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Author Topic: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*  (Read 15725 times)

Gundoc

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Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2008, 05:14:19 pm »
I think the biggest reason this would be the worst possible situation is because this wouldn't just be an assasination. This would be a marterdom. Minorities in general would rise up against anyone white. I think our cities would go into melt down mode. I think this would be a total break down.
I have to agree with many of you that I think Obama's politics are those of a dirtbag but I'd still better not catch anyone uttering a threat against him either.

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    Dwight55

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #26 on: November 10, 2008, 07:37:26 pm »
    As a junior in high school when Kennedy was elected, . . . I was about as mad as I could get that this country had elected a liberal, money backed, knotheaded junior senator that could not effectively command a lousy PT boat, . . . how the heck was he going to run our country.  Admittedly, most of my reasoning was gleaned from my elders whom I trusted.

    As a Seaman Recruit in Great Lakes, Ill., . . . we followed all day the events when he was asassinated, . . . and I cried.  I had come to see that as a Lt. JG, . . . he wasn't so hot, . . . but as a president, . . . he has always been one to inspire me.  That fat little jerkball that took the oath on Air Force 1 later that day was more than enough proof for me that asassination is never a good idea.  Count the 55K graves of VietNam KIA's, . . . and you'll see why I'm all for just letting old bammer-rammer do himself in. 

    He may do well with the speeches and his teleprompter, . . . but that's all just like being elected captain of the football team.  Wait till after the kickoff, . . . then we'll see what he's made of, . . . and I really think that much as I want to retch at even mentioning Jimmy Carter's name, . . . we may yearn for his days again. :banghead

    May God bless, Dwight

    Brian Dale

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #27 on: November 10, 2008, 10:08:55 pm »
    Quote from: Dwight55
    I had come to see that as a Lt. JG, . . . he wasn't so hot, . . . but as a president, . . . he has always been one to inspire me.

    You've just given me a new thought. Whatever the good Senator's intentions and planned policies, there's a nugget of wisdom that we can carry forward. There's no doubt that BHO (whom I nicknamed "the scrawny JFK" a year ago) is an extraordinary speaker. I might view Chicago-style politics with distaste, but the President-elect can give an inspiring speech.

    Like PvtPyle's Just Living My Life, we--individually--might discover that non-socialists (or anti-socialists?  ;) ) such as we are, can take that inspiration, use it, expand it and channel it in our own directions, regardless of the actions of government officials.

    {overstatement for emphasis:}

    We could colonize the Moon while the government's still untangling Fannie Mae.

    {/overstatement}

    It's just a thought. Thanks, Dwight55.
    « Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 10:48:49 pm by Brian Dale »
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    BigRich

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #28 on: November 10, 2008, 10:28:43 pm »
    Remember, one of the greatest things about America, is the peaceful transfer of power. 


    Absolutely. We do not live in some third world hell hole. This is a Representative Republic, based on the Rule of LAw.The after effects of such an action would be devestating, on all fronts. The Nation might never recover, or if it did, it would be a long time coming.

    Nolo

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #29 on: November 10, 2008, 11:20:32 pm »
    The effect of an assassination on ANY president is the opposite of the wishes of those doing the assassinating.
    People get scared, and when they get scared, they love to have someone come up and tell them that they will take care of it. Nothing scares people more than death, and if it can happen to a president, it brings it home that it can happen to you like nothing short of a death in the family can.
    Plenty of politicians feed off of that fear. Good or bad ('course we're worrying about the bad ones here), they love to get on people's good side by promising the warm fuzzies.
    ALL potentially revolutionary actions MUST BE THOUGHT THROUGH!!!
    Violence, as much as we may want to visit it and as justified as it may be, is 999/1000 times worse for our cause than than the other side.
    Of course, assassination is no exception. If it comes down to LITERALLY DEFENDING OURSELVES from men with guns pointed in our direction, that is a different story.
    I cannot stress it enough.

