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Author Topic: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!  (Read 3736 times)

RMc

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"Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
« on: June 16, 2020, 12:31:06 am »
The revolutionary zeal of the "cancel culture" movement is alive and well in the UK, as this cringe-worthy news clip reveals!


« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 12:42:42 am by RMc »
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    coelacanth

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #1 on: June 16, 2020, 01:37:14 am »
     :facepalm   Democracy is usually its own worst enemy. 
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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #2 on: June 16, 2020, 06:08:17 am »
    Yes we have our fair share of morons as well. The sorts of people who would label Queen Victoria as a slave owner when she took the throne in 1837, four years after slavery and the slave trade was abolished throughout the entire British Empire and more than sixty after it was abolished with the UK. They've also vandalised a statue of Robert the Bruce, labeling him a racist without any evidence other than the fact that he was a white man.
    I'm willing to bet that few if any of the BLM movement in the UK (a group that seems to be nothing more than a front for the extreme left wing Socialist Workshy Party) would have a clue about how slavery was abolished with the Empire or the actions of the West Africa Squadron of the Royal Navy.
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    coelacanth

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #3 on: June 16, 2020, 01:03:45 pm »
    Yup.  Western civilization has become a victim of its own success - or excess - depending on your point of view. 

    The phenomenon has been described often and by better minds than my own but this one quote seems appropriate of late;

    " The capacity of the human mind for swallowing nonsense and spewing it forth in violent and repressive action has never yet been plumbed."
                                                                                                                                                                     
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    booksmart

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #4 on: June 17, 2020, 04:11:22 pm »
    Here's the problem with decrying "Cancel Culture":  there's a discernible difference between teaching history, and glorifying a movement.

    If you want to teach history, you put it in a book.

    If you want to glorify something, you put up a statue.  A lot of those statues were put up during the 1950-60's, in response to the Civil Rights movement.

    Hell, look at Georgia's own Stone Mountain, and it's history.

    If y'all want to keep claiming to be "The Party of Lincoln," you can't keep trying to wave the Confederate Flag. Pick one, and stick with it.

    Plebian

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #5 on: June 17, 2020, 06:15:32 pm »
    Here's the problem with decrying "Cancel Culture":  there's a discernible difference between teaching history, and glorifying a movement.

    If you want to teach history, you put it in a book.

    If you want to glorify something, you put up a statue.  A lot of those statues were put up during the 1950-60's, in response to the Civil Rights movement.

    Hell, look at Georgia's own Stone Mountain, and it's history.

    If y'all want to keep claiming to be "The Party of Lincoln," you can't keep trying to wave the Confederate Flag. Pick one, and stick with it.

    It is quite easy to forget or have never read a book. Statues are hard to ignore either for the positive or the negative.

    You need to remember your history so you can learn from it, rather that be of heroes or villains.

    A statue is erected for something you do not wish to forget. That can be a statue to Guy Fawkes in the UK, or a statue of Lincoln in the USA.

    If you remove the statue you remove untold millions of teaching moments when the uneducated come face to face with the statue. Those moments can be lessons of actions to not repeat, or they can be lessons of the actions of heroes. They can also be lessons about both at the same time.

    I know the modern liberal hates nuance and context, but history is filled with both.

    It also seems quite appropriate to wave a flag of rebellion from time to time. That would seem to me to be a very apt thing for an American to do.   
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    coelacanth

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #6 on: June 17, 2020, 11:54:24 pm »
    Well said - and I concur. 

    Here's the problem with decrying "Cancel Culture":  there's a discernible difference between teaching history, and glorifying a movement.

    If you want to teach history, you put it in a book.

    If you want to glorify something, you put up a statue.  A lot of those statues were put up during the 1950-60's, in response to the Civil Rights movement.

    Hell, look at Georgia's own Stone Mountain, and it's history.

    If y'all want to keep claiming to be "The Party of Lincoln," you can't keep trying to wave the Confederate Flag. Pick one, and stick with it.
    "Cancel Culture" is just the latest trendy name for for an idea that is as old as human history.  No substantive difference from book burnings or removing some previous pharoah's name from all the stone monuments in ancient Egypt.  I decry anything that seeks to hide the truth and so do all who value it over some real or imagined disadvantage it might pose. 

