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Weapons and Gear => Gear and Accessories => Topic started by: Nightcrawler on October 20, 2012, 04:04:09 pm

Title: "War Belt"
Post by: Nightcrawler on October 20, 2012, 04:04:09 pm
This is in tactical vogue now.  The "War Belt", "Battle Belt", whatever.  A lot of companies make them.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/topgunpilot20/Guns/belt_rig_01_web.jpg)

Add suspenders and we've pretty much come full circle, and are back to an ALICE rig, except with MOLLE webbing.

(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n259/RRACER300ZX/New1stLine00001.jpg)

The idea is that this is "first line gear".  I.E., something you have with you all the time.  You then put your high speed, high ride plate carrier with three magazines across the chest on top of that when you need it.  You will then still have some supplies and a sidearm if you have to strip off your armor.

(http://ddq74coujkv1i.cloudfront.net/SKD-TAC-PIG-Plate-Carrier-2.jpg)
Obviously it needs to be in Multicam.

The theory sounds good.  These are very popular at the shooting schools, and amongst the tactical folks on the internet.

So how does it translate in reality?  As in, not at a shooting class, but in actual day to day use?  Well, that depends.

In my small corner of Afghanistan, I didn't see anyone with such a set up.  Sometimes grunts go outside the wire without backpacks, I've heard, but it almost never happened in my area.  They always at least had a small patrol pack.  A patrol can last all day.  You never know when you're going to need extra supplies or bottles of water.  EOD never goes anywhere without packs, because you need your EOD tech crap with you in order to do your job.

A "war belt" is generally going to be incompatible with any pack that has a waist belt, which is to say, any good pack.

I did a little poking around on the internet to see how folks were getting around this.  The consensus seemed to be that you're not going to be wearing your backpack in combat anyway.  And I was all like, huh?

They used to teach that when you took contact, you'd drop your ruck, fight it out, then go back and get your stuff.  There are times when that may be necessary or viable, but being doctrinaire about it is foolish.  Doubly so when your operating environment is an IED-infested grape field in Afghanistan, where going back to get your s___ can get you killed.  It operates under the assumption that you're going to be able to go back and get your things, or that you're just going to be able to shrug and go, "oh well!" if  you can't get it.

For a civil SHTF scenario, the same logic applies.  If you're carrying it, you probably need it.  Do you really want to leave your vital supplies somewhere hoping you'll get to come back later for them?

(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn192/MKFAL/P7300017.jpg)
See?  It has to be in Multicam.

This is my gear.  Just dumping the robot and leaving it in some Afghan village until the engagement was over probably would've gotten me into a lot of trouble, if it was unsecured.  I didn't want to have to explain to the flight chief why I let some Afghan kids walk off with a hundred thousand dollar piece of equipment and the explosives I carried.

The war belt also assumes you're going to be wearing a high-ride plate carrier.  Any kind of full vest, lower riding chest rig, or issue gear like the IOTV, and it's not going to work, because they come down to your belt line.

None of this is to say it's a bad idea.  It's certainly not.  One would've been handy for tooling around the big base, where I was required to have a weapon.  Of course, an old ALICE pistol belt and a UM84 flap holster would've worked just as well for that purpose.

Now, if you're wearing a light pack, you may not even need your waist belt.  I never used it on my old medium ALICE pack, for instance.  But that pack was terribly designed anyway.

Being the tactical hipster that I am, though, I am amused at how, um, adamant internet denizens can be about their gear set ups.  So I thought I'd share.

My big question, then, about the war belt idea (aside from pack compatibility), would be how well it works with a Kydex holster.  They don't fasten to your pants belt in any way (like a police duty belt with keepers does).  It seems to me that trying to draw without some kind of leg tie-down or drop rig could turn into an exercise in frustration, with the whole belt pulling up as you attempt to draw the gun.

Has anyone used this kind of setup? Just curious.  Does this issue come up?

Here are some more pictures of the set up.  ATS, High Speed Gear, and a bunch of other companies make these now.

(http://www.defensereview.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ATS_War_Belt_Set-Up_with_Multiple_California_Comp_Works_Shotgun_Shell_Holders_Jeff_Gurwitch_1.jpg)

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_qdyXJmPFT38/SjbHo80pP5I/AAAAAAAAAho/f9wO0vwFVBs/BattleBeltV03%203.jpg)

(http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c29/DM1975/Gear/Battle-Belt.jpg)
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: LoneStarNational on October 20, 2012, 04:51:49 pm
I've got one, but it's more of a "bump in the night" belt with everything I might need to respond to an issue at home.  G-code holster w/ Glock, double mag carrier (one of which holds a flashlight), knife, shotgun shell pouch, cell-phone pouch. 

