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Author Topic: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ  (Read 12284 times)

Harm

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A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
« on: July 08, 2010, 12:05:35 pm »
http://www.cbjtech.com/sida.asp?sida=2_6.5x25%20CBJ

Basically a necked down 9mm shell, sabot round putting out a LOT of horsepower. 

The Firearm Blog has pics
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/07/08/the-amazing-6-5x25mm-cbj/

Now that penetration shot is impressive but it is with a penetrator round and they don't clarify what rounds they used for the 7.62 or the 5.56.
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    JD

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    Re: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
    « Reply #1 on: July 08, 2010, 05:19:11 pm »
     Color me interested.  >:D

    FMJ

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    Re: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
    « Reply #2 on: July 10, 2010, 03:20:39 am »
    Now imagine what happens when you modify a PPSh-41 for this cartridge...

    Color me interested.  >:D
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    Harm

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    Re: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
    « Reply #3 on: July 10, 2010, 03:23:24 am »
    Now imagine what happens when you modify a PPSh-41 for this cartridge...


    meh.   The PPSh isn't that awesome.  It's a great historical weapon no doubt and I for sure wouldn't want to be facing one, but I'd much rather have a proprietary weapon system built around it that is ergonomic and customizable.  I could see something like the KAC PDW.
    http://www.knightarmco.com/pdw.html

    Only smaller.  Yes that would give Harm just the right amount of giggles.
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    Re: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
    « Reply #4 on: July 10, 2010, 03:30:26 am »
    Dude, that's sick

    I like the AKS style wire stock on it. Looks good.


    But what the Pa-Pa-Sha has going for it is its simplicity and reliability.  And they got s___ done.  Maybe I'll design a modern interpretation of one when I figure out how to use CAD.  (Signed up for a course at the JC in the fall).
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    Harm

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    Re: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
    « Reply #5 on: July 10, 2010, 03:37:50 am »
    Scottsdale Gun Club has or had a FA PPSh-41.  Like I said it was cool.  But it was big, unbalanced and bulky.  But as you mention, it got the job done.  I think a modern interp could be cool.  But as it stands I don't see an issue leaving the 7.62x25.  Its must cheaper than, at least what is currently a novelty round. 
    ArizonaIn Deo Confido

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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
    « Reply #6 on: July 10, 2010, 03:58:40 am »
    I, too, have got some trigger time with a real-deal PPSH.  It's longer and heavier than many of the compact Kalashnikov variants and is, from a utilitarian standpoint, inferior in every way.   Plus the erognomics suck.  Frankly, the only reason it was employed in World War II was the same reason we employed the Thompson: the design was there at the beginning of the war.

    As for the 6.5 whatever pistol cartridge.  Interesting.  I'd like to see some independent testing of its penetration capabilities.  If it's legit, I'd be more interested in seeing what happens when you scale up that kind of round into something in the size class of .223 and .308 weapons.  Current generation ceramic plates can stop multiple hits of .30-06 AP.  If new bullet designs can beat the best Level IV plates, then we're getting somewhere.
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    Harm

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    Re: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
    « Reply #7 on: July 10, 2010, 04:13:02 am »
    I, too, have got some trigger time with a real-deal PPSH.  It's longer and heavier than many of the compact Kalashnikov variants and is, from a utilitarian standpoint, inferior in every way.   Plus the erognomics suck.  Frankly, the only reason it was employed in World War II was the same reason we employed the Thompson: the design was there at the beginning of the war.

    that.  Interesting historical piece.  Hell of a lot of fun.  But not much for a modern weapon.  Just as the Thompson was phased out for the M3 "Grease Gun".  Part of the problem IMHO is use of TOO MUCH wood.  Most stocks can be trimmed MUCH more than they are.  Especially the neck of the grip/pistol grip.  Those parts can be much thinner, especially in a sub gun. 

    As for the 6.5 whatever pistol cartridge.  Interesting.  I'd like to see some independent testing of its penetration capabilities.  If it's legit, I'd be more interested in seeing what happens when you scale up that kind of round into something in the size class of .223 and .308 weapons.  Current generation ceramic plates can stop multiple hits of .30-06 AP.  If new bullet designs can beat the best Level IV plates, then we're getting somewhere.

    NC - like I said I wonder if that was a regular 308 round and a regular 5.56 versus an AP version of this 6.5 round.  I know that Sabot's offer a lot in terms of power though and they are very much NOT looked at currently, perhaps a shortened .308 cartridge running a necked down sabot 6.5 round?  that could be very interesting, yet still maintaining some good weight to the projectile.  Of course it would also impact cost as well, but a well designed Sabot could deliver the AR magazine size everyone seems to be looking for with an interesting step in the power curve. 
    ArizonaIn Deo Confido

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    Nightcrawler

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    Re: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
    « Reply #8 on: July 10, 2010, 05:17:05 am »
    Again with the 6.5.  Why don't you just marry 6.5mm since you love it so much?

     :neener

    I think a 6.5mm penetrator would have to have a larger parent bullet than .308.  Note that this 6.5mm's penetrator is actually 4.5mm in diameter.  You need a couple milimeters of sabot sheath.  But they have .308 sabot rounds.  Hell, the have .308 SLAP, HEI, and even explosive rounds, but the're not issued very often (probably due to ammunition costs and lack of a perceived need).

