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Author Topic: FOPA and Always Carrying  (Read 6803 times)

Fenderbassist

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Re: FOPA and Always Carrying
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2016, 02:20:36 pm »
Been driving and walking armed in Arizona for almost 40 years. Have never had one single incident with any Native American law enforcement. I have to say the law is not well understood or enforced, or even thought out - I carried on Reservation land every day for 6 years doing armored truck stops at the casinos and grocery stores. Stop, before you say it - armored truckers are not LE, just security guards with no LE powers, generally carrying personal firearms that I have seen. So, any reservation law forcing the carry of personally owned firearms like quoted would have affected us too, unless there is a section of tribal law I am unfamiliar with at this point. I usually stay off native lands unless invited, which hasn't happened yet, simply because I don't hunt there, and I don't know anyone there, plus I have no use for casinos. Spent 5 days in Vegas, only gambled on the last day for about 2 hours, satisfied that curiosity for life. I don't sweat driving down the highway going across native lands, like I-10 does between Tucson and Phoenix, IIRC.
I have heard if you wander out deep in the reservations armed you WILL have issues, but I don't personally know a single person who has had those problems, not yet.

It sounds like the Tribal LE is "cool" with Security, where you worked.  It was like that for me back in NJ when I was in Security, very common for Police, Fire and First Aid to "look out" for us.  A good thing, imho.

And let me add that my adult in-laws are local LE, my father and uncle are former LE from NJ, and my sisters are CWP holders as well.  Clean criminal/DMV records in the family.

So with that said, I certainly don't know anyone personally that has had such issues on Tribal land in regards to my original post, but to be realistic I don't know anyone personally who's had issues with Animal Cruelty, Arson, Assault, Crime Against Children, Criminal Damage, Criminal Trespass and Burglary, Drug Offense, Failure To Appear, Family Offense, Forgery, Fraud, Homicide, Insurance Violation, Interference With Judicial Process, Kidnapping, Liquor Violation, Offense Against Public Order, Organized Crime, Other (lol), Probation Violation, Professional And Occupational Violation, Robbery, Sex Crime, Theft, Trade And Commerce Violation, Transportation Violation, or Weapons And Explosive arrests.  If anyone I know has, they never told me.  But it does appear to happen a lot more than I'm aware of.  And my LE relatives never took it upon themselves to inform me about those they encountered at work.

https://www.mcso.org/mugshot

Personally, I was not aware of any of the above found on the Maricopa County Sheriff website despite living here.  Would you say this is also true for you?

Given that I know perhaps .00001% of the local population (despite been here almost 17 years), this is probably true for most people as well in their locations.  Unless someone has conducted research into an area in order to find out the specifics, "not hearing about it ever happening" doesn't really say a whole lot if it's not something that was reported in the common news broadcasts/papers in a highly populated area.

Anyway, when I became aware of FOPA and how it could be applied to certain sections of highways I use, I decided to change my routes to avoid any potential issue.

And since I had no evidence to support a claim of "this situation is a problem", I simply approached it from a perspective of "this situation may or may not be a problem for someone unaware."  And given that I'm disabled with a limited income, I would rather spend a little more on fuel than face a non-defensive-shooting potential loss of weapons (given that I always carry two on me, with a third one in the car).  I simply shared the original post so that others who might not be aware of FOPA would now be :)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 03:35:03 pm by Fenderbassist »
ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind. - William Shakespeare

Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams

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    RetroGrouch

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    Re: FOPA and Always Carrying
    « Reply #26 on: November 17, 2016, 01:45:25 pm »
    Out here in AZ not only do some highways run through the reservations, there is one outdoor mall development that is leased from and on Reservation land in the Phoenix area.  We were informed that if we had to draw a concealed weapon there that it would be the reservation police that would respond and their rules would apply.  At the very least you would lose the gun unless you could produce proof of ownership.


    Don't know how things have changed since we went Constitutional carry with open carry now legal.
    Arizona

    Fenderbassist

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    Re: FOPA and Always Carrying
    « Reply #27 on: November 18, 2016, 01:43:38 pm »
    Out here in AZ not only do some highways run through the reservations, there is one outdoor mall development that is leased from and on Reservation land in the Phoenix area.  We were informed that if we had to draw a concealed weapon there that it would be the reservation police that would respond and their rules would apply.  At the very least you would lose the gun unless you could produce proof of ownership.


