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General Topics => General Non-Firearms Discussion => Topic started by: booksmart on July 02, 2013, 02:32:25 pm

Title: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: booksmart on July 02, 2013, 02:32:25 pm
http://news.yahoo.com/ap-impact-more-air-passengers-show-guns-161232583.html; (http://news.yahoo.com/ap-impact-more-air-passengers-show-guns-161232583.html;)

Quote
WASHINGTON (AP) — Several times every day, at airports across the country, passengers are trying to walk through security with loaded guns in their carry-on bags, purses or pockets, even in a boot. And, nearly a dozen years after 9/11, it's happening a lot more often.

In the first six months of this year, Transportation Security Administration screeners found 894 guns on passengers or in their carry-on bags, a 30 percent increase over the same period last year. The TSA set a record in May for the most guns seized in one week — 65 in all, 45 of them loaded and 15 with bullets in the chamber and ready to be fired. That was 30 percent more than the previous record of 50 guns, set just two weeks earlier.

Last year TSA found 1,549 firearms on passengers attempting to go through screening, up 17 percent from the year before.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Arktos on July 02, 2013, 02:40:28 pm
Is it that hard to check a bag?
Wait, no this is a matter of intelgence....
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: schapm on July 02, 2013, 03:24:47 pm
Is it that hard to check a bag?
Wait, no this is a matter of intelgence....

...said the man who can't spell "intelligence."
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: schapm on July 02, 2013, 03:25:12 pm
^ The devil made me do it.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Kaso on July 02, 2013, 04:04:09 pm
Is it that hard to check a bag?
Do you mean by the TSA, or by the passenger at home?  If the TSA, I think the detected guns are a result of them doing their jobs successfully.  If the passenger... I (and many others on the board) would argue that the passengers should be permitted to carry for their safety.



Kaso
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Kaso on July 02, 2013, 04:08:52 pm
...said the man who can't spell "intelligence."
  :eh Oh, come on...  You've never misspelled a word on the board?  :bash



Kaso
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: ZeroTA on July 02, 2013, 05:30:50 pm
Get a brain, morans.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Coronach on July 02, 2013, 05:45:57 pm
I misspell words all the time, but I try to make sure that I'm not trying to demonstrate how smart I am, or how dumb someone else is, when I do it.

WTA, now with added irony!

Mike
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Chrissmitty820 on July 02, 2013, 05:47:32 pm
Get a brain, morans.

It's MARONS

 >:D
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: LoneStarNational on July 02, 2013, 08:11:17 pm
Guns fly just fine, thank you. Just not in your carry on.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Kaso on July 02, 2013, 08:57:25 pm
I misspell words all the time, but I try to make sure that I'm not trying to demonstrate how smart I am, or how dumb someone else is, when I do it.
You have a point.



Kaso
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: freeman1685 on July 02, 2013, 09:42:33 pm
Do you mean by the TSA, or by the passenger at home?  If the TSA, I think the detected guns are a result of them doing their jobs successfully.  If the passenger... I (and many others on the board) would argue that the passengers should be permitted to carry for their safety.


Kaso

If you mean by that, that I should be able to travel freely with my gun, well yeah. 

But not in the pressurized cabin, at 35K feet, where some drunk passenger with a beef can get his hands on it.  And before you try to tell me how responsible most gun owners are, I got two words for ya:  Tex Grebner.  Can you imagine an idiot like that, having access to a gun in flight?  :panic

Little pieces of lead flying around at around 1500FPS, is a recipe for disaster.  I'm good with checking my weapon into the cargo area, with my luggage.

The rounds issued to people like Air Marshals are specially designed for use on airplanes, something not commercially available.  LE only, 'Anti Terrorist' rounds developed by the Israelis back in the 70s and early 80s.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: RetroGrouch on July 02, 2013, 10:04:38 pm
It is actually really hard to bring down an aircraft with a handgun, so long as you don't shoot the autopilot and both pilots (yes, computers actually fly commercial aircraft, pilots only do the take offs and landings to maintain certifications on the aircraft).  Kind of designed that way.


