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General Topics => General Non-Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: sarge712 on April 19, 2013, 01:59:55 am

Title: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: sarge712 on April 19, 2013, 01:59:55 am
Im listening to Boston PD, FD and EMS via a scanner app on my kindle. Grenades, explosives, carjackings, running gunbattles near a hospital. One, maybe two LEO 's possibly KIA. Somewhere near an Upland Rd. and also a Shirley St.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: strangelittleman on April 19, 2013, 02:06:31 am
Yep, I just saw that a Campus Police Officer on MIT's campus has been killed via multiple GSW, purportedly 1 suspect is wounded and in custody and at least 1 other suspect is at large.......Reports of at least one explosion on campus.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Gunnguy on April 19, 2013, 08:00:34 am
When you don't have secure borders and an appathetic DHS gutting border agents and hours. No fence...no checks...acting like being here illegally is no big deal...small wonder this finally happened. Were turning into France, Spain, and Britain.


Sent from my LG-LS855 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Gunnguy on April 19, 2013, 08:09:49 am
When you don't have secure borders and an appathetic DHS gutting border agents and hours. No fence...no checks...acting like being here illegally is no big deal...small wonder this finally happened. Were turning into France, Spain, and Britain.


Sent from my LG-LS855 using Tapatalk 2
Correction...this type of crap will happen more and more. Because we are apathetical. Boston should be our reality check backed up by nine eleven. These people are serious. And they will turn us into Serejevo if they can.

Sent from my LG-LS855 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: strangelittleman on April 19, 2013, 08:16:37 am
It looks to be Chechens......1 dead and one ( A 19yr old, last name-Zardiev) is on the run.

Correction: as of 0838hrs, the last name is Tsarnaev, Tamerlan 26 yrs old (now dead) and 19yr old brother Dhrokar (sp?)
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 19, 2013, 08:35:50 am
When you don't have secure borders and an appathetic DHS gutting border agents and hours. No fence...no checks...acting like being here illegally is no big deal...small wonder this finally happened. Were turning into France, Spain, and Britain.


Sent from my LG-LS855 using Tapatalk 2

Given their age, I won't be surprised if they were here on student visas.  :coffee
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Feud on April 19, 2013, 09:00:02 am
When you don't have secure borders and an appathetic DHS gutting border agents and hours. No fence...no checks...acting like being here illegally is no big deal...small wonder this finally happened. Were turning into France, Spain, and Britain.

What are you talking about?  Everything I've seen so far says that they came here legally.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 19, 2013, 09:14:12 am
*nods* They were able to identify the younger brother (the one currently at large) from Driver's License records - Dzokhar Tsarnaev.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: xsquidgator on April 19, 2013, 09:28:00 am
Those damned Presbyterians again... gotta do something about those religious zealots.  Thank goodness the liberals want to take our guns away.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Nightcrawler on April 19, 2013, 09:29:10 am
http://vk.com/id160300242 (http://vk.com/id160300242)

His profile on some social media site.

(http://cs10755.vk.me/u160300242/-6/x_b495bca9.jpg)

Quote
Djohar Tsarnaev
В школе задают загадку..Едет
автомобиль. В нем сидят – дагестанец,
чеченец и ингуш.
Вопрос – кто ведет машину ?
Мага отвечает: - Полиция.

Apparently he's still posting.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Avenger29 on April 19, 2013, 09:31:42 am
http://vk.com/id160300242 (http://vk.com/id160300242)

His profile on some social media site.

(http://cs10755.vk.me/u160300242/-6/x_b495bca9.jpg)

Apparently he's still posting.

Good. Track him down via computer usage and kill him.

Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Nightcrawler on April 19, 2013, 09:32:32 am
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/19/gunshots-reported-on-mit-campus/ (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/04/19/gunshots-reported-on-mit-campus/)

Quote
BREAKING NEWS: Multiple explosions echoed from inside a house as police in Boston massed inside a perimeter set up to contain the remaining suspect in the Boston Marathon bombing.

The situation was fluid, and the latest development came in the city's Watertown section after a chaotic night of mayhem that included the murder of a Massachusetts Institute of Technology police officer and a shootout with police, authorities said early Friday.

http://www.myfoxboston.com/category/262392/boston-marathon (http://www.myfoxboston.com/category/262392/boston-marathon)

Live feed from local TV station.  They're apparently worried about Djohar having a suicide vest.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Nightcrawler on April 19, 2013, 09:33:07 am


Quote
Good. Track him down via computer usage and kill him.

They apparently have him surrounded already.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Langenator on April 19, 2013, 09:37:45 am
Correction...this type of crap will happen more and more. Because we are apathetical. Boston should be our reality check backed up by nine eleven. These people are serious. And they will turn us into Serejevo if they can.

Here's some background on them from the AP: http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/article/The-stories-of-2-brothers-suspected-in-bombing-4447316.php (http://www.sfgate.com/news/us/article/The-stories-of-2-brothers-suspected-in-bombing-4447316.php)

They've apparently been in the US for roughly 10 years, which, given their ages, means they came here as kids, I assume with their parents.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: luke213(adamsholsters) on April 19, 2013, 10:03:20 am
His "world view" on Facebook is Islam so there is that;)

Luke

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Nick Cage on April 19, 2013, 10:19:18 am
His "world view" on Facebook is Islam so there is that;)


Yea it looks like these guys are the latest emissaries from the religion of peace.

On a related note, it looks like the democrats aren't letting this crisis go to waste:

http://fishgame.com/gunnews/?p=1557  (http://fishgame.com/gunnews/?p=1557)
Yippie.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Matthew Mayner on April 19, 2013, 10:42:09 am
Here's the $10,000 question.  Are these guys acting alone, or are they just the first in a series of terrorist cells about to activate?
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: xsquidgator on April 19, 2013, 11:35:15 am
We were discussing this at work today.  So, in Massachusetts, they lock down an entire city and won't give bathroom passes to ANYONE while hunter-killer teams look for the guy.

I wonder why we don't see this / what would happen if this happened in say Texas?  You'd have 10,000+ guys with evil precious-bodily-fluid-corrupting black rifles out there, the posse that brought his head back on a stake wouldn't have to ever buy a beer again, and people wouldn't be locked into their apartments hoping no one steals their laundry out of the basement drier before they get the bad guy.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: schapm on April 19, 2013, 11:39:38 am
Here's the $10,000 question.  Are these guys acting alone, or are they just the first in a series of terrorist cells about to activate?

The Perfect Day?
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 19, 2013, 11:41:32 am
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/04/19/177923309/a-timeline-of-the-boston-manhunt?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130419 (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/04/19/177923309/a-timeline-of-the-boston-manhunt?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130419)

This is gonna last a while... crafty bastadge...
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Feud on April 19, 2013, 12:00:12 pm
Seems a bit weird that they would rob a 7/11 and then randomly shoot a cop.  Maybe with their faces on every television they got desperate?
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: ksuguy on April 19, 2013, 12:05:12 pm
Maybe they needed cash.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Coronach on April 19, 2013, 12:17:46 pm
They were flushed and got desperate. Desperation leads to odd, violent behaviour.

Mike
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Feud on April 19, 2013, 12:43:59 pm
The interview with the uncle was rather interesting.

On one hand I feel bad for them, this must be awful for those in the family who came here, worked hard, and are making a better life for themselves. A betrayal of everything they've done right.

But on the other hand his honesty and lack of beating around the bush also made things rather funny:

Quote
Reporter- "What do you think provoked this?"

Uncle- "Being losers."

I like this guy.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: aikorob on April 19, 2013, 12:48:39 pm
FWIW:
Conspiracy theories started this morning---got to be "somebody" pulling their strings
if they are smart enough to make these bombs by themselves....why did they STAY in town? why did they take a route through all of the cameras
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: xsquidgator on April 19, 2013, 12:54:13 pm
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/04/19/177923309/a-timeline-of-the-boston-manhunt?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130419 (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/04/19/177923309/a-timeline-of-the-boston-manhunt?utm_source=NPR&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130419)

This is gonna last a while... crafty bastadge...

