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Author Topic: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly  (Read 12760 times)

RMc

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200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
« on: October 12, 2019, 04:13:07 pm »
 :eh

800+ pound grizzly stopped with the ballistic equivalent of a 44 Henry  rimfire from a rifle!      :coffee


https://www.ammoland.com/2019/10/alaskans-stop-grizzly-bear-charge-with-glock-10mm-on-elmendorf-richardson/#axzz61zXRCBGZ

https://hsmammunition.com/bear-load/
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    Mikee5star

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #1 on: October 12, 2019, 05:09:02 pm »
    This is why my woods back up carry is G29, with hot loaded heavy cast bullets.  Shotgun with slugs or 45-70/450 marlin being greatly preferred in those situations.  Also the article lays out the reasons why I personally question the ethics of bow hunting.

    Also this is popping up all over the place again despite being from 13 months ago.
    Alaska

    RMc

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #2 on: October 12, 2019, 07:20:54 pm »
    It would seem that any news of Alaska that is less than sensational or tragic, travels very slowly to the lower 48. 
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    Plebian

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #3 on: October 14, 2019, 01:18:12 am »
    Also the article lays out the reasons why I personally question the ethics of bow hunting.

    What reason is laid out in the article for questioning the ethics of bow hunting?
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    Mikee5star

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #4 on: October 14, 2019, 10:37:23 pm »
    They hit one animal and it was not a good hit, bounced off a rib IIRC.  Then he shot another animal and could or would not finish tracking it until the next day.  Dark is not an excuse in my opinion, be prepared or don't hunt.  The bear they killed had claimed the kill and buried it.  There is no mention if the bear finished off the moose, or if it found the moose dead.

    The idea of shooting at an animal, injuring it and then going on and shooting at another animal is just wrong to me.  I know that losing animals is a part of hunting, but it sure seems that I hear more of those stories from bow hunters vs clean kills.  A moose is a huge animal to be hunting with a bow.  Personally I want my meat without a big adrenaline dump in it.
    Alaska

    coelacanth

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #5 on: October 16, 2019, 01:15:55 am »
    Umm .  .  .  unless you are privvy to different information than was reported in the Ammoland article in the OP I don't understand what you're talking about.  According to that article there was only one animal shot by the hunter.  It was shot once but the wound was not lethal and the animal moved off.  The hunter followed and stalked to withing bow shot range and shot the animal again - this time a double lung, through shot that left a significant blood trail.  The blood trail was lost after darkness fell and the decision was made to resume tracking the animal the next morning. 

    There are ways to spot a blood trail after dark - in some terrain, if its a clear blood trail.   Whether its advisable to do so depends on the circumstances involved and neither of us were there so while we may have an opinion we are forced to rely on the judgement of those who were on the ground at the time.  Following a blood trail to a kill, after dark, in grizzly bear country, in September when the bears are actively foraging to pack on weight in preparation for hibernation, doesn't strike me as a good idea.   Field dressing an animal the size of a moose - even a smallish one - is a big job and demands your full attention.  For quite a while. 

    If a bear smells that kill and approaches you in the dark, unseen, until it is right on top of you before it attacks and tries to claim that kill - that is well into the category of an unacceptably high risk.  IMO. 

    We can debate the wisdom of taking a shot at an animal at 6:30 pm - knowing that even if you make a killing shot you will have to track that animal and may not be able to find it before darkness falls.  I don't think I would have made that decision but again, I am not familiar with all the circumstances.  Their actions after the animal had been fatally shot seem reasonable and ethical to me given what information I have at the moment.  The fact that the bear found the moose and either finished it off or just claimed the fresh kill and set about burying it is a fact of life that may or may not have been affected by the hour of the day or even the presence of hunters in the area that may have been searching for it.

