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Author Topic: Front Site banner ads.  (Read 7309 times)

Buckeye Redneck

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Front Site banner ads.
« on: May 04, 2010, 09:21:22 pm »
Does anyone else find their claim of "Shoot faster and more accurate than a NAVY SEAL (!! :facepalm!!)  " just a touch asinine, and even a bit insulting??

Just my random thought for the evening.  I'm by no means complaining about the ad being there, just observing that I'd never train at a place that advertises that way.  Seems way too much the same flavor of these:

http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/12gaugeammo.html

No weekend training course is ever going to put you ahead of the finest warriors on the planet...  :bash
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    Thernlund

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 09:24:25 pm »
    Front Sight is an ok training school I understand.  They just have some wingnuts working in the marketing department.  The people doing the training aren't involved in the marketing, and vice-versa I think.


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    KellyTTE

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #2 on: May 05, 2010, 12:30:49 am »
    Yeah Pizza and his whole FS scam/scheme can pound sand. You have to really try to get the NRA to quit taking your money, but his use of the Dinkheller video managed JUST that.

    http://www.ignatius*** -*** piazza-front-sight.com/2010/01/18/ignatius-piazza-stop-screaming-start-shooting/#video

    Broken link, I don't want to drive traffic to this guy.
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    Thernlund

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #3 on: May 05, 2010, 02:29:56 am »
    As I said, marketing by wingnuts (Mr. Piazza being one of them). 

    I often think of Ignatius Piazza as the L. Ron Hubbard of the firearms world.


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    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

    Harm

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #4 on: May 05, 2010, 06:47:10 pm »
    meh marketing doesn't man much to me.  After studying media in college and audience manipulation it all sounds like bulls___ after a while.

    That being said the training at Front Sight is pretty decent quality, for fundamentals.  I wouldn't pay retail for it, but for the memberships, certificates and specials its quite exceptional.  And the facility is pretty topnotch. 

    Regarding the speed of shooting I'm not sure exactly what they are referring to, but I will say that to "graduate" from the course you have to draw from concealment and fire several different "types" of times shots.  Not something NAVY Seals would exactly train for.  Anyways just my 2 bits.  I have no problem with FS.  But I know many do. 

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #5 on: May 05, 2010, 06:55:42 pm »
    I picked up a rumor that it was a "Scientolgy" backed organization. I have been unable to confirm or deny. Their advertising is absolutley over the top. But his idea of a "town" dedicated and filled with gun owning, carring, and trained people doesn't seem like that bad an idea. Crime rate would be low.
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    Thernlund

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #6 on: May 05, 2010, 07:03:16 pm »
    I think most people's problems with FS are principled rather than technical.  I don't think anyone would disagree that the use of the video in marketing material, however slight, is pretty low.


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    KellyTTE

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 08:17:39 pm »
    I think most people's problems with FS are principled rather than technical.

    I don't especially care for the materials either. Watching their students and cadre shoot is painful. Some of it has appeal I'm sure. But it sure strike me that people who like FS's training haven't been exposed to higher end training (CSAT, TigerSwan, VTAC, Larry Vickers, etc).

    Would it be nice to have a city made up of 100% self-responsible, gun savvy citizens? You bet, but the very trait that makes us that type of fiercely independent person is exactly what makes us resistant to that sort of marketing and BS.
    Kelly H
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    Harm

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #8 on: May 06, 2010, 02:06:25 pm »
    Actually just another thought, wasn't there a TV Competition/Game show with Soldiers (including special forces) competing against Civilan Front Sight trained folks?  And the Civilians won IIRC?  Maybe thats what this is based off of...
    ArizonaIn Deo Confido

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #9 on: May 06, 2010, 04:09:35 pm »
    Eh?  I'm not sure what you're referring to exactly, but if by "this" you mean the Dinkheller video (which is what I meant when I said it's use in marketing is a low move), it's not the TV comp.  That video very graphically depicts the brutal murder of Deputy Kyle Dinkheller from his cars camera.  Not exactly comfortable to watch.  Then Piazza goes on to criticize the Deputy's handing of the stop.  That's pretty low.