If that last guy has any sense, he's shaved his head and is now wearing a wig and an evening dress.  Make that shaved his head and his legs too.
Someone at work just asked how 9,000 cops could be looking for him and not find him - there are a lot of places to hide in a city aren't there?
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Panhead Bill on April 19, 2013, 01:05:29 pm
This whole lock-down made me wonder - while all of MA is hiding, locked in their homes, and the authorities are doing door-to-door searches, what happens to the guy who opens his door to the police and doesn't want to allow them to search his home?  I know I'd be hesitant to allow them to search my place.

Bill
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 19, 2013, 01:07:30 pm
So is there legal ground for a "stay inside order"/lockdown by the police, or is it just a very strong request?
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Kaso on April 19, 2013, 01:21:52 pm
So is there legal ground for a "stay inside order"/lockdown by the police, or is it just a very strong request?
My guess, is either a strong request, or an illegal order...  but would you really want to refuse?  Not me.  Those boys (BPD) are not going to be in the mood to play games.



Kaso
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Nick Cage on April 19, 2013, 01:29:51 pm
The thing that is bugging me about this whole thing is that there are a lot of folks who are on our side (Conservative, pro-gun, pro-liberty) who are jumping up and down all "Yeah kill their ass, gun them DOWN" etc.

But that's not the way we do things here, sure they are probably guilty as sin in a whore house, but we don't do things that way in America.
We try our best to capture, try and find facts on folks we accuse of things as a society.

But I don't think anyone could honestly say that this dude they are hunting right now, could come out stark nekked, hands empty and over his head yelling that he's surrendering, and survive the experience. Folks are out for blood.

And lets not even bother to get into the utter trampling of 4th Amendment as they do house to house searches through the entire area from what I can tell.

I mean if the Constitution and its limitations on government action against Americans mean ANYTHING right now, this kind of situation is exactly when its most imperative that we don't violate it and that we protect liberty and freedom from convenient encroachments for expediency's sake in the name of "public safety" whatever that is. 
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Panhead Bill on April 19, 2013, 01:46:37 pm

And lets not even bother to get into the utter trampling of 4th Amendment as they do house to house searches through the entire area from what I can tell.


That's why I asked what happens to the poor schlub that tries to exercise his 4th Amendment rights and says, "no sir, you cannot search my house."  Technically, legally, the police would have to say thank you, have a nice day, and be on their way - but I somehow doubt that will be the case - unfortunately.

I mean if the Constitution and its limitations on government action against Americans mean ANYTHING right now, this kind of situation is exactly when its most imperative that we don't violate it and that we protect liberty and freedom from convenient encroachments for expediency's sake in the name of "public safety" whatever that is. 
I couldn't agree more!!

I'd like to see this dirtbag get taken into custody, and actually face the justice system - whether it's criminal or military. (And to get possible intel). However, I'd be shocked to see him make it out of this alive. (That's not to say lethal force won't be justified, it likely will be required, in fact).

Bill
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Matthew Mayner on April 19, 2013, 01:51:38 pm
It's okay to gun the bad guys down when they're actively shooting.  Any other time not so much.  But... sometimes justice is served better by a bullet than a court system that takes decades to kill murderers on death row.

Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Nick Cage on April 19, 2013, 01:58:18 pm
But... sometimes justice is served better by a bullet than a court system that takes decades to kill murderers on death row.

That's not American justice though, American justice is done by rule of law not emotional yahoos with guns or armed citizens either for that matter.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Storyteller on April 19, 2013, 02:11:51 pm
"  They're apparently worried about Djohar having a suicide vest."
[/quote]

I say let him use it.  :coffee  If it'sa homicide vest, different story. Suicide(his) is fine with me.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Matthew Mayner on April 19, 2013, 02:25:59 pm
American justice?  Are you saying our current "justice" system provides any justice?  We need to take the gloves off.

Things were better when we did this to criminals.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Lincoln_conspirators_execution2.jpg/602px-Lincoln_conspirators_execution2.jpg)

These were the Lincoln assassination conspirators.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Nick Cage on April 19, 2013, 02:35:11 pm
American justice?  Are you saying our current "justice" system provides any justice?  We need to take the gloves off.

Things were better when we did this to criminals.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f5/Lincoln_conspirators_execution2.jpg/602px-Lincoln_conspirators_execution2.jpg)

These were the Lincoln assassination conspirators.


No argument there.
But it should be done dispassionately, coldly, with an impartial jury and judge weighing the evidence and coming to a fair verdict of innocence or should the evidence (and only the evidence) provide beyond a reasonable doubt proof that the person accused did commit the crime they are accused of, then a swift, humane and imminent execution of the sentence. The appeals process is important too so I'd say 4 - 6 months for their appeals to be processed, should they not be found innocent on appeal, well you have a good picture there. 
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Coronach on April 19, 2013, 02:42:11 pm
My guess, is either a strong request, or an illegal order...  but would you really want to refuse?  Not me.  Those boys (BPD) are not going to be in the mood to play games.



Kaso
AFAIK, it would be a strong request, though there may be a statute allowing a ban on vehicular traffic (usually those are weather related, but it depends on how the statute is written). Police obviously have the authority to regular vehicular and pedestrian in a given area, but usually that is limited to distinct area (active crime scenes), not a whole town.

Now, when you get down to it, you probably WANT to cooperate, simply because you want this guy caught or killed. The best way to do this is to let the police do their thing. We're on the same team.

The idea of 4th Amendment violations is, AFAIK, at this point, purely speculative. I've done door to door searches before (though not like this), and you end up with one of the following at any given house:

1. No one answers, no signs of forced entry. You check the outside of the house for the BG or signs of activity, move on.

2. No one answers, signs of forced entry or a door open. You go in and clear the house. Why? Because you are looking for a dangerous person, they could have a hostage inside.

3. Someone home, they answer the door. You talk to them. If you find it plausible that they could be harboring the BG, you request permission to come in and look. If they refuse, you have to decide if you have PC to get a warrant, or the exigent circumstances to bypass one.

Mike

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: TommyGunn on April 19, 2013, 02:51:35 pm
That's why I asked what happens to the poor schlub that tries to exercise his 4th Amendment rights and says, "no sir, you cannot search my house."  Technically, legally, the police would have to say thank you, have a nice day, and be on their way - but I somehow doubt that will be the case - unfortunately.

Bill


Remember the Constitution only prohibits "unreasonable" searches & seizures.  During an event such as this, where two terrorist bombers are on the loose, searching and seizing in neighborhood homes when it's believed he may be hiding out in a neighborhood is very likely to be considered "reasonable." 
I would be interested in how the police are actually conducting this search....rather than simply worrying over supposed usurpations of 4th amendment rights......but that.s just me ....  (I guess).
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 19, 2013, 02:52:12 pm
Now, when you get down to it, you probably WANT to cooperate, simply because you want this guy caught or killed. The best way to do this is to let the police do their thing. We're on the same team.

Sure. I'd have no desire to make these guys' job any harder than it already is at a time like this. If they came to my door, I'd be more likely to offer them a cool glass of ice tea or hot cup of coffee than to make a fuss with them. But I'd also like to know I won't be arrested for trying to go check on my mother or girlfriend, or going out to get diapers for the baby, etc (not that many stores are likely to be open).
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Panhead Bill on April 19, 2013, 03:01:51 pm
Remember the Constitution only prohibits "unreasonable" searches & seizures.  During an event such as this, where two terrorist bombers are on the loose, searching and seizing in neighborhood homes when it's believed he may be hiding out in a neighborhood is very likely to be considered "reasonable." 
I would be interested in how the police are actually conducting this search....rather than simply worrying over supposed usurpations of 4th amendment rights......but that.s just me ....  (I guess).

Eh - based on case history, I don't think a door-to-door forced search would be found reasonable. Now, if there was reason to believe the bad guy was in the neighborhood - maybe, reason to think they were in that house - definitely. But just searching every house?  I doubt it.

Somehow I lost my last post saying that in all honesty, in the interest of "playing nice" I'd most likely invite them in and show them around. (Assuming they're not a-holes about it).

Bill
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 19, 2013, 03:12:02 pm
(Assuming they're not a-holes about it).