And the rounds Air Marshall's use can be bought by anyone who can legally buy ammo.

Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Arktos on July 02, 2013, 10:06:38 pm
 
...said the man who can't spell "intelligence."
A perfectly reasonable response. My poor excuse is that my spellchecker seems to stop working on occasion.

Autopilot can land aircraft these days. The pilots are mostly there for legal reasons and the odd malfunction.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: freeman1685 on July 02, 2013, 10:20:06 pm
It is actually really hard to bring down an aircraft with a handgun, so long as you don't shoot the autopilot and both pilots (yes, computers actually fly commercial aircraft, pilots only do the take offs and landings to maintain certifications on the aircraft).  Kind of designed that way.

Ok, where exactly did I say anything about bringing an aircraft down with a gun?  I'm talking about sudden depressurization of the passenger cabin @ 35,000 feet.

Quote
And the rounds Air Marshall's use can be bought by anyone who can legally buy ammo.

Wanna Bet?
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: JesseL on July 02, 2013, 10:25:06 pm
Ok, where exactly did I say anything about bringing an aircraft down with a gun?  I'm talking about sudden depressurization of the passenger cabin @ 35,000 feet.

Bullets won't generally do anything significant in that regard either.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Arktos on July 02, 2013, 10:35:34 pm

Ok, where exactly did I say anything about bringing an aircraft down with a gun?  I'm talking about sudden depressurization of the passenger cabin @ 35,000 feet.

Actually no. Cabin depressurization from small holes is very slow. Aloha Airlines Flight 243 lost a good chunk of the fuselage but remained somewhat airworthy. The plane landed safely, though one flight attendant was blown out. Aircrews are trained to dive as fast as safely possible in the event of a cabin depressurization. Cockpits are now separate pressure vessels, keeping the pilots pressurized and awake in the event the passenger cabin looses pressure.
 
All that said, an airliner is about the worst place for a gunfight, purely because of the liner arrangement and seating density. Know your target, and know what is behind it.

Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: LoneStarNational on July 02, 2013, 10:43:16 pm
The only issue with guns on a plane is the incredibly crowded conditions, which make firing any handgun an extremely hazardous endeavor. For this reason, I can live with checking it.  Kinda like a college or professional sports stadium- the one other area where I will concede firearms MAY be a bad idea.

I believe this is also the issue behind the "special" air Marshall rounds.  Aren't they just run of the mill frangibles?
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Arktos on July 02, 2013, 10:45:06 pm
  I thought they used Glaser Safety Slugs. Regardless, a missed round or even fragments of it would be very, very bad.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Coronach on July 02, 2013, 11:17:17 pm
Yep. To concur/confirm, the reason that gunfights in aircraft are bad is not because of depressurization, it is because of the layout and seating density. There is also the odd chance that a round could hit some critical piece of equipment, but that's a really small chance, and much of the equipment that could be damaged by gunfire is redundant. The big thing is the backdrop; it will almost always be "people" unless care is taken.

One safety tip: if you are on a flight and you think you may have a brewing confrontation between a hijacker/nutjob and an Air Marshal (or if you're on the ground and the plane is about to be assaulted), stay seated when the bad guy is up and in the aisle. If you're up, you're in the line of fire.

Mike

PS Air Marshals use a standard, non-frangible, hollowpoint round.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: LoneStarNational on July 03, 2013, 12:07:34 am
PS Air Marshals use a standard, non-frangible, hollowpoint round.

As it should be.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Avenger29 on July 03, 2013, 12:18:27 am
Quote
Ok, where exactly did I say anything about bringing an aircraft down with a gun?  I'm talking about sudden depressurization of the passenger cabin @ 35,000 feet.


Dont fall for Hollywood bulls___. Hollywood knows less about aircraft than they do about guns.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Corey on July 03, 2013, 12:21:53 am

PS Air Marshals use a standard, non-frangible, hollowpoint round.