    On a side note, one thing I always wondered about in a mental exercise sort of way is if both/all major candidates in an presidential election got either killed or otherwise knocked out of commission. I don't entertain this because I want it to happen, I think about it because I don't know how it would affect an election like that. Things I don't understand attract my interest.
    Reviewing all of the above over again...
    Looks okay to me, send all concerns in PMs, not karma, please.
    Thanks for listening

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    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #30 on: November 11, 2008, 11:31:24 am »
    See, I can engage in such hypothesis regularly because I get paid to do it.

    'Course, my attack on the White House was actually a ploy to get to the underground train line that would transport the psychos to a top secret facility where a corrupt spy organization held onto samples of some of the worst WMD's on the planet.

    That should be coming in in a couple of months - Executioner: Patriot Acts
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    Old Grump

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #31 on: November 11, 2008, 01:13:10 pm »
    We survived the worst president we ever had, Wilson, still paying the price but we survived.  Carter was a little blip compared to him, survived Cinton and both Bushes, we will survive Obama.  If he tries to push his socialist agenda and anti-2nd agenda to far he will have to stomp on the constitution and that will be an impeachable offense. 

    Assassination would just turn him into a martyr like it did Kennedy and Lincoln.  I seriously don't think either would have earned such a high rank in the history books if they had been allowed to finish out their terms.  Last thing I want to see is Obama turned into a martyr.  I also don't think their would be nearly as much rioting over an assassination as there was after the Rodney King verdict.  These are different times and the police are better equipped to stop that kind of foolishness. 

    I was in boot camp with my arms out to receive my uniform dungaree work shirts when we got the word on Kennedy.  We marched back to our barracks and most of us were on our knees praying, (it was a different time, praying in public wasn't looked down upon as offensive), when we got the word that he was declared dead and Johnson was being sworn in.  We were afraid as recruits we might have to take to the streets to fight rioters but it never happened.  Obama might not know it but his biggest protection is the constitution, the rule of law and us armed citizens, the citizen militia.   
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    Brian Dale

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #32 on: November 11, 2008, 01:32:35 pm »
    Hear, hear, Old Grump.
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    Ishpeck

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #33 on: November 11, 2008, 03:58:08 pm »
    If he tries to push his socialist agenda and anti-2nd agenda to far he will have to stomp on the constitution and that will be an impeachable offense.

    Unfortunately, Congress has proven a total lack of interest in their Constitutional authority to impeach... because they have little interest in the Constitution in general. 

    If they start calling the POTUS on the carpet for COTUS violations, they open a huge can of worms for themselves.  I mean, if we're supposed to hold one man responsible for abuse of his public office of trust, why shouldn't we hold ALL of them responsible?

    Congress doesn't want to be held accountable.  As such, they'll avoid bringing up the Constitution subject all together.  "Just quietly ignore it and hope the problem goes away" -- that's their philosophy.
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    Splodge Of Doom

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #34 on: November 11, 2008, 04:48:33 pm »
    It occurs to me - and I shall note here that I am not an American and I have only a passing knowledge of the constitution etc. - if your government is corrupt (I may be confusing this with "tyrranical") don't you, as Americans, have a civic duty to depose them and replace them with a non corrupt government?

    I'm not suggesting you do or that you need to, but asking if that is the case?

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #35 on: November 11, 2008, 04:51:24 pm »
    Quote
    It occurs to me - and I shall note here that I am not an American and I have only a passing knowledge of the constitution etc. - if your government is corrupt (I may be confusing this with "tyrranical") don't you, as Americans, have a civic duty to depose them and replace them with a non corrupt government?

    I'm not suggesting you do or that you need to, but asking if that is the case?
    Yep, we do.
    Thing is, we also have a duty to do our best to see that it succeeds. To do that, you gotta win public favor.
    Thanks for listening

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    hayseed

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #36 on: November 11, 2008, 07:08:51 pm »
    It occurs to me - and I shall note here that I am not an American and I have only a passing knowledge of the constitution etc. - if your government is corrupt (I may be confusing this with "tyrranical") don't you, as Americans, have a civic duty to depose them and replace them with a non corrupt government?