Mutual respect in this regard is pretty important to me. There's a big difference (for me) in "Open up on the name of the law!" And "Sorry to bother you sir, I'm sure you're as rattled as we are by all this. We just wanted to pop in and make sure everybody is okay here."
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Sarge on April 19, 2013, 03:16:11 pm
More than likely their looking for furtive behavior from the person that opens the door. Clearing a whole neighborhood is time consuming so if the homeowner answers the door with good attitude and says its all clear and check if you want, Most will probably move on to the next spot.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Matthew Mayner on April 19, 2013, 03:27:15 pm
No argument there.
But it should be done dispassionately, coldly, with an impartial jury and judge weighing the evidence and coming to a fair verdict of innocence or should the evidence (and only the evidence) provide beyond a reasonable doubt proof that the person accused did commit the crime they are accused of, then a swift, humane and imminent execution of the sentence. The appeals process is important too so I'd say 4 - 6 months for their appeals to be processed, should they not be found innocent on appeal, well you have a good picture there. 

I totally agree with you there.  Unfortunately our justice system is so broken.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Feud on April 19, 2013, 03:36:14 pm
Person I've just heard from said that the police first surrounded the house, then some came to the door and asked to search.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Panhead Bill on April 19, 2013, 03:42:27 pm
Person I've just heard from said that the police first surrounded the house, then some came to the door and asked to search.

Wow - that's gonna take a lot of time and manpower.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Sarge on April 19, 2013, 03:44:59 pm
Gotta give mad props for thoroughness. :o
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Nick Cage on April 19, 2013, 03:51:05 pm
My definition of "reasonable" is unless you see someone run in my house shooting wildly or throwing bombs or some such. You can bring your happy ass back with a warrant.
 :cool


I totally agree with you there.  Unfortunately our justice system is so broken.

Most of our entire system of government is so, so broken.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 19, 2013, 04:17:35 pm
My definition of "reasonable" is unless you see someone run in my house shooting wildly or throwing bombs or some such. You can bring your happy ass back with a warrant.

While I generally agree with this, I also reserve the right to be in a good mood and to cooperate because I choose to.  It's my house, and I can choose invite in whomever I like, even police...And not because "I support the trampling of rights in the name of national security", but simply because I was in a good mood and was feeling hospitable.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Nick Cage on April 19, 2013, 04:39:48 pm
While I generally agree with this, I also reserve the right to be in a good mood and to cooperate because I choose to.  It's my house, and I can choose invite in whomever I like, even police...And not because "I support the trampling of rights in the name of national security", but simply because I was in a good mood and was feeling hospitable.

I agree totally, your property your prerogative.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Panhead Bill on April 19, 2013, 04:57:08 pm
My definition of "reasonable" is unless you see someone run in my house shooting wildly or throwing bombs or some such. You can bring your happy ass back with a warrant.
 :cool

Problem is that 200 years of lawyers (damn them!) has redefined "reasonable" into some 10-page stupid definition that has no relation to reality.

Bill (the damn lawyer)
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Panhead Bill on April 19, 2013, 05:02:24 pm
My definition of "reasonable" is unless you see someone run in my house shooting wildly or throwing bombs or some such. You can bring your happy ass back with a warrant.


Problem is that 200 years of lawyers (damn them!) has redefined "reasonable" into some 10-page stupid definition that has no relation to reality.

Bill (the damn lawyer)
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Nick Cage on April 19, 2013, 05:19:05 pm
I'm not really concerned what what lawyers (*hawk spit*) have written or defined.
Rights in the constitution come from a higher authority than them. Popo can come back with a warrant unless there's a gun fight runnin, I don't care if they are looking for Osama Bin Ladin. Not that I have any fantasies about how that would go down, but I have my principals and I'll stick to them.  :neener
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Coronach on April 19, 2013, 06:09:34 pm
Yeah, you're entitled to your own opinions. The problem you're going to run into is that your opinions are inadmissable in a court of law. 200 years of lawyers and case law, however, are.

You do the math about how well this will work out for you.

Mike
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 19, 2013, 06:20:40 pm
But if you do try it, get someone else to hold the videocamera, so it doesn't get broken...
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Panhead Bill on April 19, 2013, 06:41:44 pm
I'm not really concerned what what lawyers (*hawk spit*) have written or defined.
Rights in the constitution come from a higher authority than them. Popo can come back with a warrant unless there's a gun fight runnin, I don't care if they are looking for Osama Bin Ladin. Not that I have any fantasies about how that would go down, but I have my principals and I'll stick to them.  :neener

I'm not trying to get into a spitting match with you, DR, but....

I guess I did mis-speak a little - I blame the lawyers, but ultimately the Supreme Court has interpreted what phrases in the Constitution mean. It doesn't really matter what you think is reasonable, but what the law (as jacked up as it may be) has come to determine what reasonable means.

Standing on principal is all well and good, but you've gotta choose your battles. Having a battle to the death over allowing a cop enter your home doesn't get you anything but dead. Telling them clearly that they don't have your permission to enter, but not forcefully resisting when the insist will allow you to fight another day in court (and not from jail) and then fight the illegal entry as a means to try and change the jacked up interpretation of "reasonable." 

I'm not saying that you'd have a fight to the death to keep the police out - but if that's your position ... Well, good luck with that.

Bill

Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 19, 2013, 07:05:13 pm
I feel like we have the unlawful entry conversation about once a quarter or so.  Granted, this time there was a rather unprecedented situation that quite legitimately raised the question.  But still........


Where do you guys think the dude is hiding?  Still in Boston, escaped the city, or maybe he already holed up in a dark corner somewhere and blew his brains out?
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: mephisto on April 19, 2013, 07:22:42 pm
Why would you not let them in, given the circumstance?
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 19, 2013, 07:25:58 pm
Why would you not let them in, given the circumstance?

If it were me, probably my "stockpile" of evil black sporting rifles and ammunition retention accessories that would be illegal if I lived in Boston.

For somebody else, their stash of pot. There are lots of reasons an otherwise law abiding citizen might not want popos poking around.

There's also principle, but as discussed before, the careful selection of your battles might be wise.

Actually, I'd probably let them in, and express my appreciation for the tough day of work they're doing.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 19, 2013, 08:19:56 pm
So they found him, and have spent the last half hour trying to flash bang him to death.  I assume you all know this by now. 
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Lupinus on April 19, 2013, 08:44:32 pm
Suspect is now in custody and on his way to the hospital.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 19, 2013, 08:44:40 pm
Hats off to all the LEOs in Boston tonight.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 19, 2013, 09:09:40 pm
BPD won't have to buy drinks for a while, methinks...
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Kaso on April 19, 2013, 09:11:26 pm
Idiot should NOT have let himself be taken alive...  :facepalm



Kaso
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 19, 2013, 09:19:54 pm
Why not?

(You're gonna kvetch about the judicial costs, aren't you?)
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Panhead Bill on April 19, 2013, 09:45:31 pm
Why would you not let them in, given the circumstance?

Oh - I'd most likely let them in under these circumstances - provided its my choice.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: seanp on April 19, 2013, 10:00:48 pm
Oh yeah.  Their Auntie who is a lawyer in Toronto is already making big noises in the media about disbelieving the authorities, demanding proof, etc...  I'm guessing she thinks she can make her career on this.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 19, 2013, 10:05:45 pm
She oughta listen to their Uncle...  :coffee
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: seanp on April 19, 2013, 10:08:32 pm
My guess is they don't see eye to eye on the subject, and have a different stake in the outcome.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Lupinus on April 19, 2013, 10:26:14 pm
Why not?