    Don't know how things have changed since we went Constitutional carry with open carry now legal.

    A very good point and a very good question.
    ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

    Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind. - William Shakespeare

    Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams

    armoredman

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    Re: FOPA and Always Carrying
    « Reply #28 on: November 20, 2016, 08:42:50 pm »
    Retorgrouch open carry had been legal in Az since we became a state over 100 years ago. Concealed carry became legal with restrictions back in 1994 - I had one of the first CCW permits offered. :) Constitutional Carry became law of the land 6 years ago, so I'd say the effect on tribal lands hasn't been enough to reach the newspapers I read.


    Quote from: Fenderbassist
    So with that said, I certainly don't know anyone personally that has had such issues on Tribal land in regards to my original post, but to be realistic I don't know anyone personally who's had issues with Animal Cruelty, Arson, Assault, Crime Against Children, Criminal Damage, Criminal Trespass and Burglary, Drug Offense, Failure To Appear, Family Offense, Forgery, Fraud, Homicide, Insurance Violation, Interference With Judicial Process, Kidnapping, Liquor Violation, Offense Against Public Order, Organized Crime, Other (lol), Probation Violation, Professional And Occupational Violation, Robbery, Sex Crime, Theft, Trade And Commerce Violation, Transportation Violation, or Weapons And Explosive arrests.  If anyone I know has, they never told me.  But it does appear to happen a lot more than I'm aware of.  And my LE relatives never took it upon themselves to inform me about those they encountered at work.

    https://www.mcso.org/mugshot

    Personally, I was not aware of any of the above found on the Maricopa County Sheriff website despite living here.  Would you say this is also true for you?

     I'm sorry, but you made me laugh until my sides hurt with that one.... :clap :D I can say yes to every single one you wrote, amigo - I've been an Arizona Department of Corrections employee for over 15 years now, and yep - met every type of person mentioned above! I've worked Sex Offender, General Population, Medium, Close, and Max Custody, (including the notorious Central Unit where Stir Crazy was filmed), as an officer, sergeant and now a lieutenant! So, yes, I can honestly say I have "had issues" with every type of crime listed above.

    I will agree there are many things that happen in every location that people who are long time residents never see - did you ever go to the excellent Musical Instrument Museum in North Phoenix? I never knew we had one until my best friend dragged me there, had a GREAT time! I'd never had fish and chips at Rula Bula in Tempe, or walked under the Tonto Natural land Bridge either, until I got dragged there. haven't been to Sunset Crater yet, either - it's on the list, now. ;)

    But, from my direct and personal lifelong experience in the Great State of Arizona, I have never had a single incident with tribal police for carrying a firearm on tribal lands. I have also, as stated above, avoided such lands for the reasons stated - I have no business there. :) But certainly I would encourage everyone to be fully informed on legal areas that may or may not affect you - our CCW programs do not inform as well as they could have. Even the Dept off duty firearms training doesn't cover reservations. That's an oversight I am trying to correct.  ;)


    RetroGrouch

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    Re: FOPA and Always Carrying
    « Reply #29 on: November 20, 2016, 09:37:53 pm »
    I knew that Open Carry was legal before Constitutional Carry was passed, guess I just had other thoughts blocking it out.  Like how Constitutional Carry would impact the tribal authorities treatment of non-licensed carriers when stopped for something else. 
    Arizona

    armoredman

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    Re: FOPA and Always Carrying
    « Reply #30 on: November 21, 2016, 07:57:27 pm »
    An excellent point that nobody touched on when it was being debated, and I don't remember hearing any Native American's bringing it up at the time either. Interesting.

    Fenderbassist

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    Re: FOPA and Always Carrying
    « Reply #31 on: November 21, 2016, 09:36:23 pm »
    Retorgrouch open carry had been legal in Az since we became a state over 100 years ago. Concealed carry became legal with restrictions back in 1994 - I had one of the first CCW permits offered. :) Constitutional Carry became law of the land 6 years ago, so I'd say the effect on tribal lands hasn't been enough to reach the newspapers I read.


     I'm sorry, but you made me laugh until my sides hurt with that one.... :clap :D I can say yes to every single one you wrote, amigo - I've been an Arizona Department of Corrections employee for over 15 years now, and yep - met every type of person mentioned above! I've worked Sex Offender, General Population, Medium, Close, and Max Custody, (including the notorious Central Unit where Stir Crazy was filmed), as an officer, sergeant and now a lieutenant! So, yes, I can honestly say I have "had issues" with every type of crime listed above.

