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Author Topic: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations  (Read 7950 times)


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    coelacanth

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #1 on: July 27, 2016, 11:04:13 pm »
    Why am I not surprised by this.   :facepalm
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    TommyGunn

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #2 on: July 28, 2016, 10:48:25 am »
    For those who can't get to the site, how about a short explanation of what this EO does?  :shrug
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    katmandoo

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #3 on: July 28, 2016, 10:56:29 am »
    For those who can't get to the site, how about a short explanation of what this EO does?  :shrug

    On Friday, July 22, just as members of his party were gathering in Philadelphia to coronate Hillary Clinton as their presidential nominee, the Obama Administration once again released a sweeping gun control measure by executive fiat. This time the bad news came via the U.S. State Department’s Directorate of Defense Trade Controls (DDTC), which is primarily responsible for administering the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) and its implementing rules, the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR). The upshot is that DDTC is labeling commercial gunsmiths as “manufacturers” for performing relatively simple work such as threading a barrel or fabricating a small custom part for an older firearm. Under the AECA, “manufactures” are required to register with DDTC at significant expense or risk onerous criminal penalties.
    MinnesotaKevin - Stillwater, MN

    "The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

    Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in Chapter 40 of "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764

    booksmart

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #4 on: July 28, 2016, 12:41:41 pm »
    https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/07/22/executive-order-delegation-certain-authorities-and-assignment-certain

    This is the only Executive Order I'm seeing for 7/22... Not seeing a whole lot about DDTC or ITAR in it...

    JesseL

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #5 on: July 28, 2016, 01:25:54 pm »
    Are executive orders the only way for the executive branch to affect policy changes in its subordinate departments?

    I have no idea whether the Obama administration actually had a direct hand in this policy change by the State Dept, but the buck should stop on the president's desk.
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    katmandoo

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #6 on: July 28, 2016, 02:13:03 pm »
    Are executive orders the only way for the executive branch to affect policy changes in its subordinate departments?

    I have no idea whether the Obama administration actually had a direct hand in this policy change by the State Dept, but the buck should stop on the president's desk.

    this apparently was an "executive action" so it really holds no "legal" weight unless of course the DDTC decides to enact regulation to abide by it (which i imagine they will). 
    MinnesotaKevin - Stillwater, MN

    "The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

    Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in Chapter 40 of "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764

    booksmart

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #7 on: July 28, 2016, 02:50:15 pm »
    http://pmddtc.state.gov/compliance/Applicability%20of%20the%20ITAR%20Registration%20Requirement%20to%20Firearms%20Manufacturers%20(Publish).pdf

    In reading this, it actually appears to be very limited in scope...

    Quote
    ITAR registration is required of persons who engage in the business of manufacturing defense
    articles. Persons who do not actually manufacture {emphasis theirs} ITAR-controlled firearms (including by
    engaging in the activities described below, which DDTC has found in specific cases to constitute
    manufacturing) need not register with DDTC – even if they have an FFL from ATF. As
    indicated above, the requirements for obtaining FFLs under the GCA are separate and distinct
    from the requirement under the AECA and ITAR to register with DDTC.

    Quote
    1. Registration not Required – Not Manufacturing: In response to questions from persons
    engaged in the business of gunsmithing, DDTC has found in specific cases that ITAR
    registration is not required because the following activities do not meet the ordinary,
    contemporary, common meaning of “manufacturing” that DDTC employs in implementing
    the ITAR and, therefore, do not constitute “manufacturing” for ITAR purposes:
    a) Occasional assembly of firearm parts and kits that do not require cutting, drilling, or
    machining;
    b) Firearm repairs involving one-for-one drop-in replacement parts that do not require
    any cutting, drilling, or machining for installation;
    c) Repairs involving replacement parts that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or
    other aspects of firearm operation;
    d) Hydrographic paint or Cerakote application or bluing treatments for a firearm;
    ITAR Registration Requirements – Consolidated Guidance July 22, 2016
    Firearms Manufacturers and Gunsmiths
    3
    e) Attachment of accessories to a completed firearm without drilling, cutting, or
    machining—such as attaching a scope, sling, or light to existing mounts or hooks, or
    attaching a flash suppressor, sound suppressor, muzzle brake, or similar item to a prethreaded
    muzzle;
    f) Cosmetic additions and alterations (including engraving) that do not improve the
    accuracy, caliber, or other aspects of firearm operation beyond its original
    capabilities;
    g) Machining new dovetails or drilling and tapping new holes for the installation of
    sights which do not improve the accuracy or operation of the firearm beyond its
    original capabilities; and
    h) Manual loading or reloading of ammunition of .50 caliber or smaller.