(You're gonna kvetch about the judicial costs, aren't you?)
Might not have to worry about that, didn't take long  :facepalm

Lindsey Graham: Obama Should Hold Bombing Suspect as ‘Enemy Combatant’ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/04/19/lindsey-graham-obama-should-hold-bombing-suspect-as-enemy-combatant/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=story&utm_campaign=Share+Buttons)
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: strangelittleman on April 19, 2013, 10:32:04 pm
Yes and Barry should revoke his citizenship.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Nick Cage on April 19, 2013, 10:33:25 pm
Well I didn't expect them to take him alive no matter what.
I'm impressed.  :thumbup1

And in real life non chest internet thumping circumstances, I wouldn't get into a shootout with them over illegally searching my house, I'd protest and lock the door on their ass.
And as non-violently as possible make it as hard to search the premiss as possible as a means of civil disobedience. Then I'd sue the shiznit out of them. Because that is a out right violation of the constitution I don't care what the corrupt, political, decrepit court has to say about it.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: strangelittleman on April 19, 2013, 10:43:13 pm
 From the perspective of one who's done quite a few fugitive manhunts, consider this:
 If you've nothing to hide, why not let them do a security sweep of your house and curtilage in order to (A) give you peace of mind that no boogie men are on your property and (B) so they can move on efficiently and constantly expand their perimeter in order to contain him inside and restrict his movements?

PS: It was just this kind of cooperation that led the lady to notice and report to said authorities, that something was different from when they performed a security sweep of her property, thus leading to his capture. By the way, he was captured within their perimeter, nearly text-book.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Kaso on April 19, 2013, 11:18:19 pm
Oh - I'd most likely let them in under these circumstances - provided its my choice.
Exactly.  I am the police's friend, as long as they are my friends.



Kaso
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Kaso on April 19, 2013, 11:20:12 pm
Might not have to worry about that, didn't take long  :facepalm

Lindsey Graham: Obama Should Hold Bombing Suspect as ‘Enemy Combatant’ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/04/19/lindsey-graham-obama-should-hold-bombing-suspect-as-enemy-combatant/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=story&utm_campaign=Share+Buttons)
What horsecrap.  He is a naturalized citizen - same rights apply.



Kaso
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Kaso on April 19, 2013, 11:23:42 pm
Why not?

(You're gonna kvetch about the judicial costs, aren't you?)
You'd like me to, wouldn't you?  :eh

No, actually, because life in federal prison - if he makes it there - is no way to live. (or die)



Kaso
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Langenator on April 19, 2013, 11:39:37 pm
From what I understand, homeboy was actually found outside the perimeter the police had established to be searched.  The police were just about to pull back to try to figure things out, when Joe Homeowner came to them and reported blood on his shed and boat tarp, which led the cops to the suspect.

So, for all the SWAT guys rolling around with their armored trucks in their black ninja suits, it was an alert citizen who ultimately made the key find.

If it hadn't been for the Alert Citizen, I wonder how long the police would have tried to keep things locked down?
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 20, 2013, 12:44:05 am
You'd like me to, wouldn't you?  :eh

No, actually, because life in federal prison - if he makes it there - is no way to live. (or die)

He and his brother killed what, four innocents (the three in the bombing, and the MIT cop)?

As I related in my death penalty thread... if he shows no interest in reform, I have no interest in seeing him live. And certainly not enjoy it.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: strangelittleman on April 20, 2013, 12:56:07 am
From what I understand, homeboy was actually found outside the perimeter the police had established to be searched.  The police were just about to pull back to try to figure things out, when Joe Homeowner came to them and reported blood on his shed and boat tarp, which led the cops to the suspect.

So, for all the SWAT guys rolling around with their armored trucks in their black ninja suits, it was an alert citizen who ultimately made the key find.

If it hadn't been for the Alert Citizen, I wonder how long the police would have tried to keep things locked down?
No, you're wrong, check the facts. The woman who alerted the police noticed the condition of the boat et al, was not the same as after the police had searched it. Cut the s___, he may be your homeboy, but not anybody in the rest of the country's.
Stop all the internet anti-establishment toughguy BS.  Try serving your community and country before talking s___ about those who do. Have you ever even darkened the doorway of a recruiting office?
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: ksuguy on April 20, 2013, 01:01:43 am
If it were me, probably my "stockpile" of evil black sporting rifles and ammunition retention accessories that would be illegal if I lived in Boston.

For somebody else, their stash of pot. There are lots of reasons an otherwise law abiding citizen might not want popos poking around.

Even if there wasn't anything illegal, it could be a problem.   There are many of us that have enough (legal) guns and ammo to sufficiently freak out the uninformed.   You have to remember,  a handful of firearms and a few hundred rounds of ammo constitute a "huge arsenal" to these people.   For me,  that's not even a good trip to the range.    In a scenario like this, I could easily see an innocent person getting paraded around as a potential terrorist while the cops stood around for photos with the scary looking gun collection.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Nick Cage on April 20, 2013, 01:52:36 am
A quote that pertains to the earlier discussion:
Quote
But police said at a press conference after the standoff ended that Tsarnaev had escaped their manhunt and hid himself in the boat just one block outside of the perimeter they were searching.
Says they caught him outside the perimeter  :shrug

Try serving your community and country before talking s___ about those who do. Have you ever even darkened the doorway of a recruiting office?

Not sure how that lends any assistance or detraction to someone's thought process about the current subject, doubly so discussing freedom and liberty vs oppression and official over reach, those who HAVEN'T served may have the more correct and pro-freedom perspective as they have not been the one desiring a more expedient way of doing things that might infringe upon the constitutional rights of those involved.

Speaking of expedience trouncing the living daylights out of constitutional rights I present to you the raping of the 5th amendment:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/boston-bomb-suspect-captured-alive-backyard-boat/story?id=18994511&#.UXIsMMp49ku (http://abcnews.go.com/US/boston-bomb-suspect-captured-alive-backyard-boat/story?id=18994511&#.UXIsMMp49ku)

Quote
A senior Justice Department official told ABC News that federal law enforcement officials are invoking the public safety exception to the Miranda rights, so that Tsarnaev will be questioned immediately without having Miranda rights issued to him.
Cause you know, the constitution is only for when life is rosy, there is no threat and all is well. Certainly wouldn't want to let that whole issue of freedom get in the way when someone might get hurt.   :shrug

Or maybe I'm just a crazy radical.  :shrug

Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 20, 2013, 02:05:40 am
Not being read Miranda rights doesn't mean your rights have been violated, it just means they may not be able to use any statements you made against you in court. Your rights would only be violated if you made statements without a Miranda warning AND they use those statements as evidence. They probably figure they can get a conviction without his statements (there's likely a mountain of physical evidence against him), and they need intel on other conspirators, so they don't want to warn him that he can shut up and not talk. Provided his statements arent used against him by the prosecution, I have no issue with this.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 20, 2013, 02:22:17 am
No, you're wrong, check the facts. The woman who alerted the police noticed the condition of the boat et al, was not the same as after the police had searched it. Cut the s___, he may be your homeboy, but not anybody in the rest of the country's.
Stop all the internet anti-establishment toughguy BS.  Try serving your community and country before talking s___ about those who do. Have you ever even darkened the doorway of a recruiting office?

Not sure where you're getting that info, I'm pretty sure I saw the police commissioner on CNN commenting on how they found him two blocks outside their perimeter. Also I don't really get the offense that you're taking, I didn't read anything disrespectful in Langenator's comment.  I read it simply as him observing irony in the situation. But maybe I missed something.

Also, I don't think many of us here are that determined to make life difficult for police officers hunting for a fugitive terrorist who may be hiding out in our neighborhood. I just think the situation makes us a little uneasy, because the standard of "when the event is serious enough to get over it and cooperate" is somewhat of an arbitrary threshold.   Obviously the public needs to help find a terrorist, but what is the threshold for granting the police warrant-less entry just so we can be "team players".  Any murder? Any time a cop is killed? Any time there's a bomb?  I'm happy to be a team player, but what am I really signing up for on the long haul? Without those questions answered, I tend to default on the side of skeptical and suspicious.   

As I said earlier, in this instance I would comply. But I'd feel better about it if I knew we were engaging in the broader conversation and not just defaulting to "if you don't feel good about cooperating, you're automatically a bastard".
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Coronach on April 20, 2013, 02:27:01 am
Yep. I love it when suspects smugly tell me that I didn't read them Miranda, so they're gonna walk. Usually, if I look confused and ask what they're talking about, they'll recite the warning to me.

"Oh, so you obviously know what your rights are. Thank you for demonstrating that, on the odd chance that it comes up later. Now, have I asked you any questions?"

"Yeah, man. You did."

"I mean, about the crime. Not the stuff to fill out the arrest form. Did I ask you what you did to get arrested?"