    If you want to teach history you don't put it in a book - except as reference material.  You live it and breathe it and talk about it and learn all that it has to teach you and your children and grandchildren.  I've seen a lot of statuary that was not about glorifying anything - just remembering it for what it was.  If you take it to be glorifying something, so be it.  That's on you - not me. 

    I can't fathom the reason for tearing down a statue erected to commemorate the life and work of a committed abolitionist or, a statue erected to commemorate the emancipation of the slave population of America and the president who signed that legislation into law and paid for by freedmen and their families or,  a statue commemorating the first black regiment raised to fight in the Civil War or, a statue of Christopher Columbus.   Perhaps we can chalk that up to one of those moments Plebian mentioned above, " .  .  .  when the uneducated come face to face with the statue.".    :hmm

    Personally, I'm OK with anybody who wants to wave the banner of the old Confederacy.  Doesn't bother me a bit because I know the money in their wallet says "The United States of America" and they all seem to celebrate Independence Day just like the rest of us.  Like I said, history has to be lived and breathed and learned from - good, bad or indifferent.   As I recall the Republican Party was and is the party of Abraham Lincoln and they stood for the abolition of slavery and, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would not have passed through Congress without the votes of Republican senators to outweigh the Democrat votes against it.  That's the way it happened, brother.  You could probably read it in a book somewhere if you're so inclined. 

    "Pick one, and stick with it." sounds like marriage advice to me and good advice at that.   :cool
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    booksmart

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #7 on: June 19, 2020, 09:56:50 am »
    Here's why I don't buy it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy#:~:text=The%20Lost%20Cause%20of%20the,a%20just%20and%20heroic%20one.

    Gone with the Wind. Stone Mountain. About 95.5% of the Confederate monuments y'all are so bent on keeping. Naming Fort Benning after a Confederate general, etc.

    All part of a revisionist attempt to make the Confederacy look like a grand movement instead of a grasping attempt to keep hold of a way of life that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

    You can celebrate the same history by putting up statues to the winning side.

    Let's rename Ft. Benning after Sherman.

    Some other good suggestions here: https://warontherocks.com/2020/06/for-a-grander-army-of-the-republic-better-names-for-bases/

    Renaming an air base after the most distinguished of the Tuskegee Red Tails isn't a bad idea, either, if it hasn't been done yet (perhaps Col. William Campbell?).
    « Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 11:06:31 am by booksmart »

    goatroper

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #8 on: June 19, 2020, 02:18:30 pm »
    Here's why I don't buy it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy#:~:text=The%20Lost%20Cause%20of%20the,a%20just%20and%20heroic%20one.

    Gone with the Wind. Stone Mountain. About 95.5% of the Confederate monuments y'all are so bent on keeping. Naming Fort Benning after a Confederate general, etc.

    All part of a revisionist attempt to make the Confederacy look like a grand movement instead of a grasping attempt to keep hold of a way of life that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

    You can celebrate the same history by putting up statues to the winning side.

    Let's rename Ft. Benning after Sherman.

    Some other good suggestions here: https://warontherocks.com/2020/06/for-a-grander-army-of-the-republic-better-names-for-bases/

    Renaming an air base after the most distinguished of the Tuskegee Red Tails isn't a bad idea, either, if it hasn't been done yet (perhaps Col. William Campbell?).

    Not impressed with your woke Wiki history.  Its derogatory tone doesn't fit with forms of historical debate that I'm familiar with -- but I'm old and probably don't understand y'all's version of one-upmanship that's replaced debate.  And I'm not sure who the "y'all" is that you say is so "bent on keeping" Confederate monuments; didn't see anyone being as emphatic on that point as you make it appear.

    "All part of a revisionist attempt to make the Confederacy look like a grand movement instead of a grasping attempt to keep hold of a way of life that shouldn't have existed in the first place."  That's a pretty broad statement.  How do you actually know all the minutiae -- all the nuance y'all seem to consider so important -- and the broader weave of the fabric of life and culture over so large an area that you can blithely dismiss all of it?  Oral history is still operational in much of the South, and it tends to be primarily about family and family history.  That's a rich cultural vein you're passing over.  If it was only about slavery, why was slavery not abolished until after the war?  Why did the Emancipation Proclamation not appear until 1863? 

