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Author Topic: An important element of shooting skill?  (Read 5163 times)

RMc

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An important element of shooting skill?
« on: January 29, 2019, 11:18:03 am »
Automaticity? 



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    NukMed

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #1 on: January 29, 2019, 11:45:09 am »
    What's "automaticity?" :shrug
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    freeman1685

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #2 on: January 29, 2019, 04:16:38 pm »
    Good question.  Maybe another term for muscle memory? :shrug
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    MTK20

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #3 on: January 29, 2019, 04:26:01 pm »
    I think Automaticity is the brand name of the device/software that Jerry Miculek has installed in his index finger. Very good product  :neener .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    sqlbullet

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #4 on: January 29, 2019, 05:11:52 pm »
    Five dollar word for muscle memory.  Can be applied to more complex things as well.
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    MTK20

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #5 on: January 29, 2019, 05:46:41 pm »
    For reflexive sight picture, yes, muscle memory is big. The angle and hold for a quick sight picture with my Sig is different from my Glock or any other gun for that matter.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    freeman1685

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #6 on: January 29, 2019, 07:39:08 pm »
    Automaticity?

    So, where is this coming from, anyway?
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    coelacanth

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #7 on: January 29, 2019, 10:22:09 pm »
    Five dollar word for muscle memory.  Can be applied to more complex things as well.

    This ^ . 

    For reflexive sight picture, yes, muscle memory is big. The angle and hold for a quick sight picture with my Sig is different from my Glock or any other gun for that matter.

    The aggregate of things we refer to as "shooting skills" still underpins your performance with any firearm.  You use your knowledge and experience and adjust for variables to the degree you are able in order to gain the desired result. 

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    Chief45

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #8 on: January 30, 2019, 10:17:21 am »
    well heck.   why not just say.    PRACTICE.




    Keep It Specific Somehow.

     :D

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    sqlbullet

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #9 on: January 30, 2019, 11:32:06 am »
    well heck.   why not just say.    PRACTICE.

    Keep It Specific Somehow.

     :D


    Exactly.

    A year or two ago my second son was practicing for a piano recital.  He had been working on the pieces with all the enthusiasm of a typical 13 year old boy for several weeks.  Finally a day or two before the performance he played one of the pieces from beginning to end more or less correctly.  I told him at that point, he was finally able to START practicing.  All the weeks of work up to that point were to learn how to practice the song, now he was ready to start his month of practice to be ready to perform the song.

    Same for us.  I see too many people at the range (and often in my bathroom mirror) that put effort into a skill until they do it right once.  All that effort to do it right once is to prepare you to practice.  Then you need to do it another 10,000 times to master it.  And the skills are perishable.

    The martial arts masters of old said 1,000 reps to learn it, 3,000 more to actually use it, and 10,000 more to master it.  I don't know how accurate those counts are, but I do agree that learning and mastering are very different.  And automaticity is mastery to the point you can do it without cognitive effort.
    Utah

    coelacanth

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #10 on: January 30, 2019, 12:19:19 pm »
    Sounds about right to me. 
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    Plebian

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #11 on: January 30, 2019, 05:12:07 pm »
    Exactly.

    A year or two ago my second son was practicing for a piano recital.  He had been working on the pieces with all the enthusiasm of a typical 13 year old boy for several weeks.  Finally a day or two before the performance he played one of the pieces from beginning to end more or less correctly.  I told him at that point, he was finally able to START practicing.  All the weeks of work up to that point were to learn how to practice the song, now he was ready to start his month of practice to be ready to perform the song.

    Same for us.  I see too many people at the range (and often in my bathroom mirror) that put effort into a skill until they do it right once.  All that effort to do it right once is to prepare you to practice.  Then you need to do it another 10,000 times to master it.  And the skills are perishable.

    The martial arts masters of old said 1,000 reps to learn it, 3,000 more to actually use it, and 10,000 more to master it.  I don't know how accurate those counts are, but I do agree that learning and mastering are very different.  And automaticity is mastery to the point you can do it without cognitive effort.

    I know for Jiu-Jitsu especially and combat sports in general automaticity creeps up slowly into most common actions. Once you get common sweeps or passes down it is actually pretty hard to break it down into the step by step method in which you learned it.

    My grandfather always told me 'Once you stop thinking about punching and movement is when boxing starts.'
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    RMc

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #12 on: February 01, 2019, 12:02:05 am »
    Five dollar word for muscle memory.  Can be applied to more complex things as well.

    Do you drive a car by "muscle memory?"
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    coelacanth

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #13 on: February 01, 2019, 12:19:55 am »
    The people who do it while texting on their phones apparently do .  .  .   :coffee
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    MTK20

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #14 on: February 01, 2019, 02:00:25 am »
    Do you drive a car by "muscle memory?"

    Only when it's a muscle car  :neener .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Plebian

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #15 on: February 01, 2019, 10:31:43 am »
    Do you drive a car by "muscle memory?"

    You operate the vehicle by muscle memory for sure, or at least it does so for me. I change gears in standard transmission vehicles pretty much on auto pilot. I assume most folks are the same.

    I may be thinking about the higher order functions of watching some dumb dumb two cars back, preparing to merge for the exit and shooting the breeze with someone in the vehicle, but I am not concentrating on the act of changing gears or applying pedal pressure on the brakes.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    Mikee5star

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #16 on: February 01, 2019, 09:49:35 pm »
    Do you drive a car by "muscle memory?"