    I hate losing an animal and I also don't like an animal that has been poorly shot, run to death over half the state before it succumbs and is finally field dressed and packed out.  Your aversion to adrenalin laced meat is one I share.  Still, to me, bow hunting is as close to experiencing what our ancestors experienced during their lives as we can get and I can understand the urge to hunt that way.  Yes, moose are large animals but larger animals still have fallen to the combination of hunting skills and primitive weapons over the last few millennia.  Losing an animal shot with an arrow is no better or worse than losing one shot with a modern hunting bullet.  At least the bow hunter is close enough to his/her prey to see the hit and mark the spot where the blood trail starts and begin tracking as soon as is practical.  That is often not the case with the rifle hunter who takes a questionable shot at 400+ yards and can't tell if the animal is DRT or bolted and must be tracked.  It can often take an hour or more to even find the beginning of a blood trail under those circumstances.  Just my $.02 worth.  YMMV.   
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    sqlbullet

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #6 on: October 16, 2019, 10:16:34 am »
    Getting back to the idea of the post...10mm light/44 Henry level ballistics for Grizzly.

    I gotta say I view this as an anecdote, not evidence that a 10mm is an appropriate choice for Grizzle country.  Especially weak 200 grain loads.

    I love 10mm as much as anyone, maybe more.  I have seven spread across Witness, 1911, 1911A2(HC) and Glock.  But it is questionable for this purpose.

    Advantages are capacity and control which increase the probability of a good CNS hit.  But penetration if you don't get the right shot/angle may put you in the ground instead of an aggressive bear.
    Utah

    Mikee5star

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #7 on: October 16, 2019, 11:07:59 am »
    Umm .  .  .  unless you are privvy to different information.  It can often take an hour or more to even find the beginning of a blood trail under those circumstances.  Just my $.02 worth.  YMMV.   

    You are correct, he only shot at one animal.  I miss read/remembered. Mea Culpa.  It take 4-6 hours for two guys to field dress a moose, even longer depending on location, brush, darkness ect.  If you are hunting in brown bear country, it is critical that you deal with your moose quickly or you risk losing a large portion of the meat.  Even if you don't have a run in with a large carnivore protecting its kill, any meat touched by the bears claws or teeth needs to be cut out due to the bacteria carried as Brownies seem to prefer their meat well aged.

    Getting back to the idea of the post...10mm light/44 Henry level ballistics for Grizzly.
    I gotta say I view this as an anecdote, not evidence that a 10mm is an appropriate choice for Grizzle country.  Especially weak 200 grain loads.
    I love 10mm as much as anyone, maybe more.  I have seven spread across Witness, 1911, 1911A2(HC) and Glock.  But it is questionable for this purpose.
    Advantages are capacity and control which increase the probability of a good CNS hit.  But penetration if you don't get the right shot/angle may put you in the ground instead of an aggressive bear.

    I agree that a 200gr bullet at 1050fps is not super hot, especially as the .357mag is advertised at 180gr at 1200fps.  In the situation described I would strongly suggest a hot 45-70 or a shotgun with slugs for the guy in front at the least.  That said, the gun you have is better than the gun at home or in the vehicle.  The gun and ammo was adequate, barely.  But this is true of any hand gun against even a mid sized brownie as described.
    Alaska

    RMc

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #8 on: October 16, 2019, 02:35:47 pm »

    I agree that a 200gr bullet at 1050fps is not super hot, especially as the .357mag is advertised at 180gr at 1200fps.  In the situation described I would strongly suggest a hot 45-70 or a shotgun with slugs for the guy in front at the least.  That said, the gun you have is better than the gun at home or in the vehicle.  The gun and ammo was adequate, barely.  But this is true of any hand gun against even a mid sized brownie as described.

    Any shotgun slug?

    The slug remnants shown below were recovered from a Whitetail doe taken at approximately 20 yards with a 3" Remington one ounce "hollow point" rifled slug.  The three inch Remington Slugger is rated at 1700 fps from an industry standard 30 inch test barrel.