    Activities limited to the domestic sale or resale of firearms, the occasional assembly of
    firearms without drilling, cutting, or machining, and/or specific gunsmithing activities
    that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or operations of the firearm beyond its original
    capabilities (as described above) are not manufacturing within the context of the ITAR {emphasis mine}.
    If you are not manufacturing, exporting, temporarily importing or brokering defense
    articles or services, you are not required to register with DDTC.

    2. Registration Required – Manufacturing: In response to questions from persons engaged
    in the business of gunsmithing, DDTC has found in specific cases that ITAR registration is
    required because the following activities meet the ordinary, contemporary, common
    meaning of “manufacturing” and, therefore, constitute “manufacturing” for ITAR purposes {emphasis mine}:
    a) Use of any special tooling or equipment upgrading in order to improve the capability
    of assembled or repaired firearms;
    b) Modifications to a firearm that change round capacity;
    c) The production of firearm parts (including, but not limited to, barrels, stocks,
    cylinders, breech mechanisms, triggers, silencers, or suppressors);
    d) The systemized production of ammunition, including the automated loading or
    reloading of ammunition;
    e) The machining or cutting of firearms, e.g., threading of muzzles or muzzle brake
    installation requiring machining, that results in an enhanced capability;
    f) Rechambering firearms through machining, cutting, or drilling;
    g) Chambering, cutting, or threading barrel blanks; and
    h) Blueprinting firearms by machining the barrel.
    ITAR Registration Requirements – Consolidated Guidance July 22, 2016
    Firearms Manufacturers and Gunsmiths
    4

    3. Registration Required – Other than Manufacturing:
    a) Assisting foreign persons in the design, development, and repair of firearms may
    constitute the export of a defense service (see 22 CFR § 120.9) and require ITAR
    registration with and authorization from DDTC; and
    b) Exporting a firearm or any other item on the USML requires ITAR registration with
    and authorization from DDTC.
    If, after careful review of this guidance, you are unsure as to whether you are required to register
    with DDTC, you may submit an advisory opinion request (see 22 CFR § 126.9) detailing exactly
    what you do or intend to do with regard to firearms and ammunition. This request should be sent
    in hard copy (services like UPS or FedEx recommended for faster delivery) as indicated on our
    website: http://pmddtc.state.gov/about/contact_information.html.

    katmandoo

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #8 on: July 28, 2016, 02:50:45 pm »
    this apparently was an "executive action" so it really holds no "legal" weight unless of course the DDTC decides to enact regulation to abide by it (which i imagine they will).

    and it appears they did:

    http://pmddtc.state.gov/compliance/Applicability%20of%20the%20ITAR%20Registration%20Requirement%20to%20Firearms%20Manufacturers%20(Publish).pdf

    "...
    1. Registration not Required – Not Manufacturing: In response to questions from persons engaged in the business of gunsmithing, DDTC has found in specific cases that ITAR registration is not required because the following activities do not meet the ordinary, contemporary, common meaning of “manufacturing” that DDTC employs in implementing the ITAR and, therefore, do not constitute "manufacturing” for ITAR purposes:

    a) Occasional assembly of firearm parts and kits that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining;

    b) Firearm repairs involving one-for-one drop-in replacement parts that do not require any cutting, drilling, or machining for installation;

    c) Repairs involving replacement parts that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or other aspects of firearm operation;

    d) Hydrographic paint or Cerakote application or bluing treatments for a firearm;

    e) Attachment of accessories to a completed firearm without drilling, cutting, or machining—such as attaching a scope, sling, or light to existing mounts or hooks, or attaching a flash suppressor, sound suppressor, muzzle brake, or similar item to a prethreaded muzzle;

    f) Cosmetic additions and alterations (including engraving) that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or other aspects of firearm operation beyond its original capabilities;

    g) Machining new dovetails or drilling and tapping new holes for the installation of sights which do not improve the accuracy or operation of the firearm beyond its original capabilities; and

    h) Manual loading or reloading of ammunition of .50 caliber or smaller.

