Author Topic: Yikes!- Colt ,what have you done with the finish! (Read 6125 times)

tokugawa · « **on:** August 07, 2016, 10:00:36 pm »

Looked at a new Colt Delta Elite and Lightweight Commander. Not the Colt I remember- in 1970 they would have been in the reject bin. What they call bluing now , on the slide flats, is put over what appears to be a sanded finish, with lots of striations. The slide on the delta had a series of tiny vertical waves like the cutter had a slight out of round or the machine had a vibration. Maybe if people are used to looking at glocks it looks good.
I am sure the metallurgy is better now but man I miss those old smooth clean flat surfaces. And I don't understand- most of the gun is a bead blasted finish, can it really be that expensive to polish two slide flats? I think they just don't care, or that the shooting world has changed enough to "tactical" that a rough finish is acceptable. The Gold Cup the shop had, (or whatever they call it now) was noticeably better, like they went from 180 grit to 320 on the sanding...

The only decent finish I have seen on anything in the past 15 years or so was a Smith L-Tech, a seven shot custom shop 586- it had that smooth satin rust blue on it.

WeTheArmed.com

ZeroTA · « **Reply #1 on:** August 10, 2016, 08:55:17 am »

At a certain price point, you get what you get. Colt has to compete with all the other ~$1000 1911's which also don't have that great of a finish, usually black oxide or bead blasted stainless. You want a deep, rich 70's blued finish, pay the custom shop.

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GeorgeHill · « **Reply #2 on:** August 10, 2016, 09:47:46 am »

I don't accept that excuse. There are many decent and affordable guns out there with far better finishes.
Colt 1911's are over priced, but under par.
Even in their Mustangs... they are just not up to the fit and finish of the other guns in that class - the SIG 238 and Kimber Micro. Both of those are far better finished guns, with smoother actions and better sights and triggers. Comparing them side by side, all three together... the Colt fell way behind.

sqlbullet · « **Reply #3 on:** August 10, 2016, 10:22:21 am »

A good finish can be inexpensive. Parkerize or Cerakote, or both, can be done very economically.

But tool chatter and sanding marks are hallmarks of cutting corners. And Colt is definitely cutting corners. It is a brand that is currently owned as an investment, and is being milked IMHO. Donald Zilkha paid 27 million for it in 1994. That says quite a bit to me. They have old equipment that isn't being upgraded, and how do you complete price wise with a modern CNC shop when you are still running analog lathes and mills. Worse, the tool chatter that is seen so often indicates that even those analog tools aren't being maintained correctly.

Colt is running on its brand recognition. When their tooling fails I expect them to start outsourcing more and more of the work until you are buying a Brazilian or Filipino 1911 with Colt roll marks.

Kaso · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2016, 10:39:11 am »

Quote from: sqlbullet on August 10, 2016, 10:22:21 am

They have old equipment that isn't being upgraded, and how do you complete price wise with a modern CNC shop when you are still running analog lathes and mills?

You don't. Manufacturing either adapts or it dies. Colt seems headed for the latter.

This is not necessarily a bad thing. The US 'Springfield' Armory closed up in the 60's. Someone bought/used the name and took the ball and ran with it. This is a success story. Colt as it is now, is shameful, and the once-mighty name could benefit from such a reboot.

GeorgeHill · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2016, 01:17:24 pm »

http://madogre.com/?p=6657
Thanks for the Rant Prompt.

GeorgeHill · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2016, 01:18:31 pm »

Quote from: sqlbullet on August 10, 2016, 10:22:21 am

A good finish can be inexpensive. Parkerize or Cerakote, or both, can be done very economically.

If Rock Island Armory can do a better finish on a 1911 for under 500 bucks - then Colt can too.

Robinson · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2016, 02:03:53 pm »

Some of the comments about Colt in this thread surprise me. It's true they almost went bankrupt (again) lately, but they have also introduced several new products recently that say, to me at least, that they are paying attention.

And they use modern CNC equipment.

And the pistols they are making generally work. I use one as my carry gun and another as my HD gun and I have confidence in them.

Colt makes certain models with lackluster finish. The Colt Competition Pistol is matte blued, but it's a good finish for what the gun is. Some models are still available with a highly polished blue that is very nice. The new Combat Unit gun is pretty nice all the way around, and was based on input from some pretty knowledgeable folks.

I don't get why anyone would like to see Colt burn to the ground (so to speak). I think some old tapes are still being listened to.

MTK20 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2016, 02:17:06 pm »

Quote from: Robinson on August 10, 2016, 02:03:53 pm

Some of the comments about Colt in this thread surprise me. It's true they almost went bankrupt (again) lately, but they have also introduced several new products recently that say, to me at least, that they are paying attention.

And they use modern CNC equipment.

And the pistols they are making generally work. I use one as my carry gun and another as my HD gun and I have confidence in them.