"No."

"Right. So, it doesn't matter. You're not gonna walk, genius."

" ... oh."

"Failure" to Miranda can make statements (and facts gleaned from them) inadmissable at trial, but it cannot invalidate an arrest. As a routine matter, we don't Miranda anyone we arrest for a felony, since they will be interviewed by detectives. We let the suits do that. And as to the "public safety exception", look up New York v Quarles. It's not like they're just winging it, here.

Mike
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Panhead Bill on April 20, 2013, 02:34:59 am

Also, I don't think many of us here are that determined to make life difficult for police officers hunting for a fugitive terrorist who may be hiding out in our neighborhood. I just think the situation makes us a little uneasy, because the standard of "when the event is serious enough to get over it and cooperate" is somewhat of an arbitrary threshold.   Obviously the public needs to help find a terrorist, but what is the threshold for granting the police warrant-less entry just so we can be "team players".  Any murder? Any time a cop is killed? Any time there's a bomb?  I'm happy to be a team player, but what am I really signing up for on the long haul? Without those questions answered, I tend to default on the side of skeptical and suspicious.   

As I said earlier, in this instance I would comply. But I'd feel better about it if I knew we were engaging in the broader conversation and not just defaulting to "if you don't feel good about cooperating, you're automatically a bastard".

Umm, you nailed it. Couldn't add a thing to that statement.  :thumbup1



Well I didn't expect them to take him alive no matter what.
I'm impressed.  :thumbup1

Yeah - that surprised me too - but, I'm glad they did - showed some restraint and discipline (I mean, who didn't want to blow his head off?!). But it does sound like the guy was pretty jacked up, and couldn't have fought back if he wanted to.

And in real life non chest internet thumping circumstances, I wouldn't get into a shootout with them over illegally searching my house, I'd protest and lock the door on their ass.
And as non-violently as possible make it as hard to search the premiss as possible as a means of civil disobedience. Then I'd sue the shiznit out of them. Because that is a out right violation of the constitution I don't care what the corrupt, political, decrepit court has to say about it.

Dude - DR - that's what I said. We're on the same page - let them in although its clearly - but respectfully impressed that you're not giving them permission. Then sue them - - in court (the corrupt, political, decrepit one). .:-))

On the Miranda issues - I think Lonestar and Coronach pretty much covered it.

Bill
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: seanp on April 20, 2013, 07:55:00 am
Yep. I love it when suspects smugly tell me that I didn't read them Miranda, so they're gonna walk...

What's really funny is that American movies and TV are so ubiquitous in the english speaking world that many Canadians think they have the same rights.  Many of the rights are similar, but not the same, and the warning is different.  It is always vastly amusing to watch the police arrest a drunk dude who "knows his rights".
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: seanp on April 20, 2013, 08:21:10 am
Try serving your community and country before talking s___ about those who do. Have you ever even darkened the doorway of a recruiting office?

Out of curiosity, please define "serving your community and country" and why you would need to darken the doorway of a recruiting office to do so.

I mean, at the local coffee shop, we have a cashier that serves the community daily, and at least half the community stops in there at least once a day.  She knows me by name, and I know hers.  Is that "serving your community"?  I think it is.

I don't know the name of a single LEO in this town.  Granted, we've only lived here for a year, and I haven't done anything to get arrested for yet.  But the point is that I have gotten more "service" from the coffee girl than I will from the RCMP in a life time.  But still, both of them get paid.  Being an LEO is not some high minded and altruistic calling.

Given all of that, what makes you feel that the opinion of an LEO is - not on grounds of education or knowledge - somehow more morally fit than that of a coffee shop clerk?
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Langenator on April 20, 2013, 09:27:10 am
No, you're wrong, check the facts. The woman who alerted the police noticed the condition of the boat et al, was not the same as after the police had searched it. Cut the s___, he may be your homeboy, but not anybody in the rest of the country's.
Stop all the internet anti-establishment toughguy BS.  Try serving your community and country before talking s___ about those who do. Have you ever even darkened the doorway of a recruiting office?
Since I've been in the Army since June of 1996, I'll accept your apology now.  Or do you want to see my ID card?

Edit:  I'll add some more here, having now read everything that came after the above quoted statement.

As many other have said, my concern (one of them) is for the whole idea of house-to-house searches without warrants, just based on the idea that the guy is somewhere in the area.  To my mind, "probable cause" or "reasonable" means you've got a blood trail, foot prints, etc, leading to my house, or he was seen entering.

And the other concern - placing thousands of people under effective house arrest, based on the fact that you've got one armed and dangerous individual on the loose.  I understand the intent - to make the operating space less complicated for the cops, try to reduce the suspect's ability to move, or make him more visible when he does. 
To my mind, there's a huge difference between requesting that people remain in their homes, for their own safety and to assist police, and ordering it and, as I stated, placing thousands of people under effective house arrest for an indeterminate period of time.

Oh, and if the guy had managed to get into a place that the cops had already searched, doesn't that make them actually looked worse?  It means he had somehow evaded them, and had reached a place that, having already searched it and found it clear, the police wouldn't be likely to search again.  Absent the tip from the aforementioned Alert Citizen.

And for future reference, I generally use the term 'homeboy' sarcastically.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: strangelittleman on April 20, 2013, 10:40:39 am
SeanP, By serving one's community and country I mean putting themselves in harm's way...and yes being an LEO is altruistic, in the same sense as that of a serving military member in that they volunteer to protect the citizenry, whereas the coffee clerk does none of that.

As for the terrorist being outside the perimeter, a clearer pic will come out in the days to follow. at about 2030-2100hrs last night, Fox (Shep Smith) were purportedly on the phone w/ the owners of the property where he was holed up and a lady on the phone said that the Police had already swept through and some time after was when it was noticed there was blood on the boat and a strap was cut....who knows? I'm pretty sure thess events will get armchaired to death over the next few days (weeks).

Langenator, I am sorry that I was a bit harsh with you and I appreciate your service in the Army and I truly do thank you for placing yourself between us and those who would do us harm.
However, it wouldn't matter if you were the Chief of Staff, neither you, I, nor anyone else here should be making BS comments about the organizations who have lost men, or had them wounded trying to safeguard the public, while we're safely ensconced in our comfortable homes hundreds or thousands of miles away.
It's the same stance I take for those who put themselves in harm's way regardless of whether they're Military, Fire, Police etc.

To all I have pissed off in the past few hours,( Lang, LSN, and all others) I apologize. I have been in a particularly foul mood as we/I have lost a dear family member (My beloved Mother-in law) and am utterly exhausted with helping my wife and her family make arrangements. I do not offer this up as an excuse, I'm just giving an honest explanation for my being such an ass over the last few hours. ( the rest of the time that I am generally an ass is all on me! ;) )
I should know better than to post on such an emotional topic, while in such a foul state of mind.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 20, 2013, 10:54:50 am
To all I have pissed off in the past few hours,( Lang, LSN, and all others) I apologize. I have been in a particularly foul mood as I have lost a dear family member (My beloved Mother-in law) and am utterly exhausted with helping my wife and her family make arrangements. I do not off this up as an excuse, I'm just giving an honest explanation for my being such an ass over the last few hours. ( the rest of the time that I am generally an ass is all on me! ;) )
I should know better than to post on such an emotional topic, while in such a foul state of mind.

 ;) We've all done it.  This is a community, and we have relationships.  It may be online, but from time to time things go just like real-world community and real-world relationships- they get a little rough.  These are senstive topics we discuss around here some times, and frankly, I'm not worried about it. 

Mostly I'm just grateful for the degree of intellectual discourse we have around here and the freedom we have to probe sensitive topics, and to disagree about them.  That's how we all learn.  And like I said earlier, the illegal entry thing comes up rather more frequently than is probably truly necessary, and is ALWAYS a sensitive topic.  So my apologies to those who get a little miffed by it, and my thanks to those of you who put up with what I see as an important intellectual discussion, even if it sometimes wanders into slightly inappropriate venues.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Kaso on April 20, 2013, 10:59:55 am
I'm sure we are all sorry for your (wife's) loss. 

Yes, you were a bit volatile yesterday, but we all get that way occasionally.  Most of us have, here, on WTA.