It's something easy to throw on over my boxer-shorts in an emergency, to make sure I have everyhing I might need besides just my HD shotgun, which sleeps next to it. I think it perfectly fills that roll.  What you're saying about its limited use in a war zone, or SHTF, makes sense though. Any situation outside my home that requires those tools also likely requires more provisions than I can squeeze onto a belt.

Edit to answer the question- the Gcode works really nice with it. Because its retention primarily comes from the hood, the tension from just the holster is not as extreme as some others. Once the hood is open, the gun draws fine without pulling the belt off my hip. The weight of the magazines and shotgun shells also probably helps keep the belt where it belongs. http://www.tacticalholsters.com/product/XST/XST-Standard.html (http://www.tacticalholsters.com/product/XST/XST-Standard.html)
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: mwcoleburn on October 20, 2012, 05:15:13 pm
Yeah, I can see it as a range belt, or as a bedside belt (both of which I wouldnt personally use) but It seems like people just keep trying to shovel 5lbs of s___ in a 2 pound sack
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: LoneStarNational on October 20, 2012, 05:25:14 pm
In my mind it's appropriate anywhere a policeman's duty belt would be appropriate.  You can fit about the same amount of gear on it; it's simply more tacticool. And, in my example of a bedside belt, I would suspect it to be more comfortable on my nearly bare hips.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: seanp on October 20, 2012, 08:03:54 pm
In my mind it's appropriate anywhere a policeman's duty belt would be appropriate.

Yeah, it's just a duty belt by another name.
Title: "War Belt"
Post by: huey148 on October 20, 2012, 08:20:22 pm
Yeah, I can see it as a range belt, or as a bedside belt (both of which I wouldnt personally use) but It seems like people just keep trying to shovel 5lbs of s___ in a 2 pound sack

More like 5 pounds on a 2 pound belt...total gain of 7 pounds more to carry
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: sarge712 on October 20, 2012, 09:02:44 pm
strangelittleman and I have called it a "sub-fighting" unit for 20+ years. I picked it up from him and he picked it up when he was a FAST Marine. The idea was if you had to drop armor to E&E, fell overboard or were at chow, etc. you still had a minimum combat capability at all times. For me its just a jazzed up duty belt which I pretty much wear daily already
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Coronach on October 20, 2012, 10:51:40 pm
Yeah, I'm pretty pro on the idea, but that's probably heavily influenced by the fact that I already wear one for 40 hours a week, and a lot of my other gear and procedures are predicated on the idea that I will be wearing one.

I think the general idea is sound, just keep what is on the belt reasonable. Pistol and mags, flashlight, tourniquet and IFAK come to mind. I'm sure whole treatises have been penned about this. For me, it's mostly decided for me, based upon my work duty belt.

I think the main issue with it is that it is incompatible with heavy packs, but this then raises the question of when you would be fighting with a heavy pack. For MOST of us, the answer is "never" (obviously, a different answer would be given by someone in the .mil). We would be working out of vehicles (police, civilians), doing aggressive homestead/neighborhood defense (citizens), playing at the range (all of the above). You do need to be aware that if you do have to don a hefty pack that your fancy pants belt will be in the way.

Mike

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Nightcrawler on October 20, 2012, 11:13:54 pm
I think they'd be good for Air Force cops.  Security Forces have to wear ABUs, same as the rest of us.  ABUs feature a 4-pocket jacket and can't be tucked in.  The pants belt is covered by the jacket.  So you have the cops wearing 2" nylon duty belts, with a few pouches on them, attached to Sarfariland drop-leg holsters.  I had a similar setup on a job once.  This arrangement pulls the duty belt down at an awkward angle and pulls your pant leg up.

A wider, padded MOLLE belt would be a better solution.  And, it'd have better load carriage, so they could do away with the clumsy load bearing harnesses they sometimes wear in addition to the duty belts.  You could just throw a high ride, no frills plate carrier on above it for higher threat situations and call it good.

For any situation where you're not wearing a heavy pack, the idea is certainly sound.  It's not like carrying gear on your belt is some radical new concept.

Coronach, have you experienced an issue with drawing your weapon?  What kind of holster are you using?  Does it yank the belt up?
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: kunkmiester on October 21, 2012, 03:49:43 am
Could such a belt be rigged so that it can be worn like a bandolier when donning a pack?  Just curious.  The belt is probably thick enough to be an issue between you and the pack, but if you can keep your pouches out of there, it might be tolerable.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Coronach on October 21, 2012, 08:14:44 am
I use a Safariland holster, it does not pull the belt up when you draw, so long as you deactivate the retention.