    Activities limited to the domestic sale or resale of firearms, the occasional assembly of firearms without drilling, cutting, or machining, and/or specific gunsmithing activities that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or operations of the firearm beyond its original capabilities (as described above) are not manufacturing within the context of the ITAR.  If you are not manufacturing, exporting, temporarily importing or brokering defense articles or services, you are not required to register with DDTC

    2. Registration Required – Manufacturing: In response to questions from persons engaged in the business of gunsmithing, DDTC has found in specific cases that ITAR registration is required because the following activities meet the ordinary, contemporary, common meaning of “manufacturing” and, therefore, constitute “manufacturing” for ITAR purposes:

    a) Use of any special tooling or equipment upgrading in order to improve the capability of assembled or repaired firearms;

    b) Modifications to a firearm that change round capacity;

    c) The production of firearm parts (including, but not limited to, barrels, stocks, cylinders, breech mechanisms, triggers, silencers, or suppressors);

    d) The systemized production of ammunition, including the automated loading or reloading of ammunition;

    e) The machining or cutting of firearms, e.g., threading of muzzles or muzzle brake installation requiring machining, that results in an enhanced capability;

    f) Rechambering firearms through machining, cutting, or drilling;

    g) Chambering, cutting, or threading barrel blanks; and

    h) Blueprinting firearms by machining the barrel.


    3. Registration Required – Other than Manufacturing:

    a) Assisting foreign persons in the design, development, and repair of firearms may constitute the export of a defense service (see 22 CFR § 120.9) and require ITAR registration with and authorization from DDTC; and

    b) Exporting a firearm or any other item on the USML requires ITAR registration with
    and authorization from DDTC.
    ..."
    MinnesotaKevin - Stillwater, MN

    "The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes....Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

    Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in Chapter 40 of "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764

    JesseL

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #9 on: July 28, 2016, 03:01:32 pm »
    http://pmddtc.state.gov/compliance/Applicability%20of%20the%20ITAR%20Registration%20Requirement%20to%20Firearms%20Manufacturers%20(Publish).pdf

    In reading this, it actually appears to be very limited in scope...


    Read closer:
    Quote
    2. Registration Required – Manufacturing: In response to questions from persons engaged
    in the business of gunsmithing, DDTC has found in specific cases that ITAR registration is
    required because the following activities meet the ordinary, contemporary, common
    meaning of “manufacturing” and, therefore, constitute “manufacturing” for ITAR purposes {emphasis mine}:
    a) Use of any special tooling or equipment upgrading in order to improve the capability
    of assembled or repaired firearms;
    b) Modifications to a firearm that change round capacity;
    c) The production of firearm parts (including, but not limited to, barrels, stocks,
    cylinders, breech mechanisms, triggers, silencers, or suppressors);
    d) The systemized production of ammunition, including the automated loading or
    reloading of ammunition;
    e) The machining or cutting of firearms, e.g., threading of muzzles or muzzle brake
    installation requiring machining
    , that results in an enhanced capability;
    f) Rechambering firearms through machining, cutting, or drilling;
    g) Chambering, cutting, or threading barrel blanks; and
    h) Blueprinting firearms by machining the barrel.

    The highlighted stuff is nothing like manufacturing and it's the bread and butter of thousands of small gunsmiths.

    This stuff has NOTHING to do with international firearms trafficking.

    Either the people who wrote this are grossly ignorant, or they're deliberately trying to stick it to gunsmiths.
    Arizona

    booksmart

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #10 on: July 28, 2016, 03:04:27 pm »
    Somebody rope T in here, have him run it by his coworkers... I'm reading it as performing any of these alterations to a firearm in the course of it being imported in order to (for instance) alter a weapon to make it more marketable in the US...

    JesseL

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #11 on: July 28, 2016, 03:08:30 pm »
    Thernlund is taking a break from forum stuff.

    By my reading though, this requires ITAR registration for anything that's actually gunsmithing. Just a trigger job or installing sling swivels is "Use of any special tooling or equipment upgrading in order to improve the capabilit of assembled or repaired firearms;"

    The stuff that's left only requires an armorer.
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    JesseL

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #12 on: July 28, 2016, 03:11:21 pm »
    Quote
    (a)
    Any  person  who
    engages  in  the  United  States  in  the  business  of  manufacturing
    or
    exporting  or  temporarily  importing  defense  articles,  or  furnishing  defense  services,  is
    required  to  register  with  the  Directorate  of  Defense  Trade  Controls  under  §122.2.  For
    the purpose of th
    is subchapter, engaging in such a business requires only one occasion of
    manufacturing  or  exporting  or  temporarily  importing  a  defense  article  or  furnishing  a
    defense  service.  A  manufacturer  who  does  not  engage  in  exporting  must  nevertheless
    register.