In the interest of helping this thread avoid a premature death, I say we just move on and forget about this one.


Also... SLM, if you hung out here more often, you might have known the Lang. was Army... ;)



Kaso
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: strangelittleman on April 20, 2013, 11:15:08 am
I was wrong.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 20, 2013, 11:21:26 am
I gotta say, it has been one hell of a news week.  Bombing, Whodunnit, Gun-Control Bill, Suspects, Found the guy killing DA's, Plant explosion, murder of police officer, car chase/shootout, biggest/most intense manhunt in the history of the country, gunfight/flashbangs, arrest...and all more or less on live tv.   And we thought the OJ chase on live t.v. was a big deal...

 I'm generally a news junky, but I especially couldn't break away from it this week.  I'm fluffing exhausted.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: strangelittleman on April 20, 2013, 11:34:33 am
I can't help but wonder what amount of intel they'll be able to glean from the terrorist? Lots of unanswered questions about other cells, missions, leadership, organizational structure (if any), etc.......

As for the why.......Here's a good acronym for why a person will turn against/betray or "go over to the other side".
M.I.C.E.

M- Money
I- Ideology
C- Compromised
E- Ego

If you look back at all the cases of betrayal, espionage ( Aldrich Ames, Hansen, The Wilsons, etc) or in this case these two brothers who turned against the very country that adopted them, an you'll be able to find one or more ( any combo) of the letters in the above acronym. 
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 20, 2013, 11:43:49 am
I can't help but wonder what amount of intel they'll be able to glean from the terrorist? Lots of unanswered questions about other cells, missions, leadership, organizational structure (if any), etc.......

IF there's any intel to be had, I bet the kid will talk.  My (uninformed) suspicion is that this kid isn't a true believer, he's a little brother who got dragged into something by his big brother (not that that excuses a damned thing).  Big brother went to Russia, big brother went down guns blazing with some sort of explosives on his person, while little brother seems to have fought tooth and nail to escape, evade, and survive, and then when the gig was up, he gave up.  I'm guessing he doesn't have much fight left in him.

But there's also a chance these two were lone wolf and learned to build bombs on UTubez, and there's no intelligence to be had beyond that.  I'm actually leaning that way right now...  At least, I want it to be that way....
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 20, 2013, 11:48:07 am
Actually, I don't know which way is better.  Lone wolf means we got them and the imminent threat is done.  But lone wolf also opens a bigger pandoras box-  a non-tangible enemy who could pop up at any time, as opposed to a known organization to fight.  Lone wolf also means this type of attack requires less training and less resources and is more reproduce-able than something that requires a terrorist to go to Russia or Afghanistan to learn.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: sarge712 on April 20, 2013, 12:35:38 pm
While I believe they were lone wolves, I also believe strongly that there are other cells waiting to activate but its anyone's guess as to why they haven't.

Imagine if these guys had been Russian or Iranian spec ops or trained by such. Sure they aren't the same league as US spec ops but they would have been a darn sight harder to pin down than the Tsarnaev brothers. I'm not so sure that local LEO's and the feds did such a good job as much as it was the Tsarnaev's were bumbling idiots in over their heads.

Who would have though the bombers would still be in the area with no pre-staged resources or escape routes? Robbing a store and stealing a car? Why weren't cash and cars prepped ahead of time? No safehouse or escape plane? All that considered together screams unprofessional and untrained. Had they been the afore-mentioned spec ops teams, there would have been squads of dead LEO's. One spec ops guy would be bad enough but a team would be hell. Overall, in the big scheme of things and considering what it could have been, this was a pissant attack to quote Lt. Col. Grossman as he explained it early this past week.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 20, 2013, 01:53:40 pm
I agree on the lone wolf assessment.

While they may have had some cause/ideology in mind (the Chechnya/Muslim connection), I doubt there's someone pulling their strings past some radical cleric yelling "Death to the heathens"... Though there have been some Chechen separatist plots that have struck at other international sports events... :scrutiny

Fluff it, we'll know when we know. :shrug
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Gunnguy on April 20, 2013, 01:54:58 pm
Imagine, if you will, a few "leaders" who recruit online 'participants' who ally themselves with radicalism.
A few at a time or a whole coordinated set of attacks, is does not matter.
Chaos would ensue. Did ensue.
Our LEO's are totally unprepared for a series of attacks let alone one single, minor (in lieu of past attacks around the world) incident.
It will be John and Jill Q. Public that will be the major factor against future attacks and the biggest help in finding those responsible in successful attempts.
Our founder's were wise beyond their years.
The solution is staring us in the face.
The Constitution spells it out.
Law abiding, Civilian Militias trained and equipped by the Government (Both state and federal) with ammunition and full auto capable, military grade weapons and equipment.
Keep them trained through quarterly or semi-annual programs to bring everyone up to speed and repair/test functionality of gear.
Also...
Eliminate a sheeple like mentality by positively reinforcing the populace to engage in their own Liberty, Freedom, Community (Love thy neighbor as thyself), and Government (Watching the watchers so to speak).
Encourage shooting sports, survival skills (hunting, fishing, camping, hiking), training in tactical defense both armed and unarmed combat skills.
This would go a long way to ferreting out enemies both foreign and domestic.



Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Chrissmitty820 on April 20, 2013, 03:24:25 pm
IF there's any intel to be had, I bet the kid will talk.  My (uninformed) suspicion is that this kid isn't a true believer, he's a little brother who got dragged into something by his big brother (not that that excuses a damned thing).  Big brother went to Russia, big brother went down guns blazing with some sort of explosives on his person, while little brother seems to have fought tooth and nail to escape, evade, and survive, and then when the gig was up, he gave up.  I'm guessing he doesn't have much fight left in him.

But there's also a chance these two were lone wolf and learned to build bombs on UTubez, and there's no intelligence to be had beyond that.  I'm actually leaning that way right now...  At least, I want it to be that way....

One thing that may back up your idea here, is if the kid brother killed anyone while escaping, specifically after the older one died. If not, I think that would go a long way towards "drug into it."

None of this excuses ANYTHING that had been done, but it would show that he had no stomach for the long game, and was less than a 'true believer' in whatever cause started this whole thing.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Langenator on April 20, 2013, 03:44:39 pm
I'm not so sure that local LEO's and the feds did such a good job as much as it was the Tsarnaev's were bumbling idiots in over their heads.

Who would have though the bombers would still be in the area with no pre-staged resources or escape routes? Robbing a store and stealing a car? Why weren't cash and cars prepped ahead of time? No safehouse or escape plane? All that considered together screams unprofessional and untrained.

I was telling the Mrs over dinner last night, from my foxhole it looks like they probably thought they could drop the bombs without getting ID'ed.  They were still local because they thought they'd gotten out clean.  All of the craziness Wednesday night seemed to start not too long after the FBI posted their pictures, which, by my guess, was followed by panic on their part.

The one interesting thing is that, unlike most of the previous self-actuated jihadists, these two didn't seem to be intent on dieing while carrying out their attack. 

I also think that, if he hadn't already been wounded before he was discovered, brother #2 would have continued to try to E&E.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: mephisto on April 20, 2013, 04:10:21 pm
Maybe they were "left out to dry".
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: seanp on April 20, 2013, 04:21:21 pm
I was telling the Mrs over dinner last night, from my foxhole it looks like they probably thought they could drop the bombs without getting ID'ed.  They were still local because they thought they'd gotten out clean.  All of the craziness Wednesday night seemed to start not too long after the FBI posted their pictures, which, by my guess, was followed by panic on their part.

That seems reasonable to me.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 20, 2013, 06:43:11 pm
when arrested, he had 6 bombs, a rifle, and a handgun on him.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 20, 2013, 07:07:30 pm
Maybe they were "left out to dry".

This also seems plausible (although unlikely). They're a disposable pawn (and don't know it). Someone gives them a bomb, promises them support, a safe-house, and extraction. They set off the bomb, then return to the safehouse to find out they've closed up shop and skipped town. Then they panic, and start doing stupid s___.