Colt makes certain models with lackluster finish. The Colt Competition Pistol is matte blued, but it's a good finish for what the gun is. Some models are still available with a highly polished blue that is very nice. The new Combat Unit gun is pretty nice all the way around, and was based on input from some pretty knowledgeable folks.

I don't get why anyone would like to see Colt burn to the ground (so to speak). I think some old tapes are still being listened to.

? Please explain (the bold).

I was also surprised by the Colt hate here. I pick on them, but.... Are they really any worse than HK or Kimber? Sure, Colt might hate us cos we're civilians, but HK hates us cos we're civilians and because America won WWII

.

I think I could own a Colt 1911, but I don't think I'll ever buy a Kimber anything.... Except maybe that sexy K6 they have, my goodness that thing is tempting

.

Robinson · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2016, 03:37:30 pm »

Quote from: MTK20 on August 10, 2016, 02:17:06 pm

? Please explain (the bold).

I was also surprised by the Colt hate here. I pick on them, but.... Are they really any worse than HK or Kimber? Sure, Colt might hate us cos we're civilians, but HK hates us cos we're civilians and because America won WWII .

I think I could own a Colt 1911, but I don't think I'll ever buy a Kimber anything.... Except maybe that sexy K6 they have, my goodness that thing is tempting .

What I meant is that Colt really did go through a period where they seemed reluctant to update their offerings to reflect what the gun-buying public wants. They also did formerly use obsolete manufacturing methods. By "listening to old tapes" I mean that people make assumptions about the state of the current company regardless of what the facts are. Criticism of Colt's past decisions is fair. But opinions should take into account recent moves by the company to improve itself.

Colt has some good 1911 pistols in their catalog -- both new models and classic ones. They also sell well-made carbines. Buying a Colt OEM carbine and adding components you want is probably one of the best ways to build a highly reliable gun at a good price.

But the old mantras "Colt hates civilians, Colt uses old machinery, Colt just gets by on their name, blah blah blah" just refuse to die.

Kaso · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2016, 03:44:51 pm »

Quote from: Robinson on August 10, 2016, 02:03:53 pm

Some of the comments about Colt in this thread surprise me. It's true they almost went bankrupt (again) lately, ...

Quote from: Robinson on August 10, 2016, 02:03:53 pm

I don't get why anyone would like to see Colt burn to the ground (so to speak).

Because I pride myself on knowing when to find a life raft and jump off a sinking ship. Whether it is the unsinkable Titanic, a personal relationship, or a gun company, sometimes you just have to see the writing on the wall... And bail.

Colt needs to go. They need to be bought out by someone who cares, and is willing to rebuild them from the ground up. No matter how you look at it, or how much you like them, Colt is stuck in the past. Relying on their past glory, sure, but also their products: 1911s, SAAs, ARs, and the Mustangs - All stuff that they did well on in the past. Where is the creative innovation? Not at Colt.

MTK20 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 10, 2016, 03:50:36 pm »

What they need to do is bring back their double action revolvers

.

I wouldn't mind a brand new Detective Special or Python...

Once they get things squared away, of course.

Robinson · « **Reply #12 on:** August 10, 2016, 03:57:25 pm »

Quote from: Kaso on August 10, 2016, 03:44:51 pm

Because I pride myself on knowing when to find a life raft and jump off a sinking ship. Whether it is the unsinkable Titanic, a personal relationship, or a gun company, sometimes you just have to see the writing on the wall... And bail.

Colt needs to go. They need to be bought out by someone who cares, and is willing to rebuild them from the ground up. No matter how you look at it, or how much you like them, Colt is stuck in the past. Relying on their past glory, sure, but also their products: 1911s, SAAs, ARs, and the Mustangs - All stuff that they did well on in the past. Where is the creative innovation? Not at Colt.

Okay, so Colt should come out with a polymer framed striker fired pistol. Now THAT would be innovative!

Colt's leadership HAS been a problem for the company. They are introducing good new products and trying to turn things around. Which of course leads to you calling for them to dissolve the company. Makes perfect sense.

Robinson · « **Reply #13 on:** August 10, 2016, 03:58:14 pm »

Quote from: MTK20 on August 10, 2016, 03:50:36 pm

What they need to do is bring back their double action revolvers .

Stay tuned...

sqlbullet · « **Reply #14 on:** August 10, 2016, 03:58:36 pm »

When it comes to 1911's, what old glory? Realistically a 1970's Colt Gold Cup 1911 was about on par with todays RIA Ultra FS guns, except for the high polish blue finish.

HK hates civilians, at least that is what I hear.

As far as CNC machines, I am disheartened to hear they have them. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that old tooling was responsible for what is being seen, not just plain poor QC.

I don't care if they come or go. The are a fine American brand. But they charge a premium for the roll stamp on the side, and the roll stamp doesn't contribute to a good shooting firearm.

