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Author Topic: Okay. I'll be objective:  (Read 11349 times)

MarshallDodge

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Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2010, 03:34:25 pm »
Everybody has different needs for their guns.  Personally I want a carbine with good accuracy and reliability.   90% of the shots I take with my AR are within 100 yards and all of them have been under 350.  At these ranges the gun is capable of hitting a 8" plate with ease. There are quite a few sub $1000 AR's that fit my needs and will give years of good service.  It looks to me like Crusader is playing at a level above this and why not if the niche is already filled.  Spending the extra cash on Noveske barrels is well worth it for those that want that extra edge in accuracy and velocity.

One thing to remember is that In order to wring the most out of these guns you are going to need the ammo to go along with it.  Purchasing a $1700 AR and running Wolf through it is like buying a Ferrari and putting cheap tires on it.  You can't really expect much in the way of performance.  Are you willing to spend the extra cash on some quality loads from Black Hills, Federal Match, etc. or take the time on the range and at the reloading bench figuring out what works best in the gun?


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    tire iron

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #26 on: July 25, 2010, 03:57:01 pm »
    Point taken MD.

    However the analogy isn't totally correct regarding the Ferrari and tires.  It is more like a Ferrari and fuel.  Running 87 Octance Regular would probably damage a Ferrari - it probably needs the Premium stuff.  But - having never owned a Ferrari - I couldn't tell you.

    This is what *I* need in a fighting rifle - it *MUST* reliably shoot Wolf ammo while I am crawling through mud, or sand or dirt or snow or whatever - I shoot Wolf for my "running and gunning" training needs - I shoot the quality ammo when I need to.

    So - if it will run on a steady diet of Wolf with little to no maintenance - that is my kind of rifle.

    If it must be pampered and only fed high quality ammo - I have no interest.


    Gundoctor/George Hill

    Are you guys *parts matching* or *hand fitting*???

    cheers

    tire iron
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    MarshallDodge

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #27 on: July 25, 2010, 04:42:38 pm »
    Point taken MD.

    However the analogy isn't totally correct regarding the Ferrari and tires.  It is more like a Ferrari and fuel.  Running 87 Octance Regular would probably damage a Ferrari - it probably needs the Premium stuff.  But - having never owned a Ferrari - I couldn't tell you.

    This is what *I* need in a fighting rifle - it *MUST* reliably shoot Wolf ammo while I am crawling through mud, or sand or dirt or snow or whatever - I shoot Wolf for my "running and gunning" training needs - I shoot the quality ammo when I need to.

    So - if it will run on a steady diet of Wolf with little to no maintenance - that is my kind of rifle.

    If it must be pampered and only fed high quality ammo - I have no interest.


    But you see that is where my analogy is perfect.  Running Wolf in these guns probably won't damage them and depending on how they set these guns up will probably run just fine.  The hiccup is when you go out and try to shoot that little cloverleaf at 100 yards with Wolf ammo and you get a much larger group than expected.

    If you are shooting cheap ammo through the gun then you are probably not too concerned about tight groups.  There are applications such as hunting, competition, or a sniper role where group size is a necessity.

    Edit to be clear:  Noveske barrels are high quality and when setup correctly have a excellent track record of performing in a battle/CQB role as well.
    "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson

    tire iron

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #28 on: July 26, 2010, 02:10:54 am »
    MD,

    I agree with your post above 100%.  If one were to try and shoot a tight cloverleaf group at 100 yds with Wolf - they would be met with much frustration.  In order to wring out the best the Noveske can do - premium ammo would be the order of the day.

    For running and gunning however - Wolf works just fine for TRAINING/PRACTICE.  It should NOT be considered SHTF ammo.

    cheers

    tire iron
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    Gundoc

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #29 on: July 26, 2010, 02:26:37 pm »
    Ok guys, let me propose something I've been thinking about. Since we had to fire Fidelis (who was making our receivers) I've had to go back and re-source and price everything. It's made for another delay on having everything up on the website. I'm thinking, while I'm at it anyway, of adding a second level of rifles. Same configuration except using high quality barrels and BCG's that aren't from Noveske and therefore a fraction of the price.

    Any thoughts from the group?

    This will take a bit of time because T is very busy at his day job. Yeah we could have someone else add it...but T's work is well worth the wait.

    Vern357

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #30 on: July 26, 2010, 03:37:18 pm »
    I dont it could hurt at all.
    My goal is to be +20/-1000 before 2010!

    Matthew Mayner

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #31 on: July 26, 2010, 05:18:29 pm »
    Sounds good.  $1700 is a lot of scratch for some of us guys with mortgages and kids, and wives.
    IdahoCome check out my blog for more SCI-FI and Fantasy stories. I promise you lots of explosions!