    I'm not suggesting you do or that you need to, but asking if that is the case?

    Few, if any of us, have faced the fact that getting our rights back could entail the absolute extermination of evil men who infringed on those rights motivated by nothing more than their personal greed for wealth and power. Since these evil men will not surrender themselves to justice voluntarily, it will become necessary to use force to bring them to justice.

    The use of force entails violence. Violence implies killing.

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #37 on: November 11, 2008, 07:12:52 pm »
    Quote
    Few, if any of us, have faced the fact that getting our rights back entails the absolute extermination of evil men who infringed on those rights motivated by nothing more than their personal greed for wealth and power. Since these evil men will not surrender themselves to justice voluntarily, it will become necessary to use force to bring them to justice.

    The use of force entails violence. Violence implies killing.
    Perhaps. But the situation is much more delicate than that.
    Remember to keep in mind not those who have wronged you but setting those wrongs right.
    The only goal should be the reparation of our society and our nation, not the murder of evil men.
    Keeping that goal in mind, it is important to think about the consequences of any actions you consider.
    What is the primary consequence of murder, justified or not? People tend to go the opposite direction.
    Violence, at best, is useful only in a very controlled and limited capacity when the hearts and minds must be won.
    Thanks for listening

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    Brian Dale

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #38 on: November 11, 2008, 07:39:56 pm »
    We have many, many more opprtunities to use the soap box, renew our efforts at the ballot box and refine how we make use of the jury box before we ever need resort to the cartridge box. I don't want to see an American politician assassinated ever again in my lifetime.
    One great frailty of human nature, an inability or indisposition to compare a distant, though certain inconvenience or distress with a present convenience or delight is said...to be prevalent in Americans so as to make it one of their distinguishing charac

    hayseed

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #39 on: November 11, 2008, 08:18:40 pm »
    The only goal should be the reparation of our society and our nation, not the murder of evil men.

    But this is not a structural problem we have; this is a problem of personnel.

    We are in this mess because we have the wrong people as federal judges with lifetime tenure and "politicians for life" who are ruining the American system of government.
     

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #40 on: November 11, 2008, 09:22:40 pm »
    Funny.  I thought it was low Republican voter turn-out.

    Silly moi.
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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #41 on: November 11, 2008, 11:35:07 pm »
    Quote
    But this is not a structural problem we have; this is a problem of personnel.

    We are in this mess because we have the wrong people as federal judges with lifetime tenure and "politicians for life" who are ruining the American system of government.
    What do you think I was talking about? The Constitution isn't the best possible foundation of government, but it's close.
    My point is that, as justified as violence might be, it doesn't end up helping us.
    If I ask myself, would I rather fight with the ballot box or the cartridge box, I don't get a clear answer, much as I'd like to convince myself of the pacifist route.
    But if I consider effective strategies, I suddenly come out with the answer: violence should only be reserved for special situations, and it is not a viable strategy for our current situation.
    It's not viable not because it's bad or any impractical reason like that. It's bad because if we use it we will fail.
    End of story.
    Thanks for listening

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    Pat-inCO

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #42 on: November 12, 2008, 02:52:32 am »
    Quote from: HowardCohodas
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    You just HAD to go and say that, huh?

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    hayseed

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #43 on: November 12, 2008, 06:38:40 am »
    What do you think I was talking about? The Constitution isn't the best possible foundation of government, but it's close.
    My point is that, as justified as violence might be, it doesn't end up helping us.
    If I ask myself, would I rather fight with the ballot box or the cartridge box, I don't get a clear answer, much as I'd like to convince myself of the pacifist route.
    But if I consider effective strategies, I suddenly come out with the answer: violence should only be reserved for special situations, and it is not a viable strategy for our current situation.
    It's not viable not because it's bad or any impractical reason like that. It's bad because if we use it we will fail.
    End of story.

    We are shooting for an ideal here.

    It is convenient to hide behind a facade of toleration, appeasement and 'no war' and a very easy thing to run the risk of adopting "peaceful reconciliation of opposing forces" and "mutually beneficial" to the bitter end, to the last extremity, however calamitous.

