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Author Topic: Where is the point of no return?  (Read 11686 times)

Maestro

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Re: Where is the point of no return?
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2021, 04:50:19 am »
I'll start by saying that everything that follows is opinion:

Opportunistic a**holes take any opportunity they are given to steal. That happened during every event discussed in this thread.

Violent a**holes take any opportunity to hurt people or cause damage. That happened during every event discussed in this thread.

The point being that some (left wing and right wing) media outlets, politicians, and pundits have taken the stance that one set of actions is okay and the other is not. I honestly think that is the problem most folks have. Being told that the violence and crime by one side was justified while the other was not. Frankly, I don't think either was justified. I point again to this article from the left leaning Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/americans-killed-protests-political-unrest-acled

That level of violence is ridiculous.  And it came from both sides of the political spectrum.

All that said, I will paraphrase Larry Correia. The BLM and ANTIFA folks seem to have this sliding spectrum of violence and protest, from 1 being a gathering of folks with signs to 10 being outright arson, looting, and attacks. The right wing groups, however, only seem to have an on/off setting. So far, these idiots took an opportunity when presented with it and went into the Capitol building and acted like fools. Not all of them to be sure. But plenty of them. There may even have been a very few of them who might have had the intention to do just that, but we are talking only a couple individuals. This was NOT the insurrection or coup that so many are worried about. If it were to ever happen, then there wouldn't be any doubt.

Just a reminder that any large group of people is only as intelligent as the least intelligent member of the group. So I will not be participating in any large group rallies or events for any political event. I'd hate to bring the average intelligence down any further  :D
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    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: Where is the point of no return?
    « Reply #101 on: January 21, 2021, 12:34:36 pm »
    I'll start by saying that everything that follows is opinion:

    Opportunistic a**holes take any opportunity they are given to steal. That happened during every event discussed in this thread.

    Violent a**holes take any opportunity to hurt people or cause damage. That happened during every event discussed in this thread.

    The point being that some (left wing and right wing) media outlets, politicians, and pundits have taken the stance that one set of actions is okay and the other is not. I honestly think that is the problem most folks have. Being told that the violence and crime by one side was justified while the other was not. Frankly, I don't think either was justified. I point again to this article from the left leaning Guardian:
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/americans-killed-protests-political-unrest-acled

    That level of violence is ridiculous.  And it came from both sides of the political spectrum.

    All that said, I will paraphrase Larry Correia. The BLM and ANTIFA folks seem to have this sliding spectrum of violence and protest, from 1 being a gathering of folks with signs to 10 being outright arson, looting, and attacks. The right wing groups, however, only seem to have an on/off setting. So far, these idiots took an opportunity when presented with it and went into the Capitol building and acted like fools. Not all of them to be sure. But plenty of them. There may even have been a very few of them who might have had the intention to do just that, but we are talking only a couple individuals. This was NOT the insurrection or coup that so many are worried about. If it were to ever happen, then there wouldn't be any doubt.

    Just a reminder that any large group of people is only as intelligent as the least intelligent member of the group. So I will not be participating in any large group rallies or events for any political event. I'd hate to bring the average intelligence down any further  :D

    Quoted for truth.
    IllinoisAfter a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

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    SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

    Doug Wojtowicz

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    Re: Where is the point of no return?
    « Reply #102 on: January 21, 2021, 01:00:43 pm »
    What are they scared of? Being killed by police? Being killed by white people?

    Is the fear they feel rational and based on facts or just feelings?

    I have never found any statistical data to show black individuals should fear the police more than any other race OR fear white people more than any other race. If we wish to go by data then blacks should be deathly afraid of other black individuals. A black individual is 28 times more likely to be killed by another black individual than a white individual(police or not). Blacks commit over 50% of the homicide in the US.

    I am not saying this with any malice. Just the numbers never add up that blacks should fear whites.

    Per capita, for the same crimes, black people are 3.5x more likely to be killed over a police interaction than it is for a white perpetrator.