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    Grant

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #32 on: July 26, 2010, 07:49:00 pm »
     And people who are just plain tightwads  ;D 

      But:  I am considering a second AR (Whenever....funds permit...which looks like I might be selling more stuff), and if Crusader came out with some lower-priced lines, I'd look heavily into it.   

    And, I didn't mean no offence ;)  I just have a hard time putting up $1700 for a rifle to fill a role my $740 AR is doing  and I could buy another $900 worth of backup parts/spare rifle.

    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    Avenger29

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #33 on: July 27, 2010, 01:51:22 am »
    There are more than enough companies turning out plinker grade guns...

    Maybe a line in quality with Bravo Company and Daniel Defense- solid components, solid rifles w/o Noveske barrels, but with DD or BCM barrels and BCGs?


    South Carolina
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    tire iron

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #34 on: July 27, 2010, 02:08:16 am »
    I think if you were to build a rifle that doesn't have the Noveske barrel - build one to compete with Bravo Company.   I caution you to do your homework though - as Bravo Company builds the *best* rifle in that category right now.  However - a way to skyrocket your company to right near the top of the heap is to build it the EXACT same way as Bravo does.  Then there will be two rifles at the top.  Bravo and Crusader.

    http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&single=true&gid=5&output=html

    If you don't want to compete against Bravo Company - I would suggest you don't try to put out a AR without the Noveske parts - as there are PLENTY of choices of "also rans" as can be seen in the list.

    cheers

    tire iron
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    Nick Cage

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #35 on: July 27, 2010, 02:47:46 am »
      I just have a hard time putting up $1700 for a rifle to fill a role my $740 AR is doing  and I could buy another $900 worth of backup parts/spare rifle.

    This!

    The only reason I'm interested in the broadsword is because ~1800 - 2200 is about what all good .308 autos are these days.

    I'm not really the target audience for the AR15 market anyhow as I'm an AK guy and my only .223 AR is a target model bushmaster and it is extremely likely its going to stay that way.
    Having said that, a $600 - 700 AR, from folks I kinda know (interwebz know anyhow) would be hard to walk away from, esp. with the slipstream voodoo on it.

    tire iron

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #36 on: July 27, 2010, 03:25:13 am »
    There is absolutely no way to get a *quality* AR - complete - for less than $1,000.00.

    A high quality UPPER can be had for the $600~700 price range - for sure.

    cheers

    tire iron
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    Nick Cage

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #37 on: July 27, 2010, 11:10:55 am »
    There is absolutely no way to get a *quality* AR - complete - for less than $1,000.00.

    A high quality UPPER can be had for the $600~700 price range - for sure.

    cheers

    tire iron

    huh, I'd call bushmaster ARs quality and you can get one of those for about 800, dito for Rock River Arms. Guess it depends what you mean by quality.

    Not tryin to pick a fight here TI, but I don't think the value for most folks between a $1500 AR and an $800 AR is worth the price bump, especially if said AR is lubed properly with Slip Stream.
    I'd pay 1500 or 2k for a good match grade AR if I was shooting Super Expert and hanging out at Camp Perry all the time, but for just plinking around, running drills, shooting the friendly 3 gun match now and again and then protecting the homestead? I really am not personally going to get the extra $700+ of cost worth of value out of an AR, and I really don't think most folk are either.

    I figure a Crusader AR in the 7 - 800 price range would be just as good or better than a bushy or rra and that isn't bad at all. 

    tire iron

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #38 on: July 27, 2010, 11:54:15 am »
    DR1579,

    Did you check out the spreadsheet I linked?  That will explain the difference between a "quality" AR and just another AR.  Nothing personal - but Bushmaster is way over to the right. BCM is top of the heap.  No one surpasses BCM.

    cheers

    tire iron

    UtahAn amateur practices something until he does it right a pro practices something until he can't get it wrong.

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    Vern357

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #39 on: July 27, 2010, 12:20:51 pm »
    TI, not bashing, but that spreadsheet gets passed around a ton, yet those oly arms and other bargain AR's just keep trucking along and getting the job done.  If I can slap ar AR together for 600 that 900 AR better have some cool features.  I say Crusader makes a 1k ar with FF handgaurds (railed) and a YHM flip sight gas block on an A3 reciever, with an 18" barrel, and that would sell like hotcackes because its different than the oethers, but just my 2 bits.
    My goal is to be +20/-1000 before 2010!

    Grant

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #40 on: July 27, 2010, 01:05:24 pm »
      I've seen the sheet...I think it's a good start.

    However not all can be based on it.