    I could go on in that vein, but arguing with your talking points I believe is a vain exercise.  Maybe you could profit from a historical point of view that's a bit different.

    https://www.timesexaminer.com/mike-scruggs/6837-will-removing-confederate-symbols-promote-social-peace-of-course-not

    http://www.thetribunepapers.com/2019/04/09/the-battle-for-truth-and-southern-heritage/

    https://www.thetribunepapers.com/2020/02/13/the-tariff-road-to-civil-war/

    http://www.thetribunepapers.com/2018/01/18/remembering-robert-e-lee-measuring-true-greatness/

    https://www.thetribunepapers.com/2018/06/15/false-narratives-of-american-history/

    https://www.thetribunepapers.com/2020/02/21/the-presidential-campaign-of-1860/


    I don't for a minute expect you to agree with any of these (if you even read them), but there is some good historical/cultural information there -- which is to say that there is a whole 'nother world of memory/history/opinion/cultural values that you're writing off here.  I believe the first article linked above speaks to that better than I could.

    Have a better day.
    VirginiaGoatroper

    coelacanth

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #9 on: June 19, 2020, 02:28:38 pm »
    Here's why I don't buy it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy#:~:text=The%20Lost%20Cause%20of%20the,a%20just%20and%20heroic%20one.

    Gone with the Wind. Stone Mountain. About 95.5% of the Confederate monuments y'all are so bent on keeping. Naming Fort Benning after a Confederate general, etc.

    All part of a revisionist attempt to make the Confederacy look like a grand movement instead of a grasping attempt to keep hold of a way of life that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

    You can celebrate the same history by putting up statues to the winning side.

    Let's rename Ft. Benning after Sherman.

    Some other good suggestions here: https://warontherocks.com/2020/06/for-a-grander-army-of-the-republic-better-names-for-bases/

    Renaming an air base after the most distinguished of the Tuskegee Red Tails isn't a bad idea, either, if it hasn't been done yet (perhaps Col. William Campbell?).

    Who's the "revisionist" now y'all?   :hmm     Like I said in the previous post, what you believe is just that.  Nothing more, nothing less and it doesn't change actual history.   My family is all from a border state and has been since the end of the eighteenth century and early nineteenth century.  My only relative that served in the war fought for the Union army, an uncle of my great grandmother on my mother's side. 

    She knew a lot more about the subject than you will ever know because she lived it and breathed it as a girl.  I had the good fortune to live in the same house with her so I got to spend a lot of time as a kid talking to her and listening to her tell me about her life and times.  The war came to them in the form of economic hardship on people who wanted no part of it and the rancor on both sides.   Rural folk have always depended on each other to get through hard times so they learned early on that while your neighbor may not think like you do on some things he was still your neighbor and deserved to be treated as such.  People were drawn into the conflict peripherally through no action of their own other than the misfortune of having homesteaded a particular patch of ground.   Having a situation forced upon you by distant and unfathomable acts of governments you've never seen and wouldn't recognize if you did is the reality of the vast majority of the people alive at that time. 

    Secession from the Union was considered viable and even necessary by the same class of people who, today, populate the Chambers of Commerce and tell us we have to embrace globalism and open borders.  Not much has changed, really, as witnessed by the fact that you seem determined to support and justify acts of violence and vandalism against people you disagree with even though we are all at least four or five generations removed from the burr under your saddle.  A closer examination of the history of the country would, hopefully, generate some sort of understanding that the defeat of the Confederacy and the Reconstruction Era with all its attendant problems was the source of the need to bind up the wounds of those on the short end of that stick.  The same people who ended up donating land and resources to the federal government for all sorts of things those in the north didn't want in their back yard like vast numbers military bases, national cemeteries and the like and who, for all the time since have been the backbone of our military culture and traditions.  You know, the ones that fought and died for the United States of America all over the world from the Spanish American War to WWI and WWII and the Korean War and everything since. 

    Yeah, those people.  Politicians have always been politicians and there has never been a statue erected in a public square anywhere that wasn't the brainchild of one or more of them.  Same principle applies for naming military bases or even whole classes of weaponry.  They usually have more to do with some perceived need to curry favor with the voting public than with any sincere desire to honor our history but that's an editorial for another thread.  Point is, nearly all those statues seem to have been erected in hereditary Democrat strongholds by Democrat politicians for the purpose of continuing that tradition. Y'all.  Whatever the reason they were put up they do represent actual historic figures and/or events so to the degree they make the uneducated think about the subject I'm OK with it.  Rewriting history remains the same pointless exercise it has always been.  Knowing and understanding history remains the critical facet of citizenship it has always been. 