Mike

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Coronach on October 21, 2012, 08:16:40 am
Could such a belt be rigged so that it can be worn like a bandolier when donning a pack?  Just curious.  The belt is probably thick enough to be an issue between you and the pack, but if you can keep your pouches out of there, it might be tolerable.
You may be able to put it over the pack's belt. MAY. Of course, this negates the 'dump the pack and fight with your plate carrier and belt' idea, since the belt would get dumped, too.

Mike

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: GeorgeHill on October 21, 2012, 12:52:19 pm
So my post Nam Gear can come out of hiding?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Jay.Mac on October 22, 2012, 04:06:26 am
Going back a good few years I was in the British armed forces and our webbing was our first line kit (this was before the introduction of Osprey armour). Our webbing carried magazine pouches, bayonet, canteen(s) and a pouch holding one 24hr ration pack and a stove. The next line was a patrol rucksack- made up of the two pouches of our large backpack fastened together and held on a yoke. When we needed our full gear, the small pouches went back onto the big rucksack/Bergen and we carried that- and there was no problem fastening the waist belt with the webbing on.

There are some good examples of this kind of gear layout here- http://www.survivalaids.com/kit.php?id=5 (http://www.survivalaids.com/kit.php?id=5) Below the picture are links to the other "layers" of kit.

From pictures I've seen from Afghanistan lately, the practice of wearing webbing is all but gone- instead that gear is distributed on the vest and in patrol sacks. However, back in Iraq when the Osprey body armour system started being worn, it wasn't unusual to see it paired with webbing.

Personally, I'm an advocate of the idea of carrying your ammo, water and food for 24 hours on your person at all times. To name one example, when the guys in the SAS Bravo Two Zero patrol came under attack and had to bug out, they were forced to ditch their Bergens and run with just the gear they were carrying in their webbing. Same applies if you were to come under attack at night, for example, and had to move fast to a new position.

My advice is that if you are carrying a large pack and don't have a belt/webbing system, make sure that you can grab a smaller one from it at a moment's notice with essential gear in it.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: sarge712 on October 22, 2012, 05:16:17 am
I agree with the SAS Bravo Two Zero example and that's what my brother and I tailor our "sub-fighting unit" / war belt after. Its a self-contained grab-n-go / Minute Man set up.

On my SWAT belt besides the two rifle and pistol mags, radio holder, side arm and fighting knife, there's a survival / E&E kit packed in a M-16 mag pouch. Water isn't a problem here as we are in a temperate rain forest but I do have a Platypus collapsible bottle in the E&E kit.

If on surveillance in the woods, which is my primary job on the drug task force, I use an ALICE H harness on my "woods belt" which has all of the above in addition to a first aid kit in another M-16 pouch and a pair of canteens. I also carry a camo Kelty hunter's pack full of water, chow, camera and radio equipment over that and its never been a problem.

Being nylon based, the entire thing is still lighter than my leather duty belt.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: schapm on October 22, 2012, 08:34:09 am
If you wanted a belt that was pack compatible, Hill People Gear just announced a new product. (I promise I don't work for these guys.)
http://www.hillpeoplegear.com/Forum/tabid/679/forumid/22/threadid/3880/scope/posts/Default.aspx (http://www.hillpeoplegear.com/Forum/tabid/679/forumid/22/threadid/3880/scope/posts/Default.aspx)
It is modular, so you can run it as your pack belt, as a stand-alone, or with a harness.

I fully expect to never be in a scenario where I am donning a pack and a rifle before going out to fight bad guys, but I could see running this on your pack with the pistol on a drop rig so that even when you are separated from the pack the pistol is on you still.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: jimspur on October 22, 2012, 11:07:31 am
I think I remember a pretty big write-up by Tireiron on this same subject... no idea where I read it though. 
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: huey148 on October 22, 2012, 12:19:35 pm
I remember we used to unhook our LBE in the front to allow the canteens to sag in the back and get underneath the rucksack...I also remember replacing the metal hardware with 550 cord and electrical taping anything that rattled and jumping up and down to test it....what is new is old and visa versa again...

Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Nightcrawler on February 26, 2013, 12:39:19 pm
Resurrect.