    Do I think high-quality parts, such as a "name" FCG,etc. matter? Yes, probably.

    Do I think that it is enough of a differance to warrent 2X the price?...hmm...

    I'd like to see a structured "Shootout", between Colt, Novekse, Crusader, Bushmaster, RRA.etc/.etc.   

    Considering both upper and lower end being properly maintained, I don't forsee the higher $$ ones being 2X more reliable, or go through 2X as many rounds before failure.
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    Nick Cage

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #41 on: July 27, 2010, 01:51:11 pm »
    Grant,
     I think you said what I did only you said it better!

    DR1579,

    Did you check out the spreadsheet I linked?  That will explain the difference between a "quality" AR and just another AR.  Nothing personal - but Bushmaster is way over to the right. BCM is top of the heap.  No one surpasses BCM.

    cheers

    tire iron



    Ok, I get what your saying, not sure I agree, but I understand what your meaning by "quality", also I'm not sure how current that spread sheet is, I think RRA has a staked castle nut now, could be wrong though.

    Yeah I just wrote a few paragraphs detailing my argument but you know what? I'm an AK guy, I like low cost guns that are reliable and reasonably accurate and similar ammo, and lots of them!
    My only AR is a bushmaster heavy barrel target AR-15 that shoots better than I do, just like my NM M1A does. When I see an AR-15 in 16" carbine form I think "how is that worth 2 - 3x what my AKs are?
    That's how I'm wired man, however If Crusader comes out with a $600 - 800 AR-15 that has been all gundoctor voodooed I'll probably be unable to resist it haha.
    Now Bolties and glass that's a different story.

    See ya in the funny papers.


    bmitchell

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #42 on: July 27, 2010, 02:52:41 pm »
    I think the increased reliability/quality/durability is worth more if your life is depending on it often, which isn't the case for most AR owners.
    People like TI, however, need to have the best.  And it's worth the price.

    Ben

    tire iron

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #43 on: July 28, 2010, 02:48:06 am »
    Bushmaster/RRA, etc. will serve most AR users just fine.  However - Bushmaster/RRA, etc. is not known to hold up under *hard use*.  Not many makes are..... there are few makes that can even make it repeatedly through some high tempo, high round count fighting schools.  These schools see trends in what works, and what doesn't.  The consensus is that the closer one gets to the left side of that spreadsheet - the longer that rifle will last under hard use.

    And just to be fair - AK's have their own set of problems/issues too.

    Which underscores the fact that WHATEVER rifle type one chooses (AR/AK/Whatever) - if the primary mission of that rifle is a *hard use* rifle - one had better get the best built, using the best parts, rifle.  Otherwise - there will be failures.

    If one doesn't need that level of hardware - then one needant spend the dough on one.  (However - just to be fair - it is not like we are talking about HUNDREDS of dollars difference in price either - the difference in price between a bare bones BCM upper - which is the benchmark - and a bare bones Bushmaster or RRA is less than $100 bucks - actually closer to $80 bucks.  That is an EASY eighty bucks for me to spend.)

    cheers

    tire iron
    UtahAn amateur practices something until he does it right a pro practices something until he can't get it wrong.

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    ZeroTA

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #44 on: July 28, 2010, 08:54:12 am »
    Quote from: moose42
    Sounds good.  $1700 is a lot of scratch for some of us guys with mortgages and kids, and wives.

    That it is. But...

    Quote from: Grant
    Considering both upper and lower end being properly maintained, I don't forsee the higher $$ ones being 2X more reliable, or go through 2X as many rounds before failure.

    What if it's only 1.2x more reliable, or goes 1.2x longer with no stoppages? That could still save your ass in a pinch. Diminishing returns, some would call it - but you have to decide if it's worth it for your applications.

    The appeal to me is that a Crusader with premium parts really seems that it's as good or better than anything else out there. A down-graded Crusader with "good" parts will have a lot more competition.

    Kinda funny that I'm waffling on this, when I've got three 1911's with at least $1500 apiece in them.
    I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't.

    Avenger29

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    Re: Okay. I'll be objective:
    « Reply #45 on: July 28, 2010, 11:33:07 am »
    Quote
    Do I think that it is enough of a differance to warrent 2X the price?...hmm...

    You might have an argument if higher quality rifles were 2x the price of the ah, economy brands.


    Oh, wait, they aren't. I've seen BCMs go for the same price as Bushmasters. I've seen Daniel Defence guns go for the same price. The days of having to pay $200-300 more for a true quality AR are gone...there is absolutely no reason to "settle" for less.



    South Carolina
    I don't THINK I'll ever have to face down routers in the streets.

    I should hope not. Mobs of rogue woodworking tools would suck to repel.

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