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General Topics => Activism and Gun Politics => Topic started by: Grognard on January 06, 2021, 07:15:35 pm

Title: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Grognard on January 06, 2021, 07:15:35 pm
it's January 6th.
my heart breaks for our Country.  I love America. :'(
But today, a group of fed-up, un-armed Patriotic demonstrators stormed our Capitol building.
for their efforts, dozens have been injured and/or arrested by Law Enforcement.
And one un-armed female Patriot was gunned down/murdered by Law Enforcement.

I'm highly distressed by these actions and the treasonous political fraud that triggered them.

But I was told today, that if I was included in today's activities (which I was not), I would be out of a job and lose my security clearance: basically, my entire livelihood.

I have used mail, telephone and email to express my disapproval to my elected representatives; from the County, to the State and National level.  I've used those same methods to encourage our Judiciary to recognize the Elephant in the room.

All to no avail.

Y'all are Americans, and have heard the allusion of "The Boxes". 
The Soap Box, The Voting Box, The Jury Box and the Ammo Box.
The Soap box is thoroughly controlled by people who hate America.  What is left of it allows us to fart in a hurricane.
The Voting box has been absolutely circumvented and completely contaminated to be useless.
The Jury box has been slowly made inconsequential and a mere rubber stamp for the socialist oligarchs that wish to rule us.
which leaves...
The Ammo box:
the really really bad one.
the one box that scares us s___less and rightly so. (because we've all witnessed what happens in failed societies)
the one box that no sane American even wants to consider.
We the 2A supporters have leaned on its threat for decades ... "oh,we have all the guns and outnumber all the cops and the military ...dont make us angry"
The one box, I do not want to employ it, nor see it employed in my name.

I do not encourage sedition nor countenance treason: even tho we've all watched the Progressive Socialist Uber-Left wallow in both for all of 2016-2020.

but after this year and this election and, and, and...

at what point, at which line... is THE point of no return?

where do we, or where is, THE LINE drawn?



Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: MTK20 on January 06, 2021, 07:29:15 pm
I'm revisiting WTA, just for this.

I hate to say it, but there is no line. I feel that the events as written in Peter Nealen's fiction will be how things go.

What I mean by that is there's a war, but it'll always be cold. It'll be a modern power struggle via internet and the information age.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: coelacanth on January 06, 2021, 08:57:16 pm
The point of no return was passed on the way to the box you forgot to mention - you know, the one we just opened.  Pandora's Box.   :coffee
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Kaso on January 06, 2021, 09:18:11 pm
In case anyone thinks these freaks actually support our president:
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: MTK20 on January 07, 2021, 09:55:34 am
In case anyone thinks these freaks actually support our president:


Interesting  :hmm
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: sqlbullet on January 07, 2021, 11:24:58 am
OTOH.

I can see ANTIFA/BLM disguising themselves in Trump flags. 

Bedsheets with Mormon scripture quotes not so much:

(https://preview.redd.it/8yaf0f8c8s961.jpg?width=1024&auto=webp&s=e3ac54e7029cfd27823911cb0a9ed2f74c4854e4)
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: MTK20 on January 07, 2021, 01:27:02 pm
One of the things I've been hearing from word of mouth on the ground over here is: "The cops were too gentle! They took forever to do anything, but when BLM was protesting, they got shut down by the cops immediately. "

They're trying to make this into a race issue. I can't help but feel this is similar to when you have two dogs, give them equal bowls of food, and both immediately go to the other's thinking the other dog got the better treatment.

Both sides moved way out of the realm of "protest" and both were shut down by law enforcement. Yet instead of focusing on the issues at hand, we keep going back to class warfare and identity politics  :hmm .
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Plebian on January 07, 2021, 05:30:56 pm
There will be no line. People are far too fat and entertained to do much of anything.

They will pick those off that stand up one by one. That person will be just another extremist. They will be one of THOSE people.

 
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: LowKey on January 08, 2021, 12:39:06 am
The point of no return?

Crossed sometime between 1945 and approximately 1970 when the majority of the populace stopped paying attention and holding the elected accountable.   

Everyone wanted their palms greased, everyone wanted "their side" to win no matter the cost.  Integrity and honor went out the window.  We've been on a slow slide ever since.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: sqlbullet on January 08, 2021, 09:04:50 am
The point of no return?

Crossed sometime between 1945 and approximately 1970 when the majority of the populace stopped paying attention and holding the elected accountable.   

Everyone wanted their palms greased, everyone wanted "their side" to win no matter the cost.  Integrity and honor went out the window.  We've been on a slow slide ever since.