There was an article in a big gun magazine by a big name author talking about how to set up your "war belt" for shooting classes.  These are definitely in the tactical vogue right now.  Which is fine.  If it works for you, it works for you.  I guess the faddishness of the industry annoys me sometimes. It's funny to see people "wow, you can attach suspenders to your belt to help keep it up!", gee-whizzing over what is essentially a redux of 1960s ALICE gear (which was, by the by, the first gear I was ever issued). We've come full circle.

I think my other pet peeve is when people who are in the tactical vogue TELL YOU what gear YOU NEED, when they're coming from a frame of reference of prepping for a shooting school or whatever, and just get confused when you tell them your needs are different.  Like me, for example, not wanting a "war belt" because on deployment I have to carry a backpack everywhere I go in order to do my job (and no, those little three day bags won't cut it.  They're not good for much more than 20-25 pounds, and C4 is heavy.  The robot is heavier).

I'm not criticizing people who have gear.  I'd be a monstrous hypocrite if I did.  And there are folks who have piles of gear, who run through shooting courses a lot and have used theirs a lot more than I have.  But the gear I have isn't really for shooting classes, anymore than I bought my rifle so I could go through a shooting class.  I have gear because I have a rifle.  The rifle is not used for home defense, and I don't hunt.  I have the gear on the assumption that if I ever need the rifle, I'm probably going to want body armor and some way of carrying magazines, too.  (It's hard to imagine scenarios where you have NEED of, for example, my Broadsword, and would NOT want these things.)

I also hear this a lot: "You have first line gear, on the WAR BELT, in case you need to ditch your body armor, so you're still in the fight."

If you're still in the fight why in the hell are you "ditching" the thing that protects your organs from bullets?

As for carrying 24 hours worth of stuff with you...I guess it depends.  I didn't have enough room on my IOTV or my plate carrier to put in 24 hours worth of water (I drink a lot of water, and water is heavy).  I didn't carry any water on those vests, actually.  No canteens, no water bladders (I didn't use the latter because of the pack.)  All of my water came in the form of half-liter plastic bottles.  I'd have a couple in a dump pouch attached to the waist belt of my pack, or maybe in my cargo pocket, and a bunch more in the pack.  I could fit enough jerky and Snickers energy bars in my snack pouch to keep me going for a day, but not water.  And, of course, applying to my career field in particular, I can't do my job with just water and ammo.

It depends on what you're doing.  If you're tooling around the FOB? I often carried my M9, but not always, and that was only because of the ANA.  I did a couple of long dismounts with my M9, but if I knew I was going to be doing a ton of walking I just left it behind like big weight of dubious utility it actually is (remember, the vast majority of infantrymen in the Army or Marines don't get sidearms and never have, but some people on the internet act like going into combat with only one gun is some crazy concept). 

Outside the wire, it's more important to have what you might need on you, and this includes things less focused on these days, like spare socks and toilet paper.

But the next war may not be like Iraq or Afghanistan, where US forces endlessly patrol the same occupied territory, operating from a series of large, medium, and small fixed bases, for years on end.  The nature of the conflict drove a lot of the thinking, like the new 84-ton mine/IED protected APC the Army is trying to get to replace the Bradley.  (It weighs more than an Abrams tank but still only carries six guys.)
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: JesseL on February 26, 2013, 01:48:02 pm
In wonder if you could hang some sort of bag between the suspenders on your back, for carrying bulkier gear?  :hmm

Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Nightcrawler on February 26, 2013, 01:51:50 pm
ROFL

I'm waiting for them to re-invent the buttpack.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Nick Cage on February 26, 2013, 04:32:39 pm
I have never been able to figure out if the "war belt" was a good idea or a horrible idea.

On one hand it sounds like a good thing for folks to have to just toss on real quick for emergencies.
On the other hand a plate carrier can do pretty much everything you do on the belt and it adds ballistic protection.

Of course my view of things is more of a civilian quick action rig, not a participating in a big green machine war. 
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: seanp on February 26, 2013, 05:43:21 pm
I drink a lot of water, and water is heavy.

On a normal day, I drink 1-2 gallons of water.  That's 10 to 20 lbs and enough that my mother in law was convinced I was a diabetic and demanded I get tested before I married her daughter.  I'm not diabetic and tested healthy.  On an armored run I drink as little as 25 ml as the driver and don't get out of the car for eight hours.  Pretty typically I shoot down 3-4 liters and piss like a race horse after I am off shift.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Coronach on February 26, 2013, 05:43:48 pm
I favor the war belt concept, simply because I am forced to wear one on duty. It's called the Police Duty Belt. Ergo, all of my gear is set up around the idea that I'll have a belt with some equipment and MAYBE a vest with some equipment. I could do completely different things on and off duty, but that adds a level of training complexity that doesn't do anyone any good. I basically assume that my "primary" gear will be on my belt and I may have additional crap on a chest rig. I try to keep locations consistent.