    Cases like
    Anton Hill - shown unarmed and only holding a phone shot and not given EMS treatment.
    Casey Goodson Jr. - shot because of an alleged gun waving incident of which only one police officer reported - the one who took it under his own impetus to follow him home and shoot him as he was akimbo wielding a bag of Subway sammiches and his house keys, and was again denied medical treatment to keep him from dying after he was no longer a threat.
    Elijah McClain - a young nerd who complied, and yet was still put in a carotid headlock which cut off the flow of blood to his brain requiring EMS to come... and then EMS gave him a lethal dose of Ketamine, a horse tranquilizer.
    Lionel Womack - a retired police officer who should "know better and have complied" STILL ran from cops and then was hit and injured by a Deputy (as another squad car called in followed and filmed the pursuit).
    Quawan Charles - whom was not slain by police, but the Baldwin sheriff's office which should have issued an Amber Alert dismissed his family's concerns over their missing son.
    Devon Gregory - who was being driven home from work, and either shot himself in the head out of sheer terror at what a half dozen officers and K-9's would do to them when they pulled him out of his brother's vehicle, the gunshot sparking a salvo of 35 shots into the car, or was begging officers to tell his family he loves them before he reached for a weapon he didn't even know was in the car.
    Botham Jean - who was mistaken for a home intruder in his own living room, with ice cream and in his pajamas...
    Breonna Taylor - who was asleep when a No-Knock warrant was served AT THE WRONG ADDRESS.
    Sandra Bland - who suffered injuries and "somehow died" in police custody for a mere traffic stop.

    (I'm not including Jacob Blake who was stealing his wife's car and abducting his children. I'm not including Michael Brown who was trying to tear a gun out of an officer's holster to kill him. I'm not including Rayshard Brooks who actually took a police weapon and thus could injure an officer and take THEIR gun.)

    The list of questionable shootings and the need for civilian review of these shootings is exactly a terror.

    Black mothers have, what I feel, is a valid fear of their children being summarily executed for having a counterfeit $20 bill, selling cigarettes without a license or tax stamp, or playing in the park with a toy gun.

    IllinoisAfter a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

    -William Burroughs

    SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

    Doug Wojtowicz

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    IllinoisAfter a shooting spree, they want to take the guns away from everyone who didn't do it.

    -William Burroughs

    SJW is not a synonym of "leftists" or "liberals". Left-wing and right-wing positions are based on economics. SJWs are left-authoritarians which means that they are not liberals. Don't paint all leftists or liberals with the same (misguided) brush.

    Plebian

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    Re: Where is the point of no return?
    « Reply #104 on: January 21, 2021, 02:54:26 pm »
    Per capita, for the same crimes, black people are 3.5x more likely to be killed over a police interaction than it is for a white perpetrator.

    Cases like
    Anton Hill - shown unarmed and only holding a phone shot and not given EMS treatment.
    Casey Goodson Jr. - shot because of an alleged gun waving incident of which only one police officer reported - the one who took it under his own impetus to follow him home and shoot him as he was akimbo wielding a bag of Subway sammiches and his house keys, and was again denied medical treatment to keep him from dying after he was no longer a threat.
    Elijah McClain - a young nerd who complied, and yet was still put in a carotid headlock which cut off the flow of blood to his brain requiring EMS to come... and then EMS gave him a lethal dose of Ketamine, a horse tranquilizer.
    Lionel Womack - a retired police officer who should "know better and have complied" STILL ran from cops and then was hit and injured by a Deputy (as another squad car called in followed and filmed the pursuit).
    Quawan Charles - whom was not slain by police, but the Baldwin sheriff's office which should have issued an Amber Alert dismissed his family's concerns over their missing son.
    Devon Gregory - who was being driven home from work, and either shot himself in the head out of sheer terror at what a half dozen officers and K-9's would do to them when they pulled him out of his brother's vehicle, the gunshot sparking a salvo of 35 shots into the car, or was begging officers to tell his family he loves them before he reached for a weapon he didn't even know was in the car.
    Botham Jean - who was mistaken for a home intruder in his own living room, with ice cream and in his pajamas...
    Breonna Taylor - who was asleep when a No-Knock warrant was served AT THE WRONG ADDRESS.
    Sandra Bland - who suffered injuries and "somehow died" in police custody for a mere traffic stop.