Specifically, they carry the Sig Sauer P229 in .357 Sig loaded with Speer Gold Dots. Not a set up known for shallow penetration. They are not at all concerned about putting extra holes in the plane.

Edited to add: Here is what explosive decompression of a passenger jet actually looks like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Airlines_Flight_243  It takes a lot more than a few dozen 9mm holes to do that.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: NukMed on July 03, 2013, 07:08:36 am
I'd be fine with letting the airlines decide for themselves whether or not firearms could be carried aboard their aircraft in the same way that businesses on the ground decide.  After all, if air marshals are not only allowed, but required to carry arms aboard, I see no logical reason why I can't if I choose.

I say take the TSA and other government regulations out of the picture and let the airlines decide for themselves what they will allow.  I, for one, would make it a point of flying a pro-2A airline if given a choice.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Coronach on July 03, 2013, 08:49:21 am
I have no problem with airlines and other venues denying admittance to people carrying guns, provided a few simple steps are followed:

1. There is actual security in place to screen people going in, so that people other than the obedient are actually stopped from carrying, too.

2. There are competent armed guards present to protect me for when #1 fails.

3. There is a process for checking in guns so that I can have my weapon when I come to and leave your little weapon-free utopia.

4. You are legally liable for my safety, and I (or my family) can sue you into the poor house if you fail to protect me.

Deny me my right to carry, you become responsible for my safety. Period.

Mike

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Arktos on July 03, 2013, 08:57:33 am
I, for one, would make it a point of flying a pro-2A airline if given a choice.

  I doubt there would be any. The airports would probably have say, at both ends of the trip. Also, the insurance companies probably would not like the idea of armed passengers.
 
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Evil Jim on July 03, 2013, 09:02:38 am
The only firearms and TSA booboo I have had was not realizing I had a loaded magazine in my carry on.


Jim

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: NukMed on July 03, 2013, 10:31:33 am
  I doubt there would be any. The airports would probably have say, at both ends of the trip. Also, the insurance companies probably would not like the idea of armed passengers.
 

I had considered that possibility as well.  We won't know for sure, though, until the feds with all their anti-2A regs. are out of the way.

Insurance companies would either adjust premiums (or not) or deny coverage if an airline insisted on allowing passengers to carry weapons.  I'm not an actuary, but I bet that since there has not been general access to firearms by the civilian passengers on an airliner in the States for decades that there is no data from which to calculate the risk and determine the proper rate to charge.

As for the airports, I can see issues arising from state to state variance in carry laws.  I imagine that the "stricter" state laws would hold sway.  For example, even if Utah law and airline policy were to allow me to board in Salt Lake with my .45 under my shirt, I probably shouldn't if my final destination is NYC, where I can't carry concealed.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Arktos on July 03, 2013, 10:36:41 am
  Remember, airlines are volume industries. They make very little money on each ticket at most, loose money on many, and end up with a profit, hopefully, through a massive number of sales. Many airliners have to declare bankruptcy at every available opportunity to remove debt loads and union contracts. I don't think they would want to increase their operating costs at all. A specialty 2nd amendment airliner might be possible in some areas, regional flights in Texas for example, but it would be much more expensive.

 
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: NukMed on July 03, 2013, 10:46:05 am

[/quote]
  Remember, airlines are volume industries. They make very little money on each ticket at most, loose money on many, and end up with a profit, hopefully, through a massive number of sales. Many airliners have to declare bankruptcy at every available opportunity to remove debt loads and union contracts. I don't think they would want to increase their operating costs at all. A specialty 2nd amendment airliner might be possible in some areas, regional flights in Texas for example, but it would be much more expensive.

 

All that may be true.  We won't know for sure how 2A freedom will affect airline bottom lines until the regs are eliminated and the airlines start making their own choices.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: sohmdaddy on July 03, 2013, 11:26:30 am
"Several times every day, at airports across the country, passengers are trying to walk through security with loaded guns in their carry-on bags, purses or pockets, even in a boot"

This is the problem with the phrase, "It's so comfortable, I forget that it's there."