Mike
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Mamba1-0 on February 26, 2013, 05:49:53 pm
ROFL

I'm waiting for them to re-invent the buttpack.

(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc85/Mamba1-0/Condormodenhancedbuttpack2200.jpg)

Already done.  :neener
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Langenator on February 26, 2013, 05:59:22 pm
ROFL

I'm waiting for them to re-invent the buttpack.

The one thing about buttpacks is they make sitting in a vehicle kind of awkward, especially if you have long legs like me.  I remember many rides in the CO's Humvee with my knees jammed into the driver's seatback because my buttpack was pushing my butt forward several inches from my seat.

I never did figure out how the buttpack on ALICE gear works with a parachute harness, but apparently it does.  One thing MOLLE can't do.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Persquaffty on February 26, 2013, 06:04:30 pm
While deployed (USMC 0311 A-stan) I used a extra thick war/patrol belt I got at the haji mart on base. It wasnt a war belt more like an extra thick riggers belt (no molle) intended to snap overtop one's pants belt via a plastic male female connection, I found this set up extremely useful b/c I could have a dump pouch, fixed blade knife and pouches with my NVG's and PVS 24 and one saw nut-sack (100 rd cloth drum its a USMC term not my own) pouch on my belt that I could easily detach when sitting in a vehicle or manning a turret etc and I liked the concept off having an additional low profile belt that consists of gear that could very well be mission essential but fequently was not needed. This setup can be carried easily with a low profile belt in conjunction with plate carrier and assault pack or ILBE (although I thankfully never humped an ilbe on a foot patrol in theater.)  My belt was of dubious haji mart quality and broke month 6 of the deployment and Im wondering if a better substitute now exists?
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: dot4x4 on February 26, 2013, 06:46:54 pm
Persquaffty ...  something like this ?  http://www.originalsoegear.com/cobrabelt.html (http://www.originalsoegear.com/cobrabelt.html)

By the way thank you for your service. 
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Persquaffty on February 26, 2013, 11:22:18 pm
essentially thats the idea, it was however less ummmm logical it had an inner and outer belt hard to explain like a police duty belt but not as logical and skinnier.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Nightcrawler on February 27, 2013, 01:26:37 am
I favor the war belt concept, simply because I am forced to wear one on duty. It's called the Police Duty Belt. Ergo, all of my gear is set up around the idea that I'll have a belt with some equipment and MAYBE a vest with some equipment. I could do completely different things on and off duty, but that adds a level of training complexity that doesn't do anyone any good. I basically assume that my "primary" gear will be on my belt and I may have additional crap on a chest rig. I try to keep locations consistent.

Mike

Here's a question for you.  If you could replace your normal police duty belt with the wider, padded MOLLE belt, would you?  I've worn a duty belt before, and I know how uncomfortable they can be.  I can't help but thinking the padded MOLLE belt might be a lot more comfortable (even if it did look a little silly on an on-duty police officer). 

But no, your reasoning for using it is quite sound.  I'm all about that.  Whatever gear works for you, use it.  If it's a cheap Condor tac vest, if it works it works.  People have gone to war with worse.  The people we're fighting in Afghanistan are lucky if they have any load bearing gear at all.  Or shoes, for that matter.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Nightcrawler on February 27, 2013, 01:34:15 am
essentially thats the idea, it was however less ummmm logical it had an inner and outer belt hard to explain like a police duty belt but not as logical and skinnier.


Hmm.  I think what you're looking for is basically one of the 2" nylon gun belts that a lot of the gear makers have.  I have this one, from Specter Gear:  https://www.spectergear.com/searchresults.asp?cat=61 (https://www.spectergear.com/searchresults.asp?cat=61)

They even make a nice big pad for it, to make it more comfy.  Basically, it's a reinvention of the old ALICE pistol belt.  It's stiffer, better suited to carrying a holster, than the old web belt ever was.  It's designed not to be a pants belt (like I think the SOE gear one is), and a 2" belt won't fit through your pant loops anyway.  It goes over your pants belt.  You can even get nylon keepers from places like LA Police Gear and Cop Quest to attach it to your pants belt so it stays put (just make sure you get ones meant for a 2" belt.  Many are designed for 2.25" police duty belts, and they'll be too big).

Specter also makes a dump pouch specifically designed for their duty belt.