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    Mikee5star

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #9 on: October 16, 2019, 10:34:13 pm »
    I stoked my shotty with Brenneke black magic magnums.  These are advertised as a 1 3/8 oz at 1500 fps at the muzzle.  I use them because they are NOT a hollow point.  I do also have several boxes of Winchester super x, 1 oz at 1600 fps.  They shot nice, but are hollow points so penetration would be questionable.
    Alaska

    Plebian

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #10 on: October 17, 2019, 01:21:08 pm »
    The idea of shooting at an animal, injuring it and then going on and shooting at another animal is just wrong to me.  I know that losing animals is a part of hunting, but it sure seems that I hear more of those stories from bow hunters vs clean kills.  A moose is a huge animal to be hunting with a bow.  Personally I want my meat without a big adrenaline dump in it.

    If I am hunting for meat I tend to wish to bowhunt the animal as it bleeds out most times and doesn't have a big adrenaline dump like taking one with a heart/lung shot does with a firearm.

    I also rarely hear about stories of bowhunters injuring animals and leaving them. It is almost completely rifle hunters that do things like that from my experience. Typically bowhunters are the more driven hunters here with the most control and time in the field. Where many 'questionable' people rifle hunt.

    It may be the difference in area or just in experiences, but I tend to find bowhunters overall more ethical hunters in general. Also the general experience of many farmers and ranchers here bear that out. It is much easier to get folks to agree to let you bow hunt than rifle hunt from my experience.

    I have only taken one moose with a bow so I do not have large experience, but it only went about 30 yards after the shot. I do agree that I would be very hesitant about taking one any where near dark. We only quartered it to haul out, but it was like dropping a steer in the pasture and cutting it out right there. It is not a small amount of work.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    Mikee5star

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #11 on: October 27, 2019, 02:08:36 am »
    Kind of an interesting follow up.  This article follows use of pistols to defend against bear attacks around the world as well as the US from very early last century to current.  He breaks it down by caliber, and also talks a little bit about pepper spray and the pistol fails.  I just skimmed the article, but my favorite drug dealer LGS/ammo provider likes to link to this stuff as he is a huge 10mm fan and started his business by bring in HSM and other specialty 10mm ammo.  He had linked to the first article, and I saw it first through him, so when he linked to this I thought of this thread...What I did read seemed well researched, and well written. 

    www.ammoland.com/2019/08/handgun-or-pistol-defense-against-bear-attack-73-cases-96-effective/?fbclid=IwAR2US6J3LYuKGrx95SPtCWGgrGvTGFyh4zcAAK7fZNsxnzkVwIcssGM-v9Y#axzz61AOmOoul
    « Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 02:18:38 am by Mikee5star »
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    coelacanth

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #12 on: October 27, 2019, 03:24:02 am »
    Interesting compilation.  I can vouch for the 2012 incident from the Ponderosa Campground in Arizona.  We were camping a few miles from there at the time and the attack was the talk of the high country for a couple of weeks.  Everybody survived the attacks except one of the bears.  They said there were at least two and they were in that area for a few weeks. 

    A forest service employee told us they were young bears and thirsty and starving.  The drought and wildfires in the area moved them out of their normal habitat and pushed them into contact with people in the area - most of whom had no idea that they were there and took no precautions against attracting bears to their cabins and camp sites.
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    Mikee5star

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #13 on: October 27, 2019, 03:37:54 pm »
    Growing up in south central AK, we had black bears, brown bears, and moose.  Of the three, grizzly cows are the most dangerous.  They move right into town in the winters and people don't see non-predators as dangerous so they feed them, try to pet them and all manner of stupid human behavior.  Also when a Subaru collides with a moose at speed, it is often fatal on both sides.  Hitting a moose while riding a motorcycle is often fatal for the human, while the moose is more likely to survive.