    All the listed stuff is what they consider to be manufacturing.
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    Kaso

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #13 on: July 28, 2016, 03:18:35 pm »
    By my reading though, this requires ITAR registration for anything that's actually gunsmithing. Just a trigger job or installing sling swivels is "Use of any special tooling or equipment upgrading in order to improve the capabilit of assembled or repaired firearms;"

    The stuff that's left only requires an armorer.
    So that being said, when does this go into effect? 

    How will this affect current projects at gunsmiths?
     :scrutiny

    JesseL

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #14 on: July 28, 2016, 03:21:07 pm »
    Legally, it's been in effect for a long time. This is just clarification of how the regs are understood to apply.

    As an 07 FFL, ITAR registration has already been understood to be a requirement for me for a long time.
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    sqlbullet

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #15 on: July 28, 2016, 04:09:10 pm »
    Typical over-reach.

    When are people gonna figure out that stuff generally needs left alone.

    Heaven help the poor gunsmith that properly taps the grip screw hole on an Anderson lower.  He machined the part and enhanced it so it would accept both long and short grip screws.
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    RMc

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #16 on: July 28, 2016, 09:42:57 pm »
    Threading a shotgun barrel for choke tubes is manufacturing?  :o
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    only1asterisk

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #17 on: July 28, 2016, 10:14:34 pm »
    Threading a shotgun barrel for choke tubes is manufacturing?  :o

    Yes.

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #18 on: July 28, 2016, 10:36:28 pm »
    Small specialty gunsmithing shops will suffer:

    "The AECA/ITAR require anybody who engages in the business of “manufacturing” a defense article to register with DDTC and pay a registration fee that for new applicants is currently $2,250 per year. These requirements apply, even if the business does not, and does not intend to, export any defense article. Moreover, under ITAR, “only one occasion of manufacturing … a defense article” is necessary for a commercial entity to be considered “engaged in the business” and therefore subject to the regime’s requirements."

    https://www.nraila.org/articles/20160727/just-in-time-for-his-party-s-convention-obama-administration-releases-latest-executive-gun-control
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    cpaspr

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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #19 on: July 29, 2016, 01:11:11 am »
    Not meaning to cause a thread drift, but:

    Exactly where do presidents get the authority to issue "executive orders"?  And even if they actually have the authority to issue them, I would think they should be limited to the running of the executive branch.  You know, housekeeping sorts of things.  Any executive order that goes outside of the executive branch proper, and impacts "we the people", is beyond the president's authority.
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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #20 on: July 29, 2016, 04:42:38 am »
    why does a State department regulation affect firearms here?
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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #21 on: July 29, 2016, 11:45:36 am »
    This is all much ado about nothing and effects almost no one. 
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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #22 on: July 29, 2016, 11:54:02 am »
    Not meaning to cause a thread drift, but:

    Exactly where do presidents get the authority to issue "executive orders"?  And even if they actually have the authority to issue them, I would think they should be limited to the running of the executive branch.  You know, housekeeping sorts of things.  Any executive order that goes outside of the executive branch proper, and impacts "we the people", is beyond the president's authority.

    Somebody better tell President Obama that before he leaves office ...... :doh :facepalm
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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #23 on: July 29, 2016, 12:07:34 pm »
    This is all much ado about nothing and effects almost no one. 

    I agree. I think.

    My very, very limited understanding of EO's (gained here at WTA in fact) is that EO's only effect the day-to-day functions of the federal government and its minions, not citizens. I don't think they are considered law or enforceable on the public at large except in times of martial law. I don't know of an Assistant US Attorney who would take such a case. Hell, we can hardly get them to take multiple offenses of felon with a firearm so this doesn't seem credible.
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    Re: Excutive order virtually shuts down small gunsmith operations
    « Reply #24 on: July 29, 2016, 01:55:25 pm »
    What this EO pretty much does is enforces "tack on" charges to bigger offences and is used to build a small case into a larger one to either squeeze more money out of the offender or pressure a plea bargain as the smaller charges are "gotcha's."  They aren't going to sweat the smaller gunsmithing operations, but if their bound book is a mess, can't account for firearms, etc. then they'll look harder into their day to day business and if they are found out to install aftermarket triggers or whatever and don't have a manufacturer's license then they will add on that charge.

    When I was working for a shop right after the AWB sunsetted I can't even count the number of AR & AK barrels I personally threaded there and that was well before they got their manufacturer's license.  Once they got that, that is when I went into the building game, and then it was figuring out the excise taxes and whatnot.  The joys of going legit as they say just so "The Man" can get theirs.
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