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Author Topic: Looking for training for "When to use dealy force and when not to".  (Read 5758 times)

JumboJim

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From a legal stand point as well the obvious self protection of property and person. Was talking about this a few weeks ago with my Ex-girlfriend since she recently received her CCW. I'm fairly new to conceal carry andI really wasn't sure where the line was when it came to drawing your weapon and when to then need to fire the weapon.

She asked as an example: If she were in a dark alley and someone tried to rob her and she had time to draw, Should she?

Another was: Was just the treat of bodily harm enough to draw?

I really wasn't sure and it bothered me. I would draw in both instances but the first one got me thinking. I really don't want to be in these situations but do want to know what I can and can not do with least legal hassle as well as adequately protecting herself/myself (the priority) in these situations.


I see SigArms Academy has a class but I missed it this time around. I'm in New Hampshire but would travel to get to the right class. http://www.sigsauer.com/EducationTraining/Courses/ShowCourseDetails.aspx?cid=161&ccid=10

Thanks!

Jim Smith

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    Pat-inCO

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    Re: Looking for training for "When to use dealy force and when not to".
    « Reply #1 on: October 18, 2008, 11:29:53 am »
    I think I would start at http://www.handgunlaw.us/ .

    They have links to the laws for each state (each one may be different, it pays to check!).

    Another one is LexisNexis ( http://www.lexisnexis.com/ ) which publishes many state's laws/statutes. They have them available online or in hard copy (hard copy is $30 to $50, depending on the state).

    Last would be to contact a lawyer in your area. Find one that is CCW friendly (get the best information that way) and see what they have to say. The advantage here is that if you follow their advice and end up in trouble, they are in the same tank with you.
    « Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 02:53:48 pm by Pat-inCO »
    BN-Life - NRA member.

    BHPshooter

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    Re: Looking for training for "When to use dealy force and when not to".
    « Reply #2 on: October 18, 2008, 10:00:16 pm »
    Quote
    I'm fairly new to conceal carry and I really wasn't sure where the line was when it came to drawing your weapon and when to then need to fire the weapon.

    Then you need to take a CCW class from another instructor.

    I'm a Utah CCW instructor, and the majority of my class covers the use of force -- where that "line" is. I'm not saying this to rip on another instructor, because we all teach differently, and everyone learns differently. What I am saying is this: Maybe another instructor speaks your language a little bit better.

    Prior to becoming an instructor, I sat through no less than 20 CCW classes by 4 different instructors, and you'd be surprised at the difference. All were good classes and good instructors, but they each have their own methods.

    Wes

    Bo Smith

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    Re: Looking for training for "When to use dealy force and when not to".
    « Reply #3 on: October 18, 2008, 11:45:07 pm »
    Since you're already back east, I would strongly consider Massad Ayoob. His LFI I course deals heavily with the legal implications of self-defense.
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    Al Thompson

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    Re: Looking for training for "When to use dealy force and when not to".
    « Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 02:41:24 am »
    Get a copy of "In the greatest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob - still the gold standard for self defense.

    Al Thompson

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    Re: Looking for training for "When to use dealy force and when not to".
    « Reply #5 on: October 20, 2008, 02:44:01 am »
    Oh, great web site.. http://www.corneredcat.com/



    « Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 02:47:25 am by Al Thompson »

    zeezrom82

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    Re: Looking for training for "When to use dealy force and when not to".
    « Reply #6 on: October 20, 2008, 10:42:56 am »
    The Supreme Court has consistently held a, "Life is greater than property," philosophy.

    This means that the intent to use deadly force is generally discouraged when the sole purpose is to protect property.

    Recognize that I used the words, "intent" and "sole purpose". If you "intended" to shoot someone in the knee to protect your car, you're probably on safe legal ground in regards to criminal charges and civil suits.

    However, if you intended to kill someone, or used reckless disregard for life, in order to protect your car you're probably in trouble. Also, recognize that many states have enacted, "Cat in the corner," laws.
    Remembering a wrong is like carrying a burden on the mind. -Buddha

    pax

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    Re: Looking for training for "When to use dealy force and when not to".
    « Reply #7 on: October 20, 2008, 11:26:31 am »
    Try these resources (listed in order of cost, from free to spendy -- with commensurate value, btw.)

    www.useofforce.us

    www.corneredcat.com/Legal/AOJ.aspx

    Purchase a copy of Massad Ayoob's book, In the Gravest Extreme.

    Join the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network. (They do online-publish a free newsetter, the e-Journal, which is good reading.)