    Black bears are, in my experience, very shy.  They were around, we had a sow how brought her cubs in to town to raid gardens, berry patches, and trash cans every year.  We lived in a neighborhood less than a 1/4 mile from the High school and the down town area, but we rarely the bears just the aftermath of their raids.  At least black bears are much neater about household trash compared to dogs.

    Brown bears did not come in to town, but did get close when the moose calved.  No real hunting pressure, so they got big and their numbers are still going up.  But I don't remember hearing about any aggressive encounters.  People who keep larger livestock had to be on guard when they had little ones, but spring is when any bear is more likely to be aggressive about food.   

    The wife and I lived in the Bristol Bay region for a while and brown bears are thick out there, and huge.  You keep your head on a swivel and clean up smelly trash.  They are not aggressive normally, but can be unpredictable.  I did carry a handgun spring and fall when the bears tend to be more unpredictable, and hungry.  But most bear encounters that I heard of were people who were not paying attention, or had fish trash around there place.  We did have two bears fight right in town, and one killed the other barely 100 yards off the loop road around town.  The surviving bear was shot, in defense of life or property, about 100 yards from the church and city hall on Dec 7.  It squared out at 9' 4", but was torn up from the fight and several hundred pounds under weight.  It was so under-weight it could not go into hibernation, and was hanging around town stalking residents and their dogs, so it died. 

    Alaska

    Mikee5star

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #14 on: October 27, 2019, 03:45:27 pm »
    I am a bit sensitive about bear attacks and humans responses to them.  I think that we cause most of the violent encounters through our stupidity and lack of caring how we affect wildlife around us.  Nature can be unpredictable, and we need to be aware and able to protect ourselves.  Also s___ happens.  Guys who were very capable and aware have found themselves between sows and their cubs.  But in general, humans are way to casual in our interactions with wildlife intentional or not.
    Alaska

    coelacanth

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #15 on: October 27, 2019, 10:26:59 pm »
    Agreed.  As we become a more urbanized society people have lost touch with nature generally.  More specifically the wild part that can have you ending up a notch or two below the top of the food chain.  Hasn't been a grizzly sighted in Arizona in a long, long time but a big black bear can go 400 pounds or more in the remote high country and a big, fast animal with an attitude can ruin your whole day.  That's why the coach gun and a S&W N frame loaded hot with hard cast bullets is always in hand or close at hand when camping, hiking, hunting or fishing, etc.   
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    Mikee5star

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #16 on: October 27, 2019, 10:39:10 pm »
    We are more urbanized as a world, and only want to get in touch with the cuddly side of nature.  I slightly died inside watching a youtubber freak out about flies, while b____ing about koala's sleeping so he could hug them.

    Alaska

    coelacanth

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #17 on: October 27, 2019, 10:45:10 pm »
    Yup.  Pretty sad when you realize that most urban and suburban dwellers spend more time glued to a "smart"(?) phone taking and distributing "selfies" than they do interacting with the natural world. 
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    Mikee5star

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #18 on: October 27, 2019, 10:48:08 pm »
    Yup.  Pretty sad when you realize that most urban and suburban dwellers spend more time glued to a "smart"(?) phone taking and distributing "selfies" than they do interacting with the natural world. 

    Or even being aware that there is a natural world. 
    Alaska

    coelacanth

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #19 on: October 27, 2019, 11:27:42 pm »
    You can't stir them with a stick at the local farmer's markets and natural foods emporia but they seldom venture far beyond cell tower range and only the most intrepid can be found more than a mile or so from a major road.   Not a complaint - just an observation.  The fewer nimrods and idiots in the back country the better IMO.   :cool

    Still, you can't help but wonder what happens to them all when the technology goes offline or completely dark for any extended period of time.  A lot of these people have fast food meals delivered to their apartments and houses because they can't be bothered to actually go to the restaurant or sit in the drive through for a few minutes - much less actually prepare a meal themselves.  :facepalm   The whole world streams into and onto their electronic devices and an entire sector of our economy has arisen to cater to ever more ridiculous service demands. 