    Those who propagate conciliation with the enemy should take heed from the lessons of history.

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #44 on: November 12, 2008, 12:36:18 pm »
    Quote
    Those who propagate conciliation with the enemy should take heed from the lessons of history.
    A.)  I am not propagating conciliation, I am propagating an intelligent solution to our current political, governmental and national situation. I am not a proponent of pacifism for pacifism's sake, anyone who knows me knows that (I am not implying that you should know me, this is the Internet, after all). Look, if we start just killing people, even specifically targeted ones, and blowing up buildings, etc., you know how much ammunition that gives the other side? Wow. OK, so now "terrorists" have just bombed the IRS building. Now "terrorists" have killed off Senator X. It's a propaganda war, and, like it or not, the use of "unjustifiable" (i.e., not in self-defense) violence really makes the folks that we want on our side sour to our cause.
    B.) The lessons of history support me, in large measure (look at the Oklahoma City bombing. That was in retaliation, supposedly, for two very heinous government crimes (Ruby Ridge and Waco). Does anyone see McVeigh as a hero? A liberator? Nope.). I fully support being prepared for severe totalitarianism, including genocide. I fully support subverting the government, burying rifles in your backyard, etc. But you have to start fights you can win. You initiate violence with the federal government, and guess who everyone sees as being in the right? Not you. Now, if the government were to attack us first...
    Thanks for listening

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    GeorgeHill

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #45 on: November 12, 2008, 01:28:35 pm »
    Whoa.   Slow the roll here.  reconciliation withe the enemy?

    We are talking political opinion differences here.   Not enemies.   Brothers on the other side of the same coin.   
    most of the time we can agree with them on most subjects but disagree on a couple key issues... this does not make my fellow American my enemy.
    Rival, maybe.  But not Enemy.   Enemy is a very powerful term that should not be used so lightly.
    Now if you are talking an extreme example such as a hard core liberal who is pushing communism ... well... then maybe...  But let's be more careful with the use of some of these words.  Comrade Obama has said "Words have meaning".   
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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #46 on: November 12, 2008, 01:30:48 pm »
    Quote from: George Hill
    Comrade Obama has said "Words have meaning".

    Good heavens...I wouldn't have expected him to quote Ayn Rand like that.   ;D

    If people who are on what we see as "our side" are attacked, remember: nonviolence, exemplified by Gandhi and King, is not pacifism. Nonviolence is not passivity.

    Nonviolence is a means of waging conflict.

    It works.
    One great frailty of human nature, an inability or indisposition to compare a distant, though certain inconvenience or distress with a present convenience or delight is said...to be prevalent in Americans so as to make it one of their distinguishing charac

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #47 on: November 12, 2008, 01:43:26 pm »
    Exactly what I am saying, Brian!
    Thanks for listening

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    Thernlund

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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #48 on: November 12, 2008, 02:04:32 pm »
    But let's be more careful with the use of some of these words.  Comrade Obama has said "Words have meaning".  

    Words only have the meaning given them by the listener.  People give words power.  By themselves they are just words, and all words have a place.

    That said, the speaker can take some of the responsibility by giving their words proper context.  If I say, "Obama won?!  Good grief, just kill me now!", I don't expect that anyone will think I am asking them to actually take my life.

    So while the speaker of the words shares responsibility for their interpretation, to my mind the listener shoulders the bulk of the responsibility for their proper interpretation.

    To the point... I think we use the word "enemy" in this discussion as a term describing those on the other side of the issue at hand.  We do not mean those who oppose us in an armed conflict.


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    Re: A little theorizing...*WARNING-Think long, Post carefully*
    « Reply #49 on: November 12, 2008, 06:44:43 pm »
    I think there has to be compromise.  If there isn't because one or both sides "know" they're right, then we get a stand off and that solves nothing.  Like it or not, there are many many Americans that feel that liberal ideas are right.  If we refuse to negotiate, then we deny an entire half of the population.  The same goes for them. 
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