    (I'm not including Jacob Blake who was stealing his wife's car and abducting his children. I'm not including Michael Brown who was trying to tear a gun out of an officer's holster to kill him. I'm not including Rayshard Brooks who actually took a police weapon and thus could injure an officer and take THEIR gun.)

    The list of questionable shootings and the need for civilian review of these shootings is exactly a terror.

    Black mothers have, what I feel, is a valid fear of their children being summarily executed for having a counterfeit $20 bill, selling cigarettes without a license or tax stamp, or playing in the park with a toy gun.

    Per capita that is correct. Per police interaction they are less likely to die from police than whites. The individual actions that you point out should be addressed, but the statistics just do not follow that police as a whole need some sort of correction when dealing with black individuals.

    You have a population making up under 14% of the nation committing over 50% of the murders. That fits nicely with that 3.5 times number of deaths per capita. So just dealing with murderers the police are interacting with 3.5 times more black than white individuals. 

    You also have the issue of blacks killing whites at 16% of white deaths. Where whites killing blacks are 8% of black deaths.

    I fully understand feelings are important when addressing things, but if those feelings are based on just feelings and not objective facts/data. It becomes very hard to systematically address those issues as the system is functioning in a fair manner.

    I know you will just dismiss this as it doesn't fit the narrative being espoused these days, and I truly hate bringing up the statistics on these issues.

    Just if we are truly wishing to save black lives. Would we not want to address the nearly 90% of all murders first?

    If you wish to double check statistics or my numbers. The FBI database is yours to check just as I have. It is hard to find these numbers painted in anyway but POLICE BAD and WHITES BAD in any news source but the raw data is free to the public.

    You can also bring up income inequality as the cause of black murders/criminal behavior, but since we have double the population of whites below the poverty line than blacks. This angle doesn't stand up either.       
    « Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 03:09:41 pm by Plebian »
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    booksmart

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    Re: Where is the point of no return?
    « Reply #105 on: January 21, 2021, 05:36:49 pm »
    Per capita that is correct. Per police interaction they are less likely to die from police than whites. The individual actions that you point out should be addressed, but the statistics just do not follow that police as a whole need some sort of correction when dealing with black individuals.

    Wrong.

    Quote
    According to The Guardian's database, in 2016 the rate of fatal police shootings per million was 10.13 for Native Americans, 6.6 for black people, 3.23 for Hispanics; 2.9 for white people and 1.17 for Asians.[12] In absolute numbers, police kill more white people than any other race or ethnicity, however this must be understood in light of the fact that white people make up the largest proportion of the US population.[43] As a percentage of the U.S. population, black Americans were 2.5 times more likely than whites to be killed by the police in 2015.[43] A 2015 study found that unarmed blacks were 3.49 times more likely to be shot by police than were unarmed whites.[13] Another study published in 2016 concluded that the mortality rate of legal interventions among black and Hispanic people was 2.8 and 1.7 times higher than that among white people. Another 2015 study concluded that black people were 2.8 times more likely to be killed by police than whites. They also concluded that black people were more likely to be unarmed than white people who were in turn more likely to be unarmed than Hispanic people shot by the police.[44][45] A 2018 study in the American Journal of Public Health found the mortality rate by police per 100,000 was 1.9 to 2.4 for black men, 0.8 to 1.2 for Hispanic men and 0.6 to 0.7 for white men.[46] A 2020 study found "strong and statistically reliable evidence of anti-Black racial disparities in the killing of unarmed Americans by police in 2015–2016."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_deadly_force_in_the_United_States#:~:text=A%202018%20study%20in%20the,to%200.7%20for%20white%20men.

    booksmart

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    LowKey

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    Re: Where is the point of no return?
    « Reply #107 on: January 21, 2021, 07:32:44 pm »
    1 in 5?  OMG, 20%  were vets!!!!!
    Panic!!!!!
     :neener :neener :neener :neener :neener

    So less than half of half of the demonstrators at the Capitol building were/are veterans.
      :coffee