    The article you quote from Wikipedia seems poorly researched from my perspective.  It references an idea that we heard as kids but had the good sense to recognize for what it was.  We got the gist of it from some of the old timers - none of whom actually took part in the conflict - who seemed content to romanticize a national tragedy from the comfort of their armchairs.  My great-grandmother considered it the mental equivalent of "road apples" to use her terminology.  Our parents and grandparents taught us how to think - not what to think and back when they still taught history and civics in school we had many classroom discussions and dinner table discussions about such things.  It was during the "civil rights" era of the 1950's and 1960's so the discussions were topical and relevant to the news of the day - unlike this discussion.  I'm calling this what it is  - a red herring designed to appeal to fans of "what aboutism" and dodging any discussion of actual substance in favor of feigned outrage and virtue signalling. 

    As for the "War on the Rocks" article, while it raises some interesting points from the perspective of its twenty first century authors and editors keep in mind that it amounts to an editorial rather than a scholarly article and fails entirely to mention the whys and wherefores of the current situation.  They fail to note the existence of such bases as Ft. McClellan in Anniston, Alabama that was one of the largest, most active bases in the U.S. Army in the twentieth century.  Named, incidentally, for General George McClellan the commanding general of the Union Army at the outbreak of the Civil War.   Editorializing is fine as far as it goes but if you don't have an understanding of the subject matter or don't care to include a balanced portrayal of it in the editorial you can't expect to be taken seriously.  I understand the impulse to appear relevant - especially in today's 24/7/365 news cycle but, again, you cite a source of questionable reliability to bolster your argument.  Dude, seriously?   :shrug



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    booksmart

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #10 on: June 19, 2020, 03:02:06 pm »
    From a friend's FB page:

    Quote
    For those who think confederate symbols are patriotic history and not racist, I give you this. It’s a speech Alexander Stephens, the VP of the confederacy, gave in March 1861 about the need for a “revolution.” In the speech, it’s pretty clear that, 1) the confederates thought the American constitution and all of America’s ideals were “fundamentally wrong,” and 2) they thought white men were inherently superior to black men. So. Were they patriots? Not even a little. They were literal traitors to America. Were they racist? You better freakin believe it. Here’s what Stephens said:

    Quote
    “The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

    Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.”

    So, why do we celebrate the confederacy? It’s one thing to have chapters in history books, but quite another to erect monuments, and name streets and military bases after confederate generals. I mean, do the Germans call WW2 “just a part of our history” and celebrate their loss? Do they have “Hitler Blvd,” “Hitler military base” and statues of Hitler everywhere? Sure, it’s history, and we all should learn about it, but it’s not to be celebrated. So why do we do it here? I think we all know the answer.

    Read Stephens’ whole speech here:

    https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/cornerstone-speech?fbclid=IwAR0MT7JdyCC1FjqZiQxCkcn884cT7x7OnKc_ljZP_--XW6rg5yYsDtZ_SAQ

    Savannah, Georgia, March 21, 1861BY Alexander H. Stephens

    coelacanth

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #11 on: June 19, 2020, 03:14:30 pm »
    Yes, those of us conversant with the our history are aware of Mr. Stephens, his speech and his views on secession and slavery and his role in the Confederacy and the larger tapestry of nineteenth century American history.   Again, you take a snapshot - like the speech - and attempt to extrapolate the entirety of the larger picture from it.  It has never worked and it still doesn't. 

    It is akin to trying to capture the relationship between us from a single thread here on WTA.  I like you.  Always have.  I value our various long discussions over widely varying subjects over the years.   That said there have been times when I found myself aggravated by something you posted and called you on it.  If you look at one of those threads without considering all the rest of the content and interaction between us you would likely come away with an erroneous conclusion.

    Intellectual sloth is its own reward.   :coffee

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    booksmart

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #12 on: June 19, 2020, 04:23:34 pm »
    Raising monuments to a concept best swept into the dustbin of history is not how the entirety of a culture comes to grips with it - particularly not for those who were on the worst end of that concept.  For them, it is seen as an attempt to intimidate, to belittle, to "keep them in their place".