This.  And everyone wants to think this is everyone else.  But it's not.  This is not them, but all of us. 

Case in point is Kaso's post above.  Those guys are not antifa.  They are known neo-nazis and skinheads.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Heimbach

https://phillyantifa.org/keystone-united-exposed-day-15-jason-tankersley/

Not going to mention Jake Angeli, AKA QAnon Shaman who is a far right activist because the the references I have are all very recent and therefore subject to the idea that they were fabricated recently.

We can't just reject information we don't like, or that contradicts our position on the basis that we also don't like the source.  And we can't just accept information that supports our position without carefully vetting it.  Pessimistic induction suggest we should be more accepting of contradicting information and more suspicious of supporting data.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 08, 2021, 11:08:46 am

Not going to mention Jake Angeli, AKA QAnon Shaman who is a far right activist because the the references I have are all very recent and therefore subject to the idea that they were fabricated recently.


The guy in the fur hat, with the buffalo horns?  *nods* I've seen multiple photos of him at Trump rallies, with various QAnon posters.

I *told* you you needed to pay attention to that BS.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: NukMed on January 08, 2021, 11:12:02 am
So, when I saw the reports of what went on in DC Wednesday, a couple of things occurred to me regarding the peoples’ purpose in going into the capital:

1.   If the purpose was to protest the election in support of Trump, call for redress of grievances, and gain sympathy to that cause, then they overstepped.  They should have never entered the building.  It just gives ammunition to those they claim stole the election.
Accusations are flying about Antifa infiltrators instigating the vandalism and entry into the building.
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2021/01/jon-rappoport/was-the-assault-on-the-capitol-building-a-false-flag/
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2021/01/ginny-garner/did-peaceful-rally-end-in-false-flag-with-antifa/
If true, letting outsiders sidetrack them seems like a big fail too.

2.   If entering the capital building is an act of rebellion brought on by loss of rights, the frustration that the election is a fraud, and the realization that only violence will right these wrongs, then they half-a$$ed it.   Why wasn’t the capital building burned down?  Why were none of the Congress lynched?  Heck, I’m not sure I even saw any litter outside the building (trashed offices notwithstanding). 

It seems to me that whatever they wanted to achieve, either way they failed.  The leftist politicians and press are having a field day with this.  It will all be used as an excuse to push for more restrictions and loss of rights.


Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 08, 2021, 11:32:46 am
All of the calls I'm seeing for repercussions are against Trump himself, for inciting the crowd, and against those that entered the Capitol building. 

I haven't seen anything calling for 1st Amendment restrictions, etc.  Doesn't mean it won't come, but it's not happening in the heat of the moment, which makes it less likely.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: NukMed on January 08, 2021, 11:41:20 am
All of the calls I'm seeing for repercussions are against Trump himself, for inciting the crowd, and against those that entered the Capitol building. 

I haven't seen anything calling for 1st Amendment restrictions, etc.  Doesn't mean it won't come, but it's not happening in the heat of the moment, which makes it less likely.

I stand by my prediction. Maybe it's the cynic in me, but I think things will get worse before they get better.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 08, 2021, 12:07:31 pm
Here's to hoping you're wrong. *offers you a beer*
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: RetroGrouch on January 08, 2021, 12:36:05 pm
To use one of my favorite movie quotes "I got a bad feeling about this".  My wife and friends have been doing the "humor the crazy person" look when I talk about it. I spend too much time on the internet reading various forums.  The normal blowing off of steam and such dropped off substantially in the past couple of weeks.  You know those scenes in movies where people are out in the woods and they say "It's quiet, too quiet"?  Like that.

The B&E of the Capital building isn't the event that all that pent up energy (and possible planning) was going towards, there is something bigger coming, in my opinion.


The invoking the 25th Amendment or Impeachment could be the point of no return.  Or nationwide gun confiscation.  It's kind of like the old line on what is pornography "I can't give you a definition, but I'll know it when I see it".




Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 08, 2021, 12:55:39 pm
You don't think inciting a crowd to riot and storm the capitol building is grounds for impeachment?
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: sqlbullet on January 08, 2021, 02:06:53 pm
You don't think inciting a crowd to riot and storm the capitol building is grounds for impeachment?

I think given the 12 days left in office, it is a distraction we don't need.

Or nationwide gun confiscation.