    I will agree there are many things that happen in every location that people who are long time residents never see - did you ever go to the excellent Musical Instrument Museum in North Phoenix? I never knew we had one until my best friend dragged me there, had a GREAT time! I'd never had fish and chips at Rula Bula in Tempe, or walked under the Tonto Natural land Bridge either, until I got dragged there. haven't been to Sunset Crater yet, either - it's on the list, now. ;)

    But, from my direct and personal lifelong experience in the Great State of Arizona, I have never had a single incident with tribal police for carrying a firearm on tribal lands. I have also, as stated above, avoided such lands for the reasons stated - I have no business there. :) But certainly I would encourage everyone to be fully informed on legal areas that may or may not affect you - our CCW programs do not inform as well as they could have. Even the Dept off duty firearms training doesn't cover reservations. That's an oversight I am trying to correct.  ;)

    Hi, that's very interesting, regarding your occupation.  Given that information, I can agree that this gives you a much higher level of exposure than I to the criminal elements I listed.

    I did ask if you had direct personal knowledge of those specific posts I linked via the Sheriff website just as an example of how limited each of our personal knowledge is of what crimes occur.  This was to illustrate the unlikelihood of any one person "not having heard of issues with FOPA-related firearm seizures" simply given their time living here, due to the size of this region and the probably lack of reporting such in the news.  Though, perhaps you are in a much better position to "network" to find these things out than a plain citizen such as myself.

    Very cool regarding the local sites and such.  I did have the chance to have real fish and chips at a location in Scottsdale, I wonder if it is owned by the same people.  A friend originally from England took me there 10 or more years ago.  Haven't seen the musical instrument museum.  I don't get around much these days, sadly.

    ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

    Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind. - William Shakespeare

    Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams

    Fenderbassist

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    Re: FOPA and Always Carrying
    « Reply #32 on: November 22, 2016, 01:38:34 am »
    Ack.  I didn't type that clearly.  Let me try to clean that up a bit:

    I did ask if you had direct personal knowledge of those specific posts (arrests) I linked via the Sheriff website just as an example of how limited our knowledge is of what crimes occur.  This was to illustrate the unlikelihood of any one person "not having heard of issues with FOPA-related firearm seizures" being sufficient evidence that such events weren't occurring simply given the person's time living here, due to the size of the Phoenix Valley region and the probably lack of reporting such arrests in the news.  Though, perhaps you are in a much better position to "network" to find these things out than a plain citizen such as myself.

    Awesome that you're actively spreading awareness through your professional connections.

    ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

    Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind. - William Shakespeare

    Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams

    armoredman

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    Re: FOPA and Always Carrying
    « Reply #33 on: November 23, 2016, 12:24:35 pm »
    I don't make arrests, being that I work with the already convicted, so no. I get them after the event. Doesn't stop them from being dangerous - 5 serious staff assaults in the last two weeks, very little media coverage.
    So I would say no, the fact that I don't hear about these events doesn't mean they aren't happening, but I haven't heard of any giant space rats eating the green cheese moon either...well, not since my son grew up.  :D But seriously, no, it could be happening, but instances are at a low level so they remain under the radar of grass roots firearms right groups like AZCDL, which I have been a member of for some years, and I didn't get any teachings of those laws in any firearms classes I took, from the NRA Hunter Safety Course at age ten through DOC CCW training...which IS evolving...slowly.

    BTW, if you have ANY interest at all, I highly recommend the Musical Instrument Museum, really neat.

    http://mim.org/?gclid=CNbNhrayv9ACFQkMaQodsLELgQ

    Fenderbassist

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    Re: FOPA and Always Carrying
    « Reply #34 on: November 23, 2016, 12:27:24 pm »
    Those...rats....are....real!!!!

    Anyway, sounds good.

    I remember my NRA Hunter Safety Course back in NJ when I was 13 :)  Those were good days.

    Ty for the link for the museum, when I'm feeling better and traveling is a bit easier I'll definitely consider it.
    ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

    Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind. - William Shakespeare

    Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams

    armoredman

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    Re: FOPA and Always Carrying
    « Reply #35 on: November 23, 2016, 12:34:39 pm »
     ;) :cool


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