Although I read that little brother went to a party Wednesday night, which suggests he thought he got away clean. It also makes his motives that much more bizarre.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 20, 2013, 07:23:19 pm
Although I read that little brother went to a party Wednesday night, which suggests he thought he got away clean. It also makes his motives that much more bizarre.

Trying to act normal?  :shrug
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: strangelittleman on April 20, 2013, 07:43:13 pm
I'm of the mind that if everything had not gone sideways Thursday night, that they were going to hit again very soon. The whole carjacking mess was perhaps to get the car set up similar to the Times Square incident....They let the owner go, knowing he would dial 911.....odd.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Kaso on April 20, 2013, 08:00:04 pm
They let the owner go, knowing he would dial 911.....odd.
I can't see a reason other than sheer incompetency.




Kaso
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: THE NORSEMAN on April 20, 2013, 09:33:06 pm
It's been way too long of a week and I'm way too tired to try and make this post read like a term paper, so here goes the Norseman's quick and slightly fatigue muddled thought collage:

It seems the older brother spent several months in Russia we know nothing about yet.  Wonder what we'll learn?  He left behind a wife and child.  A wife that apparently converted to Islam strongly enough that she wears traditional Muslim clothing.  He also had an internet presence with several hard line Muslim videos.   
So, most likely radicalized by someone here in the US while doing that "what do I want out of life" thing most of us went though in out late teens/early twenties, with final training overseas?   And drug his younger brother along for the ride.

As far as police co-operation?   In this case, they would get it from me.  If my "arsenal" as it were causes friction?  Fine, waste time busting on me instead of looking for the real person of interest, and you WILL be hearing from an attorney when it's all said and done.  This is a whole different situation than Katrina, an earthquake, a tornado, etc.  With those situations, the danger is past, I made it through, I'm fine.  Leave me be.  I'm better off here than in a shelter anyway.

This bomber on the loose situation?  That's different.  There's still an active threat.  So, come on in, have a snack or beverage on me, and please go catch the bastard, eh?  If they get out of line during the search?  Fine, I'll retain a lawyer, and deal with it after the immediate situation is solved.

Think on it guys, we'd all have been watching the news, know he's unpredictable, know this clown can and will shoot, and he has explosives he's willing to use.  Ergo, I'm going NOWHERE unarmed(and by that, I mean my 5 shot snubby in CCW mode doesn't cut it right now), and the police will take a VERY DIM view of armed folks about.  SO- This situation is tailor made for testing out whether my 72 hour kit and other emergency supplies are up to snuff, the boss can't bust on me for not coming to work anyway, and as long as we stay put, I KNOW me and mine are safe.  I also know what I'll do should said miscreant evade the police and enter my home, because at that point neither of us would have anything left to lose.

If any of you haven't seen it- [ORIGINAL] 4/19/13 BOSTON BOMBERS SHOOTOUT IN WATERTOWN, MA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSlRHJv1nnA#)  Pretty intense gunfight.  Reports say that the round count during the exchange was 200 or better.  And I understand that in escaping that scene, the younger brother ran over the deceased one.  There has also been a photo leaked of the older one after his death, in which it appears that he was VERY messed up.  Pretty much shot to doll rags. 
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: sarge712 on April 21, 2013, 09:08:59 am
I'm of the mind that if everything had not gone sideways Thursday night, that they were going to hit again very soon. The whole carjacking mess was perhaps to get the car set up similar to the Times Square incident....They let the owner go, knowing he would dial 911.....odd.

Was the car owner muslim? Maybe that's why they released him. I think it was probably panic/spazzing in any event
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: sarge712 on April 21, 2013, 12:15:55 pm
I think Jim may be on it. It looks like the FBI is searching for other cell members who left the Tsarnaevs swinging in the wind:

http://www.mrconservative.com/2013/04/12643-fbi-hunting-12-additional-sleeper-cell-terrorists-connected-to-boston-bombers/ (http://www.mrconservative.com/2013/04/12643-fbi-hunting-12-additional-sleeper-cell-terrorists-connected-to-boston-bombers/)

I don't know how reliable this site is but I connected to it from fb
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: LoneStarNational on April 21, 2013, 01:04:52 pm
Here's the story straight from the daily mirror.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/boston-bombers-fbi-hunting-12-strong-1844844 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/boston-bombers-fbi-hunting-12-strong-1844844)
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: scarville on April 21, 2013, 04:03:23 pm
If the Mirror published it you might want to consider independent verification.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Feud on April 22, 2013, 10:35:25 am
Video from one of the searches.  I've seen some cite this as an example of an illegal search, but given the distance it seems like the home owner might have consented.  I can't listen too close right now, so I don't know if you can hear yea or nay on it, but I imagine not since it's across the street and behind a window. 

Police perform house-to-house raids in Watertown MA ripping innocent families from their homes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LrbsUVSVl8#)
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 22, 2013, 12:40:21 pm
Nice caption.  :coffee
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Harm on April 22, 2013, 01:06:56 pm
Yeah this video was used on FB as "proof" that the Police were imposing Martial Law on Watertown and all of Boston  ::) and doing illegal search & seizures.   :coffee
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Feud on April 22, 2013, 01:13:14 pm
I agree, the title is silly, and I don't think that it is the evidence they claim it is.  But, I do think it's interesting to see what was going on, at least at some places.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 22, 2013, 02:17:13 pm
If they come back later, and say "By the way, while we were here last time, we noticed you had this contraband laying about... please come with us," they may have a leg to stand on.

In the meantime, they had a job to do, and (considering there's one pic floating around of a cop bringing a family with young kids two gallons of milk) it sounds like they conducted the searches with at least some modicum of professionalism.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Thernlund on April 22, 2013, 04:49:19 pm
I am certainly of the opinion that what went on in Boston isn't the "martial law" idiocy everyone is screaming about.  As well, I'd need much context on the video above to take it as it's presented. 

That said, I'd have said No to a search.  My dogs would be flipping out, and I wouldn't want them to be shot accidentally or otherwise.  If what we see in that video is what happened after I said no, I'd have not reacted well to that.  At all.   :scrutiny

That's a lot of hyperbole though.  I don't know the context of that search.

...

I do note that one of the people exiting is shouted at on the walkway (1:31) to raise his hands (further, I guess).  No matter what the case, I wouldn't have reacted to that very well either.


-T.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 22, 2013, 04:55:52 pm
http://gma.yahoo.com/video-dzokhar-tsarnaevs-capture-released-124555983--abc-news-topstories.html (http://gma.yahoo.com/video-dzokhar-tsarnaevs-capture-released-124555983--abc-news-topstories.html)

Quote
As Dzokhar Tsarnaev recovers in the same Massachusetts hospital as some Boston Marathon bombing victims, authorities released a new aerial video showing how they were able to take the suspect into custody alive.

WATCH: Infrared Video Verified Boston Bombing Suspect's Hiding Spot

PHOTOS: Boston Bombing Suspect Manhunt

A bird's-eye view of the moments before Tsarnaev's capture gave authorities an idea of what to expect as they methodically closed in on the Boston Marathon bombings suspect, who was hunkered down in a boat in a Watertown, Mass., backyard.

Police believe Tsarnaev was initially wounded Thursday night in the gun battle that ended in his brother's death. Police said they found blood in a car he abandoned and blood at a house.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Avenger29 on April 23, 2013, 01:40:43 am
RE the video of the "innocent people being dragged from their home"

If the title was true, those people would be in restraints and being dragged off or guarded. Notice how they send the residents of the house down the sidewalk unrestrained and not being frog-marched by the cops? They are sending them back to get them away from the potential danger zone for a reason.






Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: seanp on April 23, 2013, 03:39:59 am
After thinking about the whole house searching thing for a bit now that spring has arrived and I've seen some of the neighbors yards...

I'd say no.

Cops don't take off their boots and I really don't want dog s___ on my cream colored carpets.  Or crushed leaves, or grass...

Nawp.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 23, 2013, 09:17:47 am
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/national/criminal-complaint-united-states-vs-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/412/ (http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/documents/national/criminal-complaint-united-states-vs-dzhokhar-tsarnaev/412/)

It appears he is being charged as a civilian.