    Or maybe you're not referring to my comment and I'm confused?


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    Harm

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #10 on: May 06, 2010, 04:24:05 pm »
    No my comment wasn't to you, just to the OT in general.  The add talks about Navy Seals etc.  There was a TV show, The Front Sight Challenge 26 episodes on the Versus Channel, pitting Civilians versus military in shooting scenarios, with most being self defense oriented drills.  I haven't seen the show but I believe the civilians won on a very regular basis (it was apparently a game show similar to fear factor or survivor) with losers leaving after each challenge, and I believe the last man standing was a civilian as well.

    I wondered if perhaps that was what was referrenced in the marketing.  Both groups were very diverse so I'm not sure of the backgrounds of the different competitors. 
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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #11 on: May 06, 2010, 04:28:44 pm »
    Ah.  Gotchya.  My apologies.

    Maybe that was the inspiration for the ad.  :hmm


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    Arizona  Arm yourself because no one else here will save you.  The odds will betray you, and I will replace you...

    Harm

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #12 on: May 06, 2010, 04:29:50 pm »
    Yeah wondering about that myself. 
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    sohmdaddy

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #13 on: May 11, 2010, 11:11:45 pm »
    Do the SEALS do self defense drills? Does Front Sight teach its students how to jump out of airplanes and attach bombs to the undersides of ships?

    I think the SEALs would be doing different types of firearms training. So to say that Front Sight graduates are better than SEALs at stuff that the SEALs don't practice is a little disingenuous.

    It would be like the Utes Football team challenging the BYU women's volleyball team to a game of football. Who going to win? And who would be surprised?

    Harm

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #14 on: May 11, 2010, 11:40:10 pm »
    While I agree with your point I think its a valid marketing point.  How many schools advertise based upon their ability to train the next UBERNINJABLACKDEATHSQUADRON SOLDIERS and just by completing the course you'll be ready for the rampaging hordes of mongollian barbarian BEAR CAVALRY! 

    I didn't see a single course or individual person while I was at front sight who fit the description of "Mall-Ninja."  They were all average joe's looking for better skills with arms, for personal, home and family defense.  Just my 2 bits.
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    akodo

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #15 on: May 12, 2010, 02:32:00 am »
    I picked up a rumor that it was a "Scientolgy" backed organization. I have been unable to confirm or deny. Their advertising is absolutley over the top. But his idea of a "town" dedicated and filled with gun owning, carring, and trained people doesn't seem like that bad an idea. Crime rate would be low.

    People who bought into the idea of the ''town" sued because Piazza kept on promising and didn't do a thing...well, that's not true, he would actually hire guys to go out and dig so it would LOOK like there was work being done to the casual observer.

    He got threatened with fraud charges and sued.  He lost, and had to pay people back.  Later on he started saying he couldn't make the payments without going into bankruptcy  (the idea being, he wanted the lawsuit winners to agree to less vs him go bankrupt and them get nothing) but at the same time all his adverts for membership were bragging about how his enrollment was swelling like crazy and he was making money hand-over-foot using that as proof that people MUST be getting good training for so many to come.  The people who won the lawsuit used those adverts and other info to discredit his claims in front of the original judge.

    His other big 'claim to fame' is if you sign up for a life membership at the cost of $10,000 he gives you 10  $1000 training certificates to give out to friends, (2 guys for 2 days, or 1 guy for 4 days) so in theory the training is free.  He also donates these certificates to charity auctions and takes the face value as a tax writeoff.  You can buy these certificates on Ebay for $150.