    Nearly 1 In 5 Defendants In Capitol Riot Cases Served In The Military

    https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/958915267/nearly-one-in-five-defendants-in-capitol-riot-cases-served-in-the-military?fbclid=IwAR2kP_VB-pJniHwxAyd_9N1HBI0YJcyI89-6qKh3gP-9on07DATDnTwi1O8

    Portland Police Charge 8 After Demonstrators Vandalize Democratic Party Offices
    https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/959109593/portland-police-charge-8-after-demonstrators-vandalize-democratic-party-offices?fbclid=IwAR26WLGuICqQq-dvAG94emoNX1T4eQtNqa8EP98cAEX3lZNJp8z6I76Rmek

    Gonna haveta disagree with Larry, too...

    Plebian

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    Re: Where is the point of no return?
    « Reply #108 on: January 21, 2021, 10:03:32 pm »
    Wrong.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_deadly_force_in_the_United_States#:~:text=A%202018%20study%20in%20the,to%200.7%20for%20white%20men.

    Your source is only going by per capita numbers, NOT per police interactions. It also doesn't take into consideration records or actions of those killed. It is a source compiled by The Guardian, and this particular source has been questioned a few times on their data collection.

    Also to use wikipedia as a YOUR source for anything is questionable.

    If you wish to question why blacks are interacting with police so often. Then that has some standing, and it likely needs to be looked into for causes. Just all the data I have ever seen on data PER POLICE ENCOUNTER. Shows it works out to whites being slightly more likely to be killed by officers than blacks, hispanic or native. But it is not by much for any particular race or even unknown individuals. I would assume this is just a large numbers problem. Since whites are interacted with most often by police, given they are the largest segment of the population. 

    I mean it took me mere seconds of internet investigation to see the source Wiki used. Look at that source then find how they collected the data, and then to find many, many questions on their data collection with clearly poor sourcing of the data The Guardian used. The Guardian seems to like to ignore some data if it doesn't fit well. 

    This is pretty understandable once you look at the source, The Guardian, and understand they are left for even left wing UK politics.

    All the data I have used is from FBI Expanded Homicide data, US department of Justice and/or Reuters compilations of said data. I hope Reuters is a good enough source for some of the compilation data, as I think they are one of the most accepted/unbiased news source out there.

    If we start lining up numbers to jive in logical ways it begins to make sense. Black individuals commit crimes and interact with police at about 3.5 times the rate of white individuals. Black individuals are killed by police at about a rate of 3.5 times more than white individuals. That sure seems to correlate pretty well to explain the difference per capita.   
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    Maestro

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    Re: Where is the point of no return?
    « Reply #109 on: January 22, 2021, 04:38:39 am »

    Gonna haveta disagree with Larry, too...

    I'm going to have to agree with Larry actually. The vast majority of those on the right look at your above cases and shake their heads at little kids throwing a temper tantrum. Not any kind of organized activity. I only paraphrased Larry to point out that the Capitol Hill debacle was NOT any kind of truly organized insurrection or coup attempt as has been suggested by several media sources.

    Even those who agree with the ideas that spawned their actions (stolen election, erosion of rights, whatever), still look at them with a snicker and a shake of the head. What these folks have done so far is no insurrection. It is, as I said, a temper tantrum.

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    booksmart

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    Re: Where is the point of no return?
    « Reply #110 on: January 22, 2021, 02:19:33 pm »
    Your source is only going by per capita numbers, NOT per police interactions. It also doesn't take into consideration records or actions of those killed. It is a source compiled by The Guardian, and this particular source has been questioned a few times on their data collection.

    Also to use wikipedia as a YOUR source for anything is questionable.

    If you wish to question why blacks are interacting with police so often. Then that has some standing, and it likely needs to be looked into for causes. Just all the data I have ever seen on data PER POLICE ENCOUNTER. Shows it works out to whites being slightly more likely to be killed by officers than blacks, hispanic or native. But it is not by much for any particular race or even unknown individuals. I would assume this is just a large numbers problem. Since whites are interacted with most often by police, given they are the largest segment of the population. 

    I mean it took me mere seconds of internet investigation to see the source Wiki used. Look at that source then find how they collected the data, and then to find many, many questions on their data collection with clearly poor sourcing of the data The Guardian used. The Guardian seems to like to ignore some data if it doesn't fit well. 

