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Author Topic: An important element of shooting skill?  (Read 4678 times)

Plebian

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Re: An important element of shooting skill?
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2019, 11:02:18 am »
We do not say an accomplished violinist, a race car driver or a fighter pilot has developed "muscle memory."  Yet the skills developed by an accomplished shootist of any discipline should attributed to "muscle memory?"

The skills listed there are many times called 'feel' does that denigrate those actions as well? Violinist felt the piece, the race car driver felt good in his car and was feeling on that day, the fighter pilot had the feel of the plane etc etc.

This whole idea you are putting forward feels a bit snowflaky to me. Many sports use the term 'muscle memory'. It seems pretty simple to conclude sport shooting would also use the term.

This whole line of thought seems incredibly similar to when eastern martial arts pedants keep 'correcting' someone to use gyaku ude-garami instead of Kimura for the 'double wrist lock' used in grappling.

You can take offense to these things, but it just makes you seem like an oversensitive snowflake.
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    MTK20

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #26 on: February 02, 2019, 12:01:11 pm »
    The skills listed there are many times called 'feel' does that denigrate those actions as well? Violinist felt the piece, the race car driver felt good in his car and was feeling on that day, the fighter pilot had the feel of the plane etc etc.

    This whole idea you are putting forward feels a bit snowflaky to me. Many sports use the term 'muscle memory'. It seems pretty simple to conclude sport shooting would also use the term.

    This whole line of thought seems incredibly similar to when eastern martial arts pedants keep 'correcting' someone to use gyaku ude-garami instead of Kimura for the 'double wrist lock' used in grappling.

    You can take offense to these things, but it just makes you seem like an oversensitive snowflake.

    I'm going to have to look that up, as it peaks my curiosity.

    If you are achieving the desired end result through shooting, driving, etc and doing so safely, then the rest of the argument really feels like a "don't sweat the small stuff" situation to me  :shrug .
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    coelacanth

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #27 on: February 02, 2019, 01:16:12 pm »
    Thank you for a reasoned response.
     
    I agree that "automaticity" is not likely to become part of the shooting vernacular.  However, as I expected "muscle memory" quickly became part of the conversation.  This is where I must disagree.

    As already noted "muscle memory" is not used during the learning phase of any other complex skill or talent - from driving, to the violin and so on.
    Frankly, I believe the phrase is not used with other skill sets because it is inherently misleading.

    I believe your well phrased line - with one slight modification - neatly sums up what we are trying to accomplish.

    "It means that the mental and physical aspects of it are seamlessly joined into the ability to perform a complex set of actions {largely} without having to think through every step involved." 

    This frees the mind to focus on the immediate problem, task or performance at hand.

    Perhaps a new term or phrase is in order.       Suggestions?





    You're welcome.  Again, I disagree that muscle memory does not describe what is happening.  I understand your objection to the term as it has come to mean different things to different people but the fact remains that motor skills - particularly ones relating to highly specialized and complex activities - are learned both by the mind and by the neurons, muscles and tendons responsible for performing those activities. 

    The old adage about never forgetting how to ride a bicycle applies here.  We begin to establish adult level motor skills from the time we begin to learn how to walk and then how to run and then how to perform other specialized activities.  Some of us even learn how to walk and chew gum simultaneously  :cool .   At any rate, the more repetitive the activity the more those neural pathways are reinforced and the more the muscles and tendons adapt to the required level of that activity.   You cannot easily separate all the things happening simultaneously into neat little compartments each with its own specific term - or so it seems to me.   :hmm

    I guess automaticity is as good a word as any and if it makes you feel better I promise to try and use it in a sentence at least once a day for the next week . . .  :neener  . . .  but to my way of thinking muscle memory is a more intuitive description for most folks even if it lacks precision. 
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    RMc

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #28 on: February 02, 2019, 11:15:38 pm »
    The skills listed there are many times called 'feel' does that denigrate those actions as well? Violinist felt the piece, the race car driver felt good in his car and was feeling on that day, the fighter pilot had the feel of the plane etc etc.

    This whole idea you are putting forward feels a bit snowflaky to me. Many sports use the term 'muscle memory'. It seems pretty simple to conclude sport shooting would also use the term.

    This whole line of thought seems incredibly similar to when eastern martial arts pedants keep 'correcting' someone to use gyaku ude-garami instead of Kimura for the 'double wrist lock' used in grappling.

    You can take offense to these things, but it just makes you seem like an oversensitive snowflake.

    One of the things I most enjoy about We The Armed is the willingness of the members to engage in constructive discussion - abeit with humorous and entertaining overtones.

    I take no offense when the dust settles and we agree to disagree.   

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    coelacanth

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #29 on: February 02, 2019, 11:19:02 pm »
    See?  Now we're back to agreeing again .  .  .   :cool
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    LowKey

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #30 on: February 03, 2019, 05:13:43 am »
    Okay, how about we toss out the commonly recognized and understood vernacular "muscle memory" as well as the less well recognized "Automaticity" in favor of the more cumbersome phrase,"practiced until it was a reflexive action".   :facepalm

    RMc

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #31 on: February 03, 2019, 07:49:15 am »
    Okay, how about we toss out the commonly recognized and understood vernacular "muscle memory" as well as the less well recognized "Automaticity" in favor of the more cumbersome phrase,"practiced until it was a reflexive action".   :facepalm

    It wouldn't work.

    Someone would still complain!

    Why?
     
    Because they'd whine about not being able to blame missed targets on forgetful muscles!

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    Chief45

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #32 on: February 04, 2019, 10:37:37 am »
    brings to mind a quote from, , somewhere, , ,

    Amateurs practice until they get it right.
    Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.



     
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