    Finally, his instruction and instructors seem hit-or-miss.  Seems like about 80% get good instructors but 20% get really poor instructors.  In the same vein, I have had a people cite the instructor-student ratio seemed to be so far out of whack, some going to far as to say it was bordering on unsafe, and in a class where you could get a truely truely novice shooter, either you were always worried about what the novice was doing next to you unsupervised, OR the 14 other people stood around at watched the novice get 80% of the instructors time.

    I think if someone lived in the area, it would definitely be worth their time to get an ebay certificate and some training, but don't go beyond that. 
    (at least not without shelling out some serious cash and attending training at some other training location like Gunsite or Thunder Ranch, etc)

    Second, as most guys get one certificate and go down for 2 days with a buddy, using the certificate for 1 guy 4 days generally means the last 2 days have fewer people, the novices are gone, etc.  So if going with a buddy spring for 2 certificates not 2 on 1 certificate.  BUT...recently I have heard of guys who did this and after 2 days were simply put back in with a class of brand new folks, rather than taking everyone who had 2 days done 2 days to go and putting them all in one class.

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #16 on: May 12, 2010, 10:18:11 am »
    Sounds kind of complicated.

    Harm

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #17 on: May 12, 2010, 10:35:59 am »
    Akodo you must know more guys who go to FS than I do.  I've got about a dozen friends that all have memberships and go twice a year as a group (to share hotel rooms) and they've never experienced what you've described. 

    Sounds kind of complicated.

    As with most things in life, its never as cut and dried as the haters and fanboys would both have you believe.
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    huey148

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #18 on: May 12, 2010, 11:29:38 am »
    getting back to the claim about shooting better than a Navy SEAL...

    ..sure he can claim that, hell, he can claim that he can train you to shoot better than a space shuttle door gunner...

    SEALS, SF, Rangers, Recon, PJ's, Delta...all those guys are chosen for skill sets that comprise much more than just firearms handling...not the least being that they have proven at some point to be able to drive through mental and physical barriers to accomplish a task long after "normal" people would give up..sure they are good with firearms and most are proficient across a much wider selection of weapons than your average civilian shooter will be...but taken one-on-one in a single discipline there are many people out there that would be better than a military operator, regardless of branch or unit...

    I am sure Bob Leathman, Dave Sevigny and many others in the sport could teach our elite operators a thing or two...but then again probably wouldn't know a thing about a HALO jump into an enemy nations waters, swimming for miles undetected into a harbor, boarding a vessel and commandeering it, securing vital intel assets, scuttling it and then extracting themselves undetected as well...


    ...oh, and btw I have never taken a course through Front Sight or anything so my opinion is in no way directed against their curriculum or their instructors skill set...just saying "buyer beware" with them or any other company out there promising results that may or may not be reasonable...
    « Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 03:13:19 pm by huey148 »
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    Thernlund

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #19 on: May 12, 2010, 11:32:07 am »
    ^^^ That.  Thread win.

    ;)


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    Matthew Mayner

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #20 on: May 13, 2010, 04:01:08 pm »
    While I agree with your point I think its a valid marketing point.  How many schools advertise based upon their ability to train the next UBERNINJABLACKDEATHSQUADRON SOLDIERS and just by completing the course you'll be ready for the rampaging hordes of mongollian barbarian BEAR CAVALRY!

    Hey don't disrespect the Mongolian Barbarian Bear Cavalry, they will mess you up!   ;D

    Here's how I understand marketing.  If you have substance use that.  If you don't use FLASH!   :facepalm
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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #21 on: May 13, 2010, 04:02:26 pm »
    If you can't dazzle them with brillance; baffle them with BS, black magic, and burning owl feathers. :coffee
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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #22 on: May 13, 2010, 05:02:56 pm »
    Did the advert say US Navy SEAL?  Maybe he meant SEALAND Navy SEAL.
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    Thernlund

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    Re: Front Site banner ads.
    « Reply #23 on: May 13, 2010, 05:15:40 pm »
    ^^^^ :rotfl


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