You should never 'forget' that you carry a weapon. It should affect the way that you think, the way you look at people and your surroundings. When you put your gun in its holster, a switch should go off in your brain. Deadly weapons are serious business, and you need to educate yourself about where they can be carried legally. Don't be so naive to think that because you have decided to carry a gun, suddenly the whole world agrees with you and laws lose their efficacy.

If you don't educate yourself, then you may mindlessly wander into a felony conviction, and then you can never own guns again. Great job, genius.

We talk a lot about awareness of your surroundings, scanning for potential threats. Well, I think that a situation where you will lose the ability to legally own guns is a pretty big threat to your safety.

Just. . . act like an adult. Be responsible for yourself.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Outbreak on July 03, 2013, 03:10:28 pm
Almost everyone who replied about bullets vs airplanes is wrong. First, I can say with 100% certainty that no bullet hole smaller than 1.0 caliber will decompress an airplane. We use the sextant port (approx 1" opening) on the C-130 to vent farts from the flight deck. Doesn't even phase the cabin pressure. The emergency depressurization valve was about a foot in diameter. I did experience that openning in flight which resulted in a rapid decompression.

Frangible vs solid projectiles makes no difference. Carry on an airplane is no more or less risky than carrying on a train, bus, crowded hallway, theater or busy street. Limit cockpit access and bulletproof the bulkhead between the flight deck and cabin and the risk goes down significantly. Suddenly, pulling a gun is much more dangerous for the skyjacker than anyone else on board.

Sent from my LCARS PADD
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Nick Cage on July 03, 2013, 03:14:03 pm
Yep, the founding fathers supplied us with the best possible airplane security:: The 2nd Amendment.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Mr. E. Monkey on July 04, 2013, 02:08:03 am
Dont fall for Hollywood bulls___. Hollywood knows less about aircraft than they do about guns.
And that's saying something!!!
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: kunkmiester on July 04, 2013, 03:58:22 am
Quote
Many airliners have to declare bankruptcy at every available opportunity to remove debt loads and union contracts. I don't think they would want to increase their operating costs at all.
I suspect that in any universe where they were permitted the option, a lot of those other issues would be non issues, and there would be much more profit margin to use in considering such options.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: RMc on July 04, 2013, 07:14:33 am

From the Keep And Bear Arms site:

"KABA Note: To put that in perspective, that is less than 1 in 450,000 travelers."
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: booksmart on July 04, 2013, 09:05:27 am

From the Keep And Bear Arms site:

"KABA Note: To put that in perspective, that is less than 1 in 450,000 travelers."

Considering we haven't been allowed to carry on planes for, 40-50 years? It's still too many people being stupid about their firearms.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: RMc on July 04, 2013, 05:30:51 pm
Considering we haven't been allowed to carry on planes for, 40-50 years? It's still too many people being stupid about their firearms.

.0002% 
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: IMerrell on July 05, 2013, 11:43:12 am
yes, computers actually fly commercial aircraft, pilots only do the take offs and landings to maintain certifications on the aircraft.

Heard one of the airlines is considering replacing the co-pilot with a dog. The pilot will be there to feed the dog, the dog is there to bite the pilot if he touches anything.
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: lesptr on July 05, 2013, 12:57:42 pm
Pilot also carries gun to shoot dog in emergencies. (That's how I heard it anyway)
Title: Re: *facepalm* Guns Do Not Fly, people...
Post by: Arktos on July 05, 2013, 06:55:45 pm
Heard one of the airlines is considering replacing the co-pilot with a dog. The pilot will be there to feed the dog, the dog is there to bite the pilot if he touches anything.
(https://wethearmed.com/data:image/jpeg;base64,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)  They already replaced the Flight Engineer with a computer. Now there is one less brain in the event of an airborne emergency, going against a practice that was standard during more than half the history of human flight.
That joke goes back to the beginning of industrial automation. Some factories have dispensed with the man and dog altogether and don't even keep the lights on. Hence the name "lights out factory." Good news is that the FAA is fighting drones as hard as it can, the things are still a bit... crashy.