Kaso · « **Reply #15 on:** August 10, 2016, 04:09:10 pm »

Quote from: MTK20 on August 10, 2016, 03:50:36 pm

Once they get things squared away, of course.

Once someone else comes in and squares them away.

Quote from: Robinson on August 10, 2016, 03:57:25 pm

Okay, so Colt should come out with a polymer framed striker fired pistol. Now THAT would be innovative!

The market is flooded, but yes they should. Something new with the Pony on the side, not a rehash of something they did in decades past.

Quote from: Robinson on August 10, 2016, 03:57:25 pm

They are introducing good new products and trying to turn things around. Which of course leads to you calling for them to dissolve the company. Makes perfect sense.

Everything that have 'released' is a reintroduction of an old Colt product - either a 1911, an AR, or a Mustang. Even if they were to re-release the Python, and have it Not be a total embarrassment... It's still a '70s/'80s product. There is nothing to draw in the new crowd, only appeal to the old timers - or to those who just have to have a 'Colt.'

I do applaud them for finally putting out 'after ban' civilian ARs. A decade later than the rest of the market, but at least they did it.

Robinson · « **Reply #16 on:** August 10, 2016, 04:10:38 pm »

Okay. I'm a small minority here (possibly just myself) when it comes to this topic. That's fine. Colt certainly isn't the last word in firearms, but I do like (and count on) the Colt products I have. People hoping to see an iconic American brand fail strikes me as strange is all.

ksuguy · « **Reply #17 on:** August 10, 2016, 04:34:41 pm »

I used to have a lot of hate toward Ruger, but they have really been doing some good things the past few years. They have updated the pistol offerings, made some decent new AR style rifles, and really stepped things up with their new precision bolt gun. Colt needs to be doing something along those lines, but I am not seeing it right now.

Kaso · « **Reply #18 on:** August 10, 2016, 04:39:21 pm »

Quote from: Robinson on August 10, 2016, 04:10:38 pm

People hoping to see an iconic American brand fail strikes me as strange is all.

No, I don't hope that. I see that they have already failed, and are just waiting for economics to catch up.

That said, can they possibly do an about face? Yes. Odds are long, but yes. And I would be happy to see them do it, rather than go bankrupt... again.

MTK20 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 10, 2016, 04:50:11 pm »

Quote from: ksuguy on August 10, 2016, 04:34:41 pm

I used to have a lot of hate toward Ruger, but they have really been doing some good things the past few years. They have updated the pistol offerings, made some decent new AR style rifles, and really stepped things up with their new precision bolt gun. Colt needs to be doing something along those lines, but I am not seeing it right now.

I agree with this. Colt doesn't need to make a polymer handgun. Just because today's tactical shooter's zeigeist says that hi cap, 9mm, polymer is all the rage doesn't make adding another one to the pile any less mundane or boring.

Colt would be better served by bringing back the wheel guns and pandering to the 1911 lovers. Go back to your roots Colt. Keep your overly inflated prices, because I know you love the prestige in your name, but at that price point make art. For the premium you charge, make the quality found in Talo exclusives and the S&W performance centre your standard line up. The past line isn't bad, it doesn't need to be updated, it needs to be remembered. If Colt keeps the pricing, but makes the most beautifully fit and finished and mechanically sound guns they can at the price that is above Kimber and Sig, yet below that of Wilson and STI 1911's- then they will have found their market niche. They could ramp up advertising towards civilian CCW and then let the tools they make speak for themselves. One would have to be a fool to not appreciate a gun with beautiful fit and finish, tight tolerances, and a rich history. That alone would set it apart from the pack because it's not common plastic, because it's a Colt. That's what I would do if I were in charge of the company. Do what you are known for and then do it better at that price point than anyone else can.

Robinson · « **Reply #20 on:** August 10, 2016, 05:01:11 pm »

Guys like Paul Spitale and Mark Redl over at Colt have been trying to push things forward based on the goals of the end users. The new Combat Unit pistol is a good example of that. I think it competes favorably with guns from other manufacturers on both price and features. The guys who helped design it with Colt know a couple things I think. If I buy another 1911 it will probably be one of these in 9mm.

tokugawa · « **Reply #21 on:** August 10, 2016, 06:29:15 pm »

The mechanical aspects of the delta 10mm and the lightweight seemed fine, but after being used to the old finish on a Woodsman or 1903 , they just seem crude. This is not a problem with the WW repro's, because they are parkerized-

In truth, a really good blued finish is rare these days- and that is exactly why I want Colt to do it- it would be something to set their brand off as something special again. I love Colt pistols, my very first firearm was a Colt Woodsman .22. I have owned several Colts over the years, , all of which had a really nice deep blue.

The thing is, I just do not believe it cannot be done by machine- This is important- the difference between putting a high gloss polished blue on two dead flat surfaces (the sides of the slide) and polishing the complex compound curves of a Python is orders of magnitude.

A poor finish on a Colt is throwing away a reputation that was earned by 150 years of outstanding quality.