Or, you can combine one of these belts with a MOLLE pad (from a bunch of different gear makers now) and attach standard MOLLE pouches to it, but this will add a little bulk to it.  If your standard kit is a high ride plate carrier, then the MOLLE belt works.  If you're using the full up vest (I forget what the Marine equivalent of the IOTV is), then the vest will probably come down too far on your torso to make using the MOLLE belt practical.  I think you could still get away with a 2" duty belt though.

Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Coronach on February 27, 2013, 07:20:47 am
Would I replace my duty belt with something more comfortable and adaptable if I could? Absolutely. I dunno if molle is the way forward for that or not, but appearance and policy aside, I'd certainly consider it.

Mike

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: sarge712 on February 27, 2013, 09:10:15 am
My brother introduced me to the "sub-fighting unit" aka warbelt. This is a term from his days with Marine FAST company at Treasure Island, CA, back in the late 80's-early 90's. It had your pistol, fighting knife etc., that you might need to keep fighting or E&E-ing if you had to drop your armor in flight or in his case, if he went overboard off an oil rig or ship. It was also so you could remain armed and ready at all times even when not fully kitted up. When I was in boot camp what was called the war belt was simply the web belt that held our canteens and gradually more items as we progressed. SLM's 'sub-fighting unit" was that type of basic web belt and was way before MOLLE was introduced. I use one but when in the woods I still like the old LBE H harness attached to it.

Like George has said many a time, I too think that every member of the Armed Forces should be issued a "warbelt" with sidearm and fighting knife upon graduation from basic and a version of it is to be on them at all times, even in full dress uniform. Imagine the difference it would have made at Ft. Hood and with so many ANA attacks by our so called allies. It would also serve as a reminder to each service member of the gravity of his office and would be like a badge of service/office to the public.

I personally will always carry a sidearm into harm's way as a back-up to my rifle. Even if never used, its a comfort to have. Cost in supply, training, maintenance, etc. is the reason its not issued to every infantryman. If asked I think most Marine 0311's would welcome it. i assume the same about Army 11B's as well.

I acually had what I previously considered to be a squared away SWAT officer complain about his sidearm in the woods. It was toooooo heeeeeavy. It banged up his hiiiiiiip. It got in the waaaaaaay snivelsnivelsnivel.

Awwwww...Does it chafe too? Is it the wrong color? Does your tumtum hurt? He filed a complaint on me when we got back the next day. It cut his throat with the chief though who felt the same way I did. Needless to say, he wasn't taken along on any more surveillance missions. When we are lying in a hide site, we often are scouted out and have had bad guys walk right up on us without seeing us. A pistol is the best option for that close up contact.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Coronach on February 27, 2013, 09:54:04 am
When someone does that around here we ask him if he has a yeast infection. That usually settles things quickly.

What is REALLY funny is when it is a female officer doing the asking. Nothing will shut a man up like that.

Mike

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Nightcrawler on February 27, 2013, 11:31:21 am
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn192/MKFAL/DSC00322_zps93a1c338.jpg)

(http://api.ning.com/files/hWsIkySxVpfJypRno*E3VDek2syJcel8acH9wB*-yofz2q05XnFzhMg4AQSxfQbE8hi7zp20o5w0JJeYr8DVvnJyfUFJQ7-X/173rdABNBrig.InvasionofIraq.jpg?width=737&height=532)

Here you go, solider.  You have to carry your M9.  It's just a few more pounds, and one more accountable item you have to clean and make sure you don't lose and wear on your body somewhere. We're going to walk for twelve hours and run for a few hundred meters at the end. Oh, you still have to be mobile enough to react to contact, climb over mud walls, get through rivers, and hey, watch for pressure plates while you're at it.  It's 120* outside, so make sure you have enough water.  We're not getting resupplied this time.

Afghanistan changed a lot of people's notions of what to carry on a dismount. Experiences there are one of the main reasons thigh holsters are less popular now.  I never brought my sidearm on a multi-day.  I'm already carrying a ton of crap. I never saw any of my Army guys carry one, not even the officers.  And that's just where I was.  Other places in Afghanistan are very high altitude, over 8, 9, or 10,000 feet.  There's no room for superfluous crap when you can carry more water, more batteries, or more ammunition for your rifles and machine guns (the guns you'll actually use).  You're more likely to get run over by a jingle truck because you didn't have your reflective belt on, than you are to need your M9 in Afghanistan.