    You see a monument to a fallen soldier.

    They see glorification of what the soldier stood for and fought for, which was their subjugation.

    Until you can learn to see things from multiple angles, and empathize with how someone else might feel about something, there will always be a shortfall in the promise of a more perfect union.

    Look at it this way: next time you're in church, tell me how many statues of Satan you see. I'm willing to bet a) not many, if any, and b) he is not in a superior position.
    « Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 06:14:17 pm by booksmart »

    coelacanth

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #13 on: June 19, 2020, 06:15:41 pm »
    Raising monuments to a concept best swept into the dustbin of history is not how the entirety of a culture comes to grips with it - particularly not for those who were on the worst end of that concept.  For them, it is seen as an attempt to intimidate, to belittle, to "keep them in their place".

    You see a monument to a fallen soldier.

    They see glorification of what the soldier stood for and fought for, which was their subjugation.

    Until you can learn to see things from multiple angles, and empathize with how someone else might feel about something, there will always be a shortfall in the promise of a more perfect union.

    As gently as possible I, and others, have tried to bring you up to speed on what knowledge you seem to lack and why we think in the various ways we do.  That effort appears to have been wasted.   Ironically, your last sentence in the previous post sums up some of what we have tried to convey to you, apparently to no avail. 
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    booksmart

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #14 on: June 19, 2020, 07:40:27 pm »
    Knowledge I lack?

    In order,  I see a link for an opinion, a distortion of recorded fact (South Carolina's base cause for secession was protecting their right to own slaves+), and two deflections of cause (the Morrill Tarriff was on goods the South... the vast majority of which was produced by slave labor... Trump's trade war with China follows similar 'logic'), an attempt to whitewash slavery with Christianity#, and a personality piece on Lee (whose own descendants have said he didn't want memorials made to him).

    +

    # I've got two or three different relatives that fought for the Union. One of them was Charles Sherman, who died at the Battle of Cedar Creek, Va.  My mother found letters written home to his wife, Virtue, and published them (oh, heyy, primary source material! - https://www.amazon.com/Letters-Virtue-Civil-Journey-Courage/dp/1610055209).  In one of the letters, he details his company finding a runaway slave, wearing an iron collar with inward pointing spikes.
    Benign Christianity, my ass.

    Morrill Act P.S.:
    Quote
    The vote was largely but not entirely sectional. Republicans, all from the northern states, voted 89–2 for the bill. They were joined by 7 northern Democrats from New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. Five of these were "anti-Lecompton Democrats" (dissident Democrats who opposed the pro-slavery Lecompton constitution for Kansas).
      Even the passage of the Morrill Tarriff revolved around the issue of slavery.

    coelacanth

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #15 on: June 19, 2020, 09:33:46 pm »
    As gently as possible I, and others, have tried to bring you up to speed on what knowledge you seem to lack and why we think in the various ways we do.  That effort appears to have been wasted.   Ironically, your last sentence in the previous post sums up some of what we have tried to convey to you, apparently to no avail. 
    My response here is to your unedited post and therefore refers to the sentence before the last on in the edited post.  Sorry for any confusion. 

    So, we both have distant relatives who fought in the war.  On the same side.  Where does that leave us?   :hmm   

    A response to valid points made by other people in this thread is going to be required and so far we don't have it.  A number of us have covered this ground with you before and it isn't going to be any different here.  Posting links to things written by other people isn't going to cut it for the things you have said and implied here.  Deflection and red herring arguments and all the other things you have been called on before aren't going to be accepted as the coin of the realm anymore.  Point by point refutation is difficult and time consuming - especially when your opponents have the facts on their side.  Ignoring them is not optional.  So, with that said;

    What part of the modern incarnation of "Cancel Culture" are you in favor of? Is it the rioting in the streets? The looting and burning and general destruction of public and private property? The widespread destruction of all that thousands of people worked for most of their lives?  The injuries and the deaths caused by all this?  Is all that OK with you?  How about the calls for the death of sworn law enforcement officers by those same people?  You OK with that?  How does any of that relate to your last post?  Or any of your other posts in this thread?