    Take an LFI-1 class, or at least the Judicious Use of Deadly Force portion thereof.

    Hope something up there helps.  ;)

    pax
    Kathy Jackson
    Managing Editor, Concealed Carry Magazine
    Personal website: Cornered Cat

    JumboJim

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    Re: Looking for training for "When to use dealy force and when not to".
    « Reply #8 on: October 21, 2008, 10:04:11 pm »
    Thanks everyone! I'll check all of these out.

    BHP, I took the course years ago but didn't get my permit until just over 2 years ago in CT before moving to NH (wanted the CT permit but didn't want to do the non-resident song and dance after the move). From what I recall of the class, the instructor only touched on the subject. I really want a more focused training.

    Jim Smith

    PvtPyle

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    Re: Looking for training for "When to use dealy force and when not to".
    « Reply #9 on: October 23, 2008, 03:10:27 pm »
    In most places, the "reasonable man" standard will apply. There are always little laws that have an affect on the issue, but would it be acceptable that a resonable man would agree that your life was in danger or under serious threat? Can you verbalize the threat in a court of law? That is the standard by which we teach our students. You need to verbalize it in court and a reasonable person would understand and agree with your actions, because you will be judged by the media and TV before you are by the courts and that can have a very real outcome on your case.

    I am really dopey right now from the pain meds, I hope that made sense for you.
    You only have power over people so long as you don't take everything away from them. But when you've robbed a man of everything, he's no longer in your power - he's free again. -Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws, but conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. –– Martin Luther King, Jr.

    fiacha5

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    Re: Looking for training for "When to use dealy force and when not to".
    « Reply #10 on: November 18, 2008, 02:23:35 am »
    Hey Jumbo,

       Just a few bits and suggestions, as the others have said know your local laws and know  them well. get as many classes as you can, the more training you have the better you will be able to react to situations, the biggest in my opinion is mindset, if you have the mind set youll be more likely not to have to react. Second is training if your going to carry then train, not just on when to shoot, but how to shoot, and what to shoot.

         I wont tell you any rules, thats for you to decide, but I ll tell you what I do, first thing I do when I put that gun on my person is make my decision to use it if life is threatened. I play the what if game, while Im doing my thing around town, I notice things, where the kids are in the store or resteraunt, what are the ways in and out of this a place, youll hear people talk about the OODA loop and combat sense etc. I learned  the concepts behind those terms. I sit so I can see the door and can get to my gun if something starts, I dont go to places usually that things do happen. Ill walk around the block instead of going down a dark alley.

        I understand in my head what I consider life threatning, I think about it, I look at the costs, taking a life, legal accountability, hours spent in court even if I win, the fact I might not live through a situation if I start shooting. If you take the time to think about these things before it happens, your reactions will be faster and your confidence greater, the more you learn the less chance of making a mistake.
        Learn to really shoot, standing up sitting down, in the drivers seat of your car, down the hall from your bedroom, figure out how youll do it while your thinking about when you need to.
        Get what training you can from local sources and document it,  maybe the local sheriff does a range class, or you have access to an NRA course, get to know the experts in your area, I am always amazed at the amount of skill and training that is there but we dont notice in our neighbors.
         Take another CCW class or two, as mentioned each instructor will give you a little more.

         One last little mention, and its an opinion, I wont shoot for a knee or just pull a gun to wave it around. If I dont feel the need to kill, and I mean kill, Ill say it again kill. another person, the gun stays in its holster. It doesnt mean I have to pull the trigger after  I draw the weapon and there might be a situation where I pull the weapon and the information I have changes in those seconds ( yes  I could draw faster but its a pretty good speed) . But the gun doesnt come out unless I feel life is in danger and I am going to kill.

     Get that training, and get it soon, ( at least and I mean least 40 rounds a month on the range if you pack )

      Good Luck and Peace

         Talk to your friends , your priest or preacher or grandmother, those people that you will turn to afterword and figure out what your willing to do, learn to do it well, and practice , practice,  practice ........

    g.willikers

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    Re: Looking for training for "When to use dealy force and when not to".
    « Reply #11 on: November 20, 2008, 07:30:19 pm »
    And, naturally, we have to know what to practice. There's no substitute for defensive firearms training, from a real training facility.
    Not only learning the legalities, but the survival skills. Legalities won't mean much if we don't suvrive the encounter.
    Since the gun didn't come with an auto pilot, it's up to us to learn how to use it.
    Trust No One

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