    I can't find any data on the performance of these rounds, though.  I don't think the .308 SLAP was ever fielded in any large quantity.

    I think if you wanted a 6-6.5mm penetrator you'd have to have around an 8mm bore diameter.  If the sabot sheath is too thin it'll break up in the barrel (which, I believe, was one of the problems wiht 7.62x51 SLAP).  

    Imagine, if we'll delve into a little science fiction, an 8mm cartridge with a non-metallic (and obviously non-reloadable) case.  The catridge could have a recessed bullet like some of the designs they experimented with, making it a little thicker than a .308 round but also a little bit shorter.  No matter, put it in a three or four column fat magazine to keep the capacity up.  It fires a 6.5mm tungsten carbide bullet at some crazy high velocity and will probably zip through any currently issued ceramic plates without problems.  THe high velocity and heavy bullet weight give it very long range, too, making it effective for heavy rifles, sharpshooter rifles, and machine guns.  A wide variety of ammunition types can be devised, including full bore diameter heavy slugs for purposes that call for that.

    Probably a bit on the big side for your average troopy though.  So we scale it down.  The goal is something with a cartridge size comparible to the current crop of intermediate rounds that can be used in a comparable, select-fire weapon.  So we start with a 6.5-7mm parent bore diameter.  The actual projectile is between 4.5 and 5.5mm in diameter, depending on how thin a sabot jacket we can get away with.  The penetrator would obviously be smaller than the large "battle rifle" round, but with the lighter weight you could probably squeeze a little more velocity out of it.  (Some good barrels are going to be necessary to prevent them from being burned up.)  Recoil would be light and it'd be flat shooting, moreso than 5.56mm and with better penetration of both cover and armor.

    Obviously, it wouldn't have any of 5.56mm's magical fragmentation that only happens in people and never happens in armor or cover (this allows 5.56mm to simultaenously out penetrate and penetrate less than .308.  Like I said, it's magic.  Just ask ARFCOM.) unless you designed a frangible round to do that (but you'd also have the option of using full-caliber jacketed hollow point rounds at lower velocities if better terminal ballistics was required.)  But at the velocities possible, there's going to be a lot of kinetic trauma regardless of fragmentation, tumbling, or any of the other internet buzzwords.

    Not sure how feasible any of this is, just thinking out loud.  In a gunfight with these types of weapons, though, you'd better be very careful about what you choose to hide behind.
    « Last Edit: July 10, 2010, 06:07:54 am by Nightcrawler »
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    Harm

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    Re: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
    « Reply #9 on: July 10, 2010, 01:38:32 pm »
    NC not married to the 6.5 at all.  I used 6.5 since that is the name or designation of this cartridge WITH the sabot.  My thought was necking the 308 down to 6.5 would just be a little bit, nothing to serious, and then a smaller sabot inside.  Guess I should have clarified but since that was the tech behind this cartridge 9mm necked down to 6.5 with a smaller sabot round I figured it was kind of obvious.  my bad. 

    I think using something like this though in a shorted .308 necked down to whatever figure with a sabot round could have a LOT of potential for power. 

    My biggest fantasy I guess would be cutting down a .308 shell and then necking it for a sabot so the overall length could fit within an AR-15 magwell.  Giving greater power and reach without the extra size and weight of an AR-10 platform. Due to the .308 base you'd end up losing rounds in the magazine but not enough to whine about I think.  Then you can fit the barrel and upper to needs of the mission.  Of course then you end up messing with the bolt head in the AR-15 and I keep hearing how crazy that is so I expect this would probably end up looking like frankensteins stoner rifle.  An AR-10 bolt married to an expanded AR-15 upper on a regular AR-15 lower.  Heh the bizzarro world qualities of it intrigue me.   ;D
    ArizonaIn Deo Confido

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    mnw42

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    Re: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
    « Reply #10 on: July 10, 2010, 02:43:58 pm »
    I'd be happy to see some new guns in 7.62x25/.30 Mauser
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    Re: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
    « Reply #11 on: July 10, 2010, 03:39:33 pm »
    My biggest fantasy I guess would be cutting down a .308 shell and then necking it for a sabot so the overall length could fit within an AR-15 magwell. 
    Not to sidetrack this thread...
    But I am not very familiar with the AR platform.
    Is there currently a round that is a .223 necked up to .30 for use in the ARs?


    Jim
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    JesseL

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    Re: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
    « Reply #12 on: July 10, 2010, 04:17:40 pm »
    Not to sidetrack this thread...
    But I am not very familiar with the AR platform.
    Is there currently a round that is a .223 necked up to .30 for use in the ARs?


    Jim

    The first one that comes to mind is the .300 Whisper (which is actually a necked up .221 fireball - same cartridge family though).

    It's intended to launch high BC 240gr bullets at subsonic velocities, but with lighter bullets it can closely match 7.62x39 performance.
    Arizona

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    Re: A modern 7.62x25 = 6.5x25 CBJ
    « Reply #13 on: July 10, 2010, 04:23:19 pm »
    Yea, I have heard of the whisper.
    I have been thinking about a semi auto rifle for a while and highly prefer a .30 caliber cartridge.
    I know the aftermarket is geared towards the AR so it got me wondering.


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