    And yes, there is a lot of knowledge you seem to lack along with a few other things.   :scrutiny


               
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    Plebian

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #16 on: June 19, 2020, 10:11:34 pm »
    Raising monuments to a concept best swept into the dustbin of history is not how the entirety of a culture comes to grips with it - particularly not for those who were on the worst end of that concept.  For them, it is seen as an attempt to intimidate, to belittle, to "keep them in their place".

    You see a monument to a fallen soldier.

    They see glorification of what the soldier stood for and fought for, which was their subjugation.

    Until you can learn to see things from multiple angles, and empathize with how someone else might feel about something, there will always be a shortfall in the promise of a more perfect union.

    Look at it this way: next time you're in church, tell me how many statues of Satan you see. I'm willing to bet a) not many, if any, and b) he is not in a superior position.

    How far does it go on feelings? Can I call for the removal of all crosses, Christian churches and monuments? Should I violently destroy those things?

    There have been individuals on this very board say I am no better than Hitler because of my beliefs or lack of belief. My great grandfather had a rope scar around his neck where some fine Christians attempted to drag him to death for being a 'heathen'. I have a few scars from some fine Christian fellows trying to educate me as well.

    Do I see those crosses and Christian symbols as hate filled objects meant to keep me in my place, no. I see them as symbols that give some folks hope, and that they believe expresses the great things in their beliefs.

    If I can be asked to see multiple angles and empathize with how other individuals feel. Then I think other folks can do so as well.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    coelacanth

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #17 on: June 19, 2020, 11:50:16 pm »
    As long as we're throwing out links here's a couple of editorials;

    redstate.com/diary/colonel-race/2020/06/18/i-told-you-it-was-sick/

    redstate.com/diary/clint-fargeau/2020/06/19/on-the-advisability-of-arguing-with-crazy-people/


    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    coelacanth

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #18 on: June 20, 2020, 02:13:59 pm »
    As long as we're throwing out links here's a couple of editorials;

    redstate.com/diary/colonel-race/2020/06/18/i-told-you-it-was-sick/

    redstate.com/diary/clint-fargeau/2020/06/19/on-the-advisability-of-arguing-with-crazy-people/



    Whoops.  Forgot to add the   https://www.   to those links.  My bad.   :facepalm
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    goatroper

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #19 on: June 20, 2020, 04:33:58 pm »
    Raising monuments to a concept best swept into the dustbin of history is not how the entirety of a culture comes to grips with it - particularly not for those who were on the worst end of that concept.  For them, it is seen as an attempt to intimidate, to belittle, to "keep them in their place".

    You see a monument to a fallen soldier.

    They see glorification of what the soldier stood for and fought for, which was their subjugation.

    Until you can learn to see things from multiple angles, and empathize with how someone else might feel about something, there will always be a shortfall in the promise of a more perfect union.

    Look at it this way: next time you're in church, tell me how many statues of Satan you see. I'm willing to bet a) not many, if any, and b) he is not in a superior position.

    Once again, you base your argument on a one-and-only premise that I do not consider valid when used that way; the history of that era was simply not such a cut-and-dried monolith. 

    "Until you can learn to see things from multiple angles, and empathize with how someone else might feel about something, there will always be a shortfall in the promise of a more perfect union."

    Pot, meet kettle.
    VirginiaGoatroper

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #20 on: June 20, 2020, 06:38:27 pm »
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/20/ulysses-grant-statue-toppled-in-san-francisco/

    So much for it being only those horrible confederate statues being torn down. Guess that Grant fellow was on the wrong side of history as well.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    goatroper

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #21 on: June 21, 2020, 01:41:42 am »
    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/20/ulysses-grant-statue-toppled-in-san-francisco/

    So much for it being only those horrible confederate statues being torn down. Guess that Grant fellow was on the wrong side of history as well.

    ^This.

    And there you have it -- communist/socialist (or whatever the spruced-up term of the day applies) revolutions/takeovers always, inevitably, eat their own.  Higher-placed useful idiots and historically-adjusted are the first to go.
    VirginiaGoatroper

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #22 on: June 21, 2020, 02:03:40 am »
    As long as we're throwing out links here's a couple of editorials;

    redstate.com/diary/colonel-race/2020/06/18/i-told-you-it-was-sick/

    redstate.com/diary/clint-fargeau/2020/06/19/on-the-advisability-of-arguing-with-crazy-people/




    Good and instructive articles.