    This is pretty understandable once you look at the source, The Guardian, and understand they are left for even left wing UK politics.

    All the data I have used is from FBI Expanded Homicide data, US department of Justice and/or Reuters compilations of said data. I hope Reuters is a good enough source for some of the compilation data, as I think they are one of the most accepted/unbiased news source out there.

    If we start lining up numbers to jive in logical ways it begins to make sense. Black individuals commit crimes and interact with police at about 3.5 times the rate of white individuals. Black individuals are killed by police at about a rate of 3.5 times more than white individuals. That sure seems to correlate pretty well to explain the difference per capita.   

    You missed a line.

    Quote
    Another study published in 2016 concluded that the mortality rate of legal interventions among black and Hispanic people was 2.8 and 1.7 times higher than that among white people.

    Yeah, I'd consider Reuters a good source. Like I've said, they and the AP are rigorous in their fact checking. I'll see what I find on their site.

    Plebian

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    Re: Where is the point of no return?
    « Reply #111 on: January 22, 2021, 04:47:48 pm »
    You missed a line.

    Yeah, I'd consider Reuters a good source. Like I've said, they and the AP are rigorous in their fact checking. I'll see what I find on their site.

    Again, the study they use goes by per capita instead of by police interaction per capita. They are not saying per police intervention. They are simply saying the mortality rate of legal interventions among black and hispanic works out to 2.8 and 1.7 times higher than whites PER CAPITA. I know the wording is funky. That is why I usually just ignore what places like The Guardian say and go straight to their sources. IF they even provide such.

    I have looked at these data sets WAY more than I ever wish to do so. It was very shocking to me to see a continuous set of obvious manipulation of reporting on data. It actually follows the same trend for gun violence and overall violence reporting.

    I assume the old, 'if it bleeds. It leads.', has just been exacerbated with the internet and the death of old media/reporting.

    I would assume saying violence overall is at historic lows per capita, interracial violence is at all time lows, and the murder rate in general has been steadily declining, doesn't sell very well.

    I truly wish sociologists were free to look into racial differences, but it is basically a death sentence for your career if you do. I understand it is a delicate subject and the NAZIs ruined it, but it would be very good to study these things in depth without assuming a conclusion and finding data to support it.     
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    coelacanth

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    Re: Where is the point of no return?
    « Reply #112 on: January 22, 2021, 06:26:03 pm »
    Indeed. But it's been shown that there have been 900 documented protests on the one side. Seventeen deaths and a police station burned down.

    Those were in response to the fear of being executed by gunshot or strangling among an entire community literally in fear of never returning home from walking down the street.

    The other protest was in response to the Georgia Secretary of State not finding 11,800 more ballots sitting around somewhere.

     :coffee

    Truly, coelecanth, you are one of the best members on this board and why I missed it. 
    Well thanks Doug, I appreciate that and take it as a compliment.  That said, I believe I'm going to line up with Plebian and Maestro in their recent posts and remind you and booksmart - and all the rest of us - that cherry picking data to reinforce the point you're trying to make is a debate tactic.  At best it is an academic exercise and at worst the game played by lawyers when other people's lives are on the line.  If you seek objective truth you cannot ignore or conceal inconvenient facts or even ignore an unexplained dearth of data that ought to be evident but isn't.  The fact that you don't understand something or disagree with the conclusions others may draw from it is the most compelling reason it must be examined and understood completely for your own peace of mind and credibility. 

    None of what is being discussed in this thread exists in a vacuum and we cannot treat it as though it did if we seek objective truth.  You know, the kind that forces us all to sit quietly and acknowledge we cannot truly see any issue from the other person's point of view.  The kind that forces us to acknowledge that our pattern recognition skills may have led us astray because we quit looking objectively at a problem once we thought we understood it. The kind that may lead us to the conclusion we are still wrestling with the same problem(s) we were 20,000 years ago and maybe we are no better equipped to solve them than our ancestors were. 

    We have some new problems but they have just been heaped on top of the old ones we still struggle with. 

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