    Seems to me there's a train wreck coming at some point and I definitely want to be out of town that week.   :thumbup1
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    MTK20

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #20 on: October 28, 2019, 12:59:18 am »
    When I just moved in with a roommate in tow, we didn't have internet for like 2 weeks. It was sad. You would have thought all of the electricity was off from his reaction. He just anxiously sat there.

    Regarding my generation, it is usually the girls that take the selfies and I tried out a new recipe today, so no offense to be taken there  :neener .
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    coelacanth

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #21 on: October 28, 2019, 02:21:10 am »
    Well, like anything else, the comment doesn't apply to 100% of the group it was directed at but the phenomenon is well known and documented.

    If there is anything stupider than texting while driving a car I am unaware of it and yet the number of people I see doing exactly that is a significant percentage of the drivers on the road.  Not just around the neighborhood where the speeds tend to run 25-45 mph but also out on the freeways at 70-80 mph.  That is some scary stuff.  :shocked

    Its probably a good thing its girls taking selfies - most guys are nowhere near photogenic enough to make it worth the effort.  Recipes are good - good recipes are even better.  No offense taken on either count.   :thumbup1

    I guess the problem I see is the degree to which the technology has changed people's everyday behavior patterns.  We weren't made to focus so closely on one thing for hours on end and ignore most of the external stimulii the world presents to us.  IMO.   :coffee

    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    MTK20

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #22 on: October 28, 2019, 02:30:03 am »

    I guess the problem I see is the degree to which the technology has changed people's everyday behavior patterns.  We weren't made to focus so closely on one thing for hours on end and ignore most of the external stimulii the world presents to us.  IMO.   :coffee


    Agreed. Those born when I was, were still playing outside. To my memory, the smart phone didn't hit us until 2007, give or take.

    I knew of both life with and without them. After that area of time, everything changed. Everyone born after that point will know nothing else and that is frightening.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #23 on: October 28, 2019, 03:04:18 am »
    Yup.  If people have never spent a full day in the field with only what they can carry or procure from the natural environment, watched the march of the sun across the sky and seen the interplay of light and shadow across the landscape, felt the wind and the rain and the heat and the cold - all in their turn, become aware of life all around them in every direction, known silence - not just of spoken word and human voice but also the constant internal yammering the technological world demands, then they know nothing of the world they inhabit. 
    Arizona" A republic, if you can keep it."

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    wyatt

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    Re: 200 grain FN @ 1040 fps vs Grizzly
    « Reply #24 on: October 28, 2019, 08:30:21 am »
    That was well said. It seems to me that there is something sinister about smart phones and related technology. It all too often becomes an unhealthy addiction. I supervised a bunch of temps. They just couldn't put the smart phones down and work. Time after time they'd get fired.

    Back to bears and pistols - I just spent two weeks alone in a remote 12x14 foot cabin in Southeast Alaska. It could only be reached by float plane. There were no roads, electricity, cell phone coverage or people within many miles. I could have shot skeet off the front porch of the cabin in my underwear it I wanted to - or a howitzer. I split wood for the stove with an 8lb maul, purified water from the stream and caught Cutthroat trout till my arm hurt. I didn't see one single bear. I'm beginning to think bears are mythical animals like unicorns or bigfoot. I carried my glock model 20 but by far the most dangerous thing I encountered was me with an 8lb maul. You get hurt up there and there's no way to call for help. You're on your own till the float plane comes back. That $1,000 smart phone that the kids can't live without wasn't worth a warm pair of socks. I got back to DFW two weeks ago today. Living in the wilderness just illuminates how absurd co called Civilization has become.

    One last thing - I bought a box of Federal American Eagle 10mm, 180gr FMJ in Ketchikan to practice with. It cost $40 bucks! I live in a rural area west of Ft. Worth and it only cost about $25 here.

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