    And point well made.
    VirginiaGoatroper

    booksmart

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    Re: "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #23 on: June 21, 2020, 01:27:52 pm »
    Okay, this is going to take a while...

    Can I call for the removal of all crosses, Christian churches and monuments? Should I violently destroy those things?

    One person can go pound sand. When more than 50% of the population weighs in, it's a conversation worth having and listening to (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/majority-back-removing-confederate-statues-but-split-on-renaming-bases-poll.

    A response to valid points made by other people in this thread is going to be required and so far we don't have it.  A number of us have covered this ground with you before and it isn't going to be any different here.  Posting links to things written by other people isn't going to cut it for the things you have said and implied here.  Deflection and red herring arguments and all the other things you have been called on before aren't going to be accepted as the coin of the realm anymore.  Point by point refutation is difficult and time consuming - especially when your opponents have the facts on their side.  Ignoring them is not optional.

    I have answered them, and I've answered them point by point.  The links posted by y'all have been quoting other people, any reason I shouldn't so the same?  And as for that, the links I have posted have come from more neutral sources than yours - The Tribune Papers is a *distinctly* conservative newspaper chain (probably even less neutral in it's coverage than Fox News, which is basically the propaganda wing of the Republican Party, for all intents and purposes), and treating it's articles like historical record is confirmation bias of the first order.  Wikipedia is at least democratic enough to let *either side* make changes, provided they can provide references.

    What part of the modern incarnation of "Cancel Culture" are you in favor of? Is it the rioting in the streets? The looting and burning and general destruction of public and private property? The widespread destruction of all that thousands of people worked for most of their lives?  The injuries and the deaths caused by all this?  Is all that OK with you?  How about the calls for the death of sworn law enforcement officers by those same people?  You OK with that?  How does any of that relate to your last post?  Or any of your other posts in this thread?

    If you've been paying attention to more than Fox News, the rioting & looting that have been going on for the past few weeks aren't *because* of "cancel culture," (and I really shouldn't have to explain the deaths of George Floyd, Brionna Taylor, and Ahmaud Arbery to you, and why you should be equally disturbed by them. Hell, my Mom is, and she's as right-wing as y'all are... possibly more).  "Cancel culture" has taken this as an opportunity to make headway, just like alt-right a______es have taken the rioting as opportunity to incite violence (please note: I am not saying the alt-right is the only source of fluffery in all this, antifa and plain old school anarchists are doing their share, too).

    My point is: laying everything that's happened in the past few weeks solely at the feet of "cancel culture" is myopic, and ill-informed. There's a hell of a lot more behind it, and ignoring that fact is not going to do any good.  It's trying to break a complicated confluence of events and times down into one movement, when that movement is part of a broad spectrum of concerns.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/jun/20/ulysses-grant-statue-toppled-in-san-francisco/

    So much for it being only those horrible confederate statues being torn down. Guess that Grant fellow was on the wrong side of history as well.

    You'd have to ask them why they took it down. Either they didn't realize who it was, or they did and they thought his record on the Indian Wars was grounds. I don't know (and he's a distant cousin, so I wouldn't mind if they'd put it back up).

    Sidenote: In my opinion, the two greatest stains on our history are the institution of slavery and our genocide of the Native Americans, and all the pain and suffering both have caused and continue to cause today.

    Cast aspersions all you want, buy I answered your points, and with historical documentation.  Slavery was the root cause of the turmoil leading up to the Civil War, and it was the root cause of states seceding, and therefore the root cause of the Civil War.  At the time, everything revolved around it as it's center.

    The *Confederacy* does not deserve to be memorialized with statuary. The truth of it deserves to be taught in our schools, and maybe memorialized in a museum.  When you want to learn a lesson from something that caused that much pain, you don't remember the people that fought to cause it, you remember the victims who suffered from it.

    lesptr

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    "Cancel Culture" vs Statues!
    « Reply #24 on: June 21, 2020, 03:03:02 pm »
    What was the root cause of “The War of Northern Aggression”? I forget.

    Booksmart for someone who has spent his adult life surrounded by academia, you have fallen victim to the re-writing of history. While slavery was A reason for the Civil War, it was not the root cause.

    Somebody remind me of why I stopped in here.
    fluff me! I made a mistake.

    And I did not say “fluff” btw.
    Georgia

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