    I have "woken up" while driving and have no memory of the previous 100 miles. 
    Alaska

    MTK20

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #17 on: February 01, 2019, 10:13:54 pm »
    I have "woken up" while driving and have no memory of the previous 100 miles.

    I frequently hear that regarding the drive between work and home. "I was there and I blinked and now I'm here". And they have no memory of the between.

    I've experienced that myself a few times too. I think everyone has.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    RMc

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #18 on: February 01, 2019, 10:50:56 pm »
    You operate the vehicle by muscle memory for sure, or at least it does so for me. I change gears in standard transmission vehicles pretty much on auto pilot. I assume most folks are the same.

    I may be thinking about the higher order functions of watching some dumb dumb two cars back, preparing to merge for the exit and shooting the breeze with someone in the vehicle, but I am not concentrating on the act of changing gears or applying pedal pressure on the brakes.

    Methinks the learning is not in your muscles—it’s in your head.
    Alabama

    freeman1685

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #19 on: February 01, 2019, 11:07:48 pm »
    There are a great many activities, that involve what we refer to as "muscle memory."  Repetitive actions, like touch typing, driving (when's the last time you had to look for the gas/brake/clutch pedals?), shooting, become muscle memory.  :coffee
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    LowKey

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #20 on: February 01, 2019, 11:27:26 pm »
    Do you drive a car by "muscle memory?"
    Muscle memory is shorthand for any task or skill that you have performed so many times that it has become reflexive. 
    While not accurate in a literal sense, it is accurate in the figurative, as it is used in the common vernacular.  :shrug

    MTK20

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #21 on: February 01, 2019, 11:39:36 pm »
    :popcorn
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    RMc

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #22 on: February 02, 2019, 02:21:42 am »
    The ubiquitous popcorn bag has now appeared!

    This reminds me of a line from the 1984 science fiction movie The Philadelphia Experiment.
    There a sailor from the USS Eldridge of 1943 suddenly finds himself in 1984.  The line: "Where the hell's the clutch?" uttered while trying to steal a car.


    Automaticity:

    "The ability to do things without occupying the mind with the low level details required."

    We do not say an accomplished violinist, a race car driver or a fighter pilot has developed "muscle memory."  Yet the skills developed by an accomplished shootist of any discipline should attributed to "muscle memory?"   

    It seems to me the unfortunate common vernacular "muscle memory" denegrates the mental dicipline and practice needed to excel in the shooting sports.





                                                       





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    coelacanth

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #23 on: February 02, 2019, 02:44:31 am »
    Well, shooting disciplines frequently require the combination of gross motor control, fine motor control and target recognition either simultaneously or in rapid sequence so I think the term "muscle memory" certainly applies to part of it.   I guess you can use the term automaticity if you want to but the chances of having to explain it are considerably greater than if you had used the term "muscle memory", no? 

    Muscle memory for a shooter is probably best typified by a consistent trigger squeeze and focusing on the front sight rather than the target or the rear sight.  Grabbing a reload would probably also fit into that category as would holstering a pistol without looking at the holster. 

    None of that means there is no mental activity involved.  It means that the mental and physical aspects of it are seamlessly joined into the ability to perform a complex set of actions largely without having to think through every step involved.  It is very much the same kind of thing required in your other examples of the violinist and the race car driver and the fighter pilot.  I think the neural pathways necessary for these activities are reinforced by constant repetition and self critique until they become dominant behavior patterns.   :hmm
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    RMc

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    Re: An important element of shooting skill?
    « Reply #24 on: February 02, 2019, 07:48:42 am »
    Well, shooting disciplines frequently require the combination of gross motor control, fine motor control and target recognition either simultaneously or in rapid sequence so I think the term "muscle memory" certainly applies to part of it.   I guess you can use the term automaticity if you want to but the chances of having to explain it are considerably greater than if you had used the term "muscle memory", no? 

    Muscle memory for a shooter is probably best typified by a consistent trigger squeeze and focusing on the front sight rather than the target or the rear sight.  Grabbing a reload would probably also fit into that category as would holstering a pistol without looking at the holster. 

    None of that means there is no mental activity involved.  It means that the mental and physical aspects of it are seamlessly joined into the ability to perform a complex set of actions largely without having to think through every step involved.  It is very much the same kind of thing required in your other examples of the violinist and the race car driver and the fighter pilot.  I think the neural pathways necessary for these activities are reinforced by constant repetition and self critique until they become dominant behavior patterns.   :hmm

    Thank you for a reasoned response.
     
    I agree that "automaticity" is not likely to become part of the shooting vernacular.  However, as I expected "muscle memory" quickly became part of the conversation.  This is where I must disagree.

    As already noted "muscle memory" is not used during the learning phase of any other complex skill or talent - from driving, to the violin and so on.
    Frankly, I believe the phrase is not used with other skill sets because it is inherently misleading.

    I believe your well phrased line - with one slight modification - neatly sums up what we are trying to accomplish.

    "It means that the mental and physical aspects of it are seamlessly joined into the ability to perform a complex set of actions {largely} without having to think through every step involved." 

    This frees the mind to focus on the immediate problem, task or performance at hand.

    Perhaps a new term or phrase is in order.       Suggestions?




    « Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 08:01:40 am by RMc »
    Alabama

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