"...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right..."  -Thomas Paine

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    Panhead Bill

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #39 on: April 19, 2013, 03:01:51 pm »
    Remember the Constitution only prohibits "unreasonable" searches & seizures.  During an event such as this, where two terrorist bombers are on the loose, searching and seizing in neighborhood homes when it's believed he may be hiding out in a neighborhood is very likely to be considered "reasonable." 
    I would be interested in how the police are actually conducting this search....rather than simply worrying over supposed usurpations of 4th amendment rights......but that.s just me ....  (I guess).

    Eh - based on case history, I don't think a door-to-door forced search would be found reasonable. Now, if there was reason to believe the bad guy was in the neighborhood - maybe, reason to think they were in that house - definitely. But just searching every house?  I doubt it.

    Somehow I lost my last post saying that in all honesty, in the interest of "playing nice" I'd most likely invite them in and show them around. (Assuming they're not a-holes about it).

    Bill
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    LoneStarNational

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #40 on: April 19, 2013, 03:12:02 pm »
    (Assuming they're not a-holes about it).

    Mutual respect in this regard is pretty important to me. There's a big difference (for me) in "Open up on the name of the law!" And "Sorry to bother you sir, I'm sure you're as rattled as we are by all this. We just wanted to pop in and make sure everybody is okay here."
    Texas"...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right..."  -Thomas Paine

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    Sarge

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #41 on: April 19, 2013, 03:16:11 pm »
    More than likely their looking for furtive behavior from the person that opens the door. Clearing a whole neighborhood is time consuming so if the homeowner answers the door with good attitude and says its all clear and check if you want, Most will probably move on to the next spot.
    New York"If you’re not shootin’, you should be loadin’. If you’re not loadin’, you should be movin’. If you’re not movin’, someone’s gonna cut your head off and put it on a stick."--Clint Smith

    Matthew Mayner

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #42 on: April 19, 2013, 03:27:15 pm »
    No argument there.
    But it should be done dispassionately, coldly, with an impartial jury and judge weighing the evidence and coming to a fair verdict of innocence or should the evidence (and only the evidence) provide beyond a reasonable doubt proof that the person accused did commit the crime they are accused of, then a swift, humane and imminent execution of the sentence. The appeals process is important too so I'd say 4 - 6 months for their appeals to be processed, should they not be found innocent on appeal, well you have a good picture there. 

    I totally agree with you there.  Unfortunately our justice system is so broken.
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    Feud

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #43 on: April 19, 2013, 03:36:14 pm »
    Person I've just heard from said that the police first surrounded the house, then some came to the door and asked to search.

    Panhead Bill

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #44 on: April 19, 2013, 03:42:27 pm »
    Person I've just heard from said that the police first surrounded the house, then some came to the door and asked to search.

    Wow - that's gonna take a lot of time and manpower.
    California

    Sarge

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #45 on: April 19, 2013, 03:44:59 pm »
    Gotta give mad props for thoroughness. :o
    New York"If you’re not shootin’, you should be loadin’. If you’re not loadin’, you should be movin’. If you’re not movin’, someone’s gonna cut your head off and put it on a stick."--Clint Smith

    Nick Cage

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #46 on: April 19, 2013, 03:51:05 pm »
    My definition of "reasonable" is unless you see someone run in my house shooting wildly or throwing bombs or some such. You can bring your happy ass back with a warrant.
     :cool


    I totally agree with you there.  Unfortunately our justice system is so broken.

    Most of our entire system of government is so, so broken.

    LoneStarNational

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #47 on: April 19, 2013, 04:17:35 pm »
    My definition of "reasonable" is unless you see someone run in my house shooting wildly or throwing bombs or some such. You can bring your happy ass back with a warrant.

    While I generally agree with this, I also reserve the right to be in a good mood and to cooperate because I choose to.  It's my house, and I can choose invite in whomever I like, even police...And not because "I support the trampling of rights in the name of national security", but simply because I was in a good mood and was feeling hospitable.
    Texas"...a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right..."  -Thomas Paine

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    Nick Cage

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #48 on: April 19, 2013, 04:39:48 pm »
    While I generally agree with this, I also reserve the right to be in a good mood and to cooperate because I choose to.  It's my house, and I can choose invite in whomever I like, even police...And not because "I support the trampling of rights in the name of national security", but simply because I was in a good mood and was feeling hospitable.

    I agree totally, your property your prerogative.

    Panhead Bill

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    Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
    « Reply #49 on: April 19, 2013, 04:57:08 pm »
    My definition of "reasonable" is unless you see someone run in my house shooting wildly or throwing bombs or some such. You can bring your happy ass back with a warrant.
     :cool

    Problem is that 200 years of lawyers (damn them!) has redefined "reasonable" into some 10-page stupid definition that has no relation to reality.

    Bill (the damn lawyer)
    California

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