"Everyone should carry a weapon at all times" sounds cool in theory.  In reality, the US serviceman isn't some kind of samurai. The military is a large, bureaucratic organization made up of every type of person imaginable, not some elite warrior caste.  It'd mean every member of a battalion would have to stay on base overnight because some dumbass lost his sidearm.  It'd mean a rash of negligent discharges.  It'd mean even more improperly worn shoulder holsters. It'd mean multimillion dollar aircraft destroyed because some maintainer was required to wear a gunbelt when crawling around in the intake of an F-16, lost his mag, and had a round pop out that he didn't notice.

More trouble than it's worth.

As for the insider attacks, everyone in Afghanistan these days IS armed at all times these days.  It doesn't help you when the ANA goes instant jihad and shoots you in the back. It certainly doesn't help against a suicide bomber. And I would much rather the finance guys get better at processing my travel voucher, then them spending their limited training time learning to use a pistol that they'll never need.

I'm not saying I'm against the carrying of service sidearms or anything, but I'm being realistic. I try not to be dogmatic about things.  Carrying a pistol on the battlefield isn't necessarily a bad idea, but it's certainly not necessary and you're not "wrong", you're not "not a warrior", and you don't "have the wrong mindset" if you don't have one. It's just a piece of equipment, not a badge of honor.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Nick Cage on February 27, 2013, 12:41:33 pm
That was an epic rant, and not being in the service ever I don't have any information or opinion that matters on that subject.

However the phrase "You're more likely to get run over by a jingle truck" has now earned a permanent place in my vocabulary.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: RevDisk on February 27, 2013, 01:40:13 pm
I've always hated drop/thigh holsters. By hate, I was give one for free and ended up setting it on fire. Gorram Alliance junk.

For me, a war belt is essentially an LBE (which I'm old enough to have used) minus the shoulder straps. Straps are generally a good idea. So... Sure, LBE's are great. LBE's without the straps is slightly controversial, I suppose. But I've taken off my H and V straps before.

I suppose I made a war belt with my rigger's belt for when I hiked. Essentially I used an M16 mag pouch to hold my supplies. I'm leery of going all tacticool now that I'm out of the military. I prefer focusing on normal looking solutions. I've gotten some VERY odd looks at training classes because I had no tacticool accessories. No optics, no vest, no nothing. I ended up putting an M16 mag pouch on my belt. Tis about it. I used an OWB holster, and tucked in my shirt for the "tactical pistol" part. I conceded that I was not trying to go for "high speed, low drag" operator. I was practicing for the way I lived every day, not practicing for the way I did NOT live every day. Not knocking that sort of training. Just saying, a lot of people train very differently than they act in the normal world.

War belt in the military? Sure. Again, it's the old LBE system. Belting your pouches to you instead of your armor. Admittedly, I always belted my pouches to my armor. I hung my armor on essentially a stubby cross, and could go from asleep to "everything on" in seconds. Slap on K pot, rip off armor (already open), put on armor, grab rifle, close up armor while running. A separate belt would have slowed me done by two to five seconds, if fumbling in the dark. Simple enough to fix, a peg off the cross towards the front to hold the belt. The advantage would be solely if I needed to ditch the armor. Unlikely, to happen, but possible.

Honestly, I'd rather than be using an assault pack on a quick detach system on my armor, but that's personal preference. I can and have winged a pack over a fence, or obstacle. Belt would have made it harder in confined space...  I dunno. I can see the advantages and disadvantages. I went with "strap everything to the armor, extra crap goes in the backpack, 'bailout bag' was a not-really-tacticool $5 general issue butt pack". It didn't bite me in the rear, but I understand the appeal of the LBE system.

I still remember flipping my pack over my head to get on.  Ye Gods I still remember how STUPID it was to be carrying a 70-90 lb ruck. Seriously. I was in very good shape, and it was a bear to even put on when you were all kitted up.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: sohmdaddy on February 27, 2013, 02:16:36 pm
In my mind, the War Belt is something that you can quickly pick up and snap on, then grab your rifle. It has magazines and a pistol already on it, apparently. It's for regular folks who have had some training, not professional soldiers.

If you had to get into a shooting match with someone, you don't to standing there in your pajamas with an empty rifle thinking, "Can I make it back to my bedroom to get another mag?" I think its just another way of conveniently carrying extra ammo and gear.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Nightcrawler on February 27, 2013, 02:38:33 pm
Again, just so I'm clear, I'm not bashing anybody or anyone's choice of gear. Just thinking out loud, no worries.  I didn't mean to sound ranty.