Quote
The Justice Department, in a criminal complaint unsealed Monday, charged Dzhokhar Tsarnaev with using a "weapon of mass destruction" in the Boston Marathon bombings. It said he used his cellphone as he waited for the first blast, allegedly detonated by his older brother a block up the street, then "calmly but rapidly" walked away, leaving a backpack containing the second bomb on the ground near a metal barrier in front of the Forum Restaurant, where it exploded about 10 seconds later. According to the FBI, one of the brothers later told the driver of a vehicle they carjacked, “Did you hear about the Boston explosion? I did that."

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/04/23/178560685/early-thinking-boston-suspects-were-working-on-their-own (http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/04/23/178560685/early-thinking-boston-suspects-were-working-on-their-own)

Quote
As investigators learn more about the surviving suspect in the Boston Marathon bombings and what Dzhokhar Tsarnaev and his brother Tamerlan allegedly did, the initial theory is that "these two young men were working on their own," NPR's Dina Temple-Raston said Tuesday on Morning Edition.

Authorities continue to question 19-year-old Dzhokhar, who remains hospitalized in serious condition. He's being treated at a Boston hospital for a variety of injuries he sustained during gun battles with police on Friday. It's also possible he tried to kill himself before he was captured Friday evening in the Boston suburb of Watertown, Mass.

Tamerlan, 26, died of injuries he sustained early Friday.

Investigators say they are hearing from Dzhokhar through notes he's writing in response to questions. Other than one comment from the magistrate who presided at his hospital bed arraignment Monday, there's been no indication that Dzhokhar is able to speak more than a word or two at a time. The magistrate reported that Dzhokhar said "no" when asked if he could afford a lawyer.

According to law enforcement sources Dina has spoken with, the information they've gotten from Dzhokhar leads them to suspect — so far — that Tamerlan was the "driving force" behind the bombings at the marathon (which killed three people and wounded more than 200).
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: strangelittleman on April 23, 2013, 08:45:27 pm
After thinking about the whole house searching thing for a bit now that spring has arrived and I've seen some of the neighbors yards...

I'd say no.

Cops don't take off their boots and I really don't want dog s___ on my cream colored carpets.  Or crushed leaves, or grass...

Nawp.
Now that's funny! Getting red dog s___ out of light carpet is quite the chore!
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: goatroper on April 26, 2013, 12:32:38 pm
The Washington Compost is not where I'd normally look for objective reporting, but this is far enough outside the preferred narrative there may be something to it.  Very interesting if true.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/officials-boston-suspect-had-no-firearm-when-barrage-of-bullets-hit-hiding-place/2013/04/24/376fc8a0-ad18-11e2-a8b9-2a63d75b5459_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/officials-boston-suspect-had-no-firearm-when-barrage-of-bullets-hit-hiding-place/2013/04/24/376fc8a0-ad18-11e2-a8b9-2a63d75b5459_story.html)

Officials: Boston suspect had no firearm when barrage of bullets hit hiding place

By Sari Horwitz and Peter Finn

Although police feared he was heavily armed, the suspect in the Boston Marathon bombing had no firearms when he came under a barrage of police gunfire that struck the boat where he was hiding, according to multiple federal law enforcement officials.

Authorities said they were desperate to capture Dzhokhar Tsarnaev so he could be questioned. The FBI, however, declined to discuss what prompted the gunfire.



Other law enforcement officials said the shooting may have been prompted by the chaos of the moment and some action that led the officers to believe Tsarnaev had fired a weapon or was about to detonate explosives.

These new details emerged as investigators continued their examination of the movements and motives of Tsarnaev, 19, and his brother, Tamerlan, in last week’s coordinated bombing, which killed three people and wounded more than 250.

Law enforcement officials said they do not believe the brothers were connected with a terrorist organization, but they cautioned that the inquiry is at an early stage.

Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, was killed in a confrontation with police in the early morning hours Friday, four days after the marathon bombing. A transit police officer was seriously wounded in the exchange, in which more than 200 rounds were fired and the suspects lobbed homemade explosives at police. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev escaped and was the subject of a massive manhunt. He was cornered hiding in a boat in the driveway of a house in Watertown, Mass., on Friday evening.

Law enforcement officials described the 30 minutes before the arrest of Tsarnaev as chaotic. One characterized it as “the fog of war” and said that in a highly charged atmosphere, one accidental shot could have caused what police call “contagious fire.”

Officers from several agencies gathered around the Watertown house as darkness fell. The FBI was in charge of the scene, but there also were officers from the Massachusetts State Police, local police and transit police.

“They probably didn’t know whether he had a gun,” said one law enforcement official, who like others interviewed for this article spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss an ongoing investigation. “Hours earlier, he and his brother had killed a police officer, shot another officer and thrown explosives out of their cars as the police were chasing them. They couldn’t assume that he did not have a gun and more explosives.”

The FBI declined to discuss the exact sequence of events that led officers to open fire on Tsarnaev’s hiding place and whether the dozens of bullets that struck the boat caused any of his gunshot wounds.

A spokesman for the FBI said law enforcement agents were tracking an extremely dangerous suspect who had used guns and explosives on a public street to avoid arrest.

“Law enforcement was placed in an extraordinarily dangerous situation,” said FBI spokesman Paul Bresson. “They were dealing with an individual who is alleged to have been involved in the bombings at the Boston Marathon. As if that’s not enough, there were indications of a carjacking, gunfire, an ambushed police officer and bombs thrown earlier. In spite of these extraordinary factors, they were able to capture this individual alive with no further harm to law enforcement. It was a tremendously effective outcome under dire circumstances.”

Early Friday in Watertown, the brothers engaged in a firefight with police. Tamerlan Tsarnaev was shot and fell to the ground, according to police and photos, and Dzhokhar Tsarnaev climbed back in a Mercedes sport-utility vehicle carjacked earlier. He drove at police and struck his wounded brother on the street. Tamerlan Tsarnaev, who was dragged a distance by the car, was declared dead on arrival at a Boston hospital.

A criminal complaint filed in federal court in Massachusetts on Monday to support charges against Dzhokhar Tsarnaev said police recovered a single firearm and half a dozen explosives and homemade bombs from the scene of the shootout.

In the ensuing chaos, Tsarnaev accelerated away, abandoned the car and eventually made it on foot just beyond a cordon quickly set up by police. Around 6 p.m. Friday, Tsarnaev was detected hiding beneath a plastic cover on a boat by its owner, who called police. A thermal imaging unit in a police helicopter confirmed a presence in the boat.

“You can’t second-guess what they were doing on that scene,” said a second law enforcement official. “Their own lives were in danger.”

In the immediate aftermath of Tsarnaev’s capture, police officials said he had fired from the boat and he was reported to have been captured with several weapons. There were also reports that the gunshot wound he suffered to the throat might have been an attempt to kill himself as police moved in.

Tsarnaev continues to be treated at a Boston hospital, where his condition has been upgraded from critical to fair. He began communicating in writing and some speech with a special team of FBI interrogators Saturday night and was officially charged Monday.

On Wednesday, Vice President Biden eulogized Sean Collier, the slain Massachusetts Institute of Technology police officer, and denounced Tsarnaev and his dead brother as “two twisted, perverted, cowardly knockoff
jihadis.”

Thousands of MIT students and police officers from across the United States attended a memorial service on the grounds of the university to remember the 27-year-old police officer.
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: Langenator on April 26, 2013, 02:05:38 pm
Kind of an uncomfortable situation- on one hand, you've (probably) got a suspected cop-killer with an exhibited tendency to shoot first.

On the other, our troops in Afghanistan go after even nastier bad guys, who have better guns, bombs, and RPGs, with an ROE that requires them to at least actually see a weapon or confirmed threat before they shoot.  Otherwise they surround the target and call the people out. (And the BGs usually comply.  For jihadis, they have a decided preference for not dieing gloriously in battle against the infidel.)

So if Tsarnaev didn't shoot, why did the cops?
Title: Re: All Hell Breaking Loose in Boston
Post by: booksmart on April 26, 2013, 04:03:49 pm
They're not as disciplined and as rigorously trained as the troops? :shrug

( not denigrating the training they do go through, but is it as much of a tear down /rebuild as Army or Marine boot camp?)