I've also seen a MOLLE bandolier that would also be a good choice for the citizen who might need to throw on some extra ammo in case of an emergency.  It just goes over a shoulder instead of around your waist.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: sohmdaddy on February 27, 2013, 03:04:33 pm
I might consider getting a belt, but I just have the shotgun for home defense, and have cobbled together a pouch with a shoulder strap that holds shells. If I need the pistol, I'll put on my pants.

I think it's awesome that there are so many gear options out there.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: RevDisk on February 27, 2013, 03:27:45 pm
In my mind, the War Belt is something that you can quickly pick up and snap on, then grab your rifle. It has magazines and a pistol already on it, apparently. It's for regular folks who have had some training, not professional soldiers.

If you had to get into a shooting match with someone, you don't to standing there in your pajamas with an empty rifle thinking, "Can I make it back to my bedroom to get another mag?" I think its just another way of conveniently carrying extra ammo and gear.
Again, just so I'm clear, I'm not bashing anybody or anyone's choice of gear. Just thinking out loud, no worries.  I didn't mean to sound ranty.

I've also seen a MOLLE bandolier that would also be a good choice for the citizen who might need to throw on some extra ammo in case of an emergency.  It just goes over a shoulder instead of around your waist.

To nitpick... Not sure why folks would call it a "war belt" instead of fanny pack, tool belt, utility belt, bat belt, ammo belt, etc. Chuck Norris wears one, then it's manly. So, no worries on that front.

Anywho. Yea, this one is just going to be tied to personal preference. I can't see any distinct advantages to the bat belt over a bag, pack or bandolier. This is not bad, it just is. A bag, pack or ruck could be made to look normal and non-tactical. Bandolier and bat belt would be much harder, but maybe possible. This may or may not be a disadvantage, based on your preferences.

Guess in the end, I concur with Nightcrawler.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Nightcrawler on February 27, 2013, 03:40:30 pm
Quote
Not sure why folks would call it a "war belt" instead of fanny pack, tool belt, utility belt, bat belt, ammo belt, etc. Chuck Norris wears one, then it's manly. So, no worries on that front.

Because gun writers/school instructors do. Manufacturers picked it up because it's marketable.  End users like it because...well, take John Citizen, owner of an AR-15.  John does some internet research, decides he wants to take a professional carbine course, and then equips himself accordingly.  John then runs through the carbine course with his Multicam WAR BELT and carbine, gets to hang out with a comparatively famous, experienced firearms instructor or two, has a great time, and feels like a badass running and gunning.

That's why.  :shrug
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: RevDisk on February 27, 2013, 03:46:14 pm
Because gun writers/school instructors do. Manufacturers picked it up because it's marketable.  End users like it because...well, take John Citizen, owner of an AR-15.  John does some internet research, decides he wants to take a professional carbine course, and then equips himself accordingly.  John then runs through the carbine course with his Multicam WAR BELT and carbine, gets to hang out with a comparatively famous, experienced firearms instructor or two, has a great time, and feels like a badass running and gunning.

That's why.  :shrug

Nothing wrong with that, either.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: Daylight on February 28, 2013, 03:45:01 am
If I ever have to put on fighting gear to face anything more dangerous than EDC or range day, I want to preserve the option of invisibility.  I want to carry without looking like a catalog picture, I want to be camouflaged without looking like I am camouflaged.  I also need to account for mobility with kids, and my tactical vehicle is not an uparmored anything, but it does have a lot of cup holders and booster seats. 

Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: mwcoleburn on February 28, 2013, 03:54:56 am
I just bought a full set of molle gear and a "war belt"  Wait for the first episode of Delta Bravo Tactical to find out why.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: hi-power on March 03, 2013, 09:16:55 pm
as someone who has never been paid to shoot or be shot at, the war belt/ battle belt/ superDuty belt et cetera has a lot of appeal.
i've never had a plate carrier, tactical harness, or whatever those things are called, and probably never will. i would feel a fool wearing one and i really don't see the point outside of a war zone. but an oversize belt with the essentials that i can quickly strap on? that i can get behind. if it easily adjusts so i can buckle it over a coat so much the better.
reloads, flashlight, and a holster for the nightstand gun ready to buckle over my jammies sounds a bit overkill but potentially useful.
small enough to be thrown in with the bugout gear or a trunk survival kit but big enough to be useful, i could see getting one.

of course i still poke fun at my buddy who bought the name brand battle belt and strapped a bajillion AR mag pouches right across his back and has zero general purpose gear...the fancied up belt is a good idea, but not everyone executes it well.
Title: Re: "War Belt"
Post by: RevDisk on March 05, 2013, 10:41:47 am

I need to make a gwar belt. That way I can make money from both tactical market as well as metal fans.