This is the one that I think, if it happens, will cause some real widespread unrest.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: sqlbullet on January 08, 2021, 02:18:49 pm
What we do need is consistent messaging from the leaders on the right that this is NOT the way.  One of the people that buys deeply into this, who is not completely stable, is gonna take a shot, literally, at Joe Biden.  That is NOT going to be good for our gun rights.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: LowKey on January 08, 2021, 11:03:54 pm
You don't think inciting a crowd to riot and storm the capitol building is grounds for impeachment?
Did he actually ask for them to do that, or did he simply keep beating the dead horse proclaiming that their was fraud and that the election was stolen?  Ask them to do it directly, or even in the "...rid me of this troublesome priest" manner? :shrug

Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: LowKey on January 08, 2021, 11:10:05 pm
I suspect they will keep vilifying him and persecuting him long after he has left office, mostly as an example to others who in the future might try to actually drain the swamp instead of simply making empty promises to do so.

As for the average Joe who supported Trump?   
Wait for the labeling as domestic terrorists, ect.
Followed by stripping of 2A rights, via Red Flag or other fig leaves as well as effectively stripping them of 1A Rights through Big Tech's auspices.

All of the calls I'm seeing for repercussions are against Trump himself, for inciting the crowd, and against those that entered the Capitol building. 

I haven't seen anything calling for 1st Amendment restrictions, etc.  Doesn't mean it won't come, but it's not happening in the heat of the moment, which makes it less likely.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: coelacanth on January 09, 2021, 01:31:30 pm
To use one of my favorite movie quotes "I got a bad feeling about this".  My wife and friends have been doing the "humor the crazy person" look when I talk about it. I spend too much time on the internet reading various forums.  The normal blowing off of steam and such dropped off substantially in the past couple of weeks.  You know those scenes in movies where people are out in the woods and they say "It's quiet, too quiet"?  Like that.

The B&E of the Capital building isn't the event that all that pent up energy (and possible planning) was going towards, there is something bigger coming, in my opinion.


The invoking the 25th Amendment or Impeachment could be the point of no return.  Or nationwide gun confiscation.  It's kind of like the old line on what is pornography "I can't give you a definition, but I'll know it when I see it".





It can't rightly be called "B&E" when the capitol police open a locked door and stand aside while people calmly enter the building and walk up the steps.   :coffee   

https://www.dailywire.com/news/we-need-answers-congressman-calls-for-investigation-after-video-appears-to-show-police-allowing-rioters-into-capitol-building
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: RetroGrouch on January 09, 2021, 02:02:19 pm
If the Dems have two brain cells to rub together, they won’t try to 25th Amendment or to impeach President Trump a second time.  It would make him an even BIGGER martyr than he is now.


But they don’t, and will keep banging the drum until Senile Joe is inaugurated. At which point the most likely target of an untimely death will be Kamala, since Joe won’t make it a year in the office before the dementia is full blown, and Hillary still has delusions of being the first female President.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: RetroGrouch on January 09, 2021, 02:03:29 pm
It can't rightly be called "B&E" when the capitol police open a locked door and stand aside while people calmly enter the building and walk up the steps.   :coffee   

https://www.dailywire.com/news/we-need-answers-congressman-calls-for-investigation-after-video-appears-to-show-police-allowing-rioters-into-capitol-building

Sorry I was going by initial news reports. 
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: kunkmiester on January 09, 2021, 04:19:15 pm
How's allsides as a source?
https://www.allsides.com/blog/capitol-hill-breach-riot-coverage-demonstrates-media-bias
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: luke213(adamsholsters) on January 10, 2021, 06:41:33 pm
One thing to note about this whole thing, and I'm not saying it's credible but it's been reported. Put on your tin foil hat a little here;)

What if the goal wasn't just to stir the pot and the goal was to get the tech from inside, hard drives etc. If that's the case then they succeeded, not that it changes the outcome at this point. But I've seen lots of reports that tech went missing particularly from Pelosi etc. What else we saw could very well be the diversion of sorts, and who knows what will come down the road as a result.

Now I'm not taking a position on the whole thing as a whole, I just found that fact rather interesting. And as a whole it's hard to make a lot of sense of the things that happened etc.

As far as a line etc, Well I've talked about that in the past and my opinion hasn't changed but I also have zero idea how to put this particular train back on the tracks. And I haven't seen any indication that the majority of the country is willing to either. So bit pessimistic but I don't see a way off the path we're currently on.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Grognard on January 11, 2021, 01:16:37 am
I'm still just ....  :facepalm Only the BBC reported that Trump told protesters:Go Home x3Go in Peace x2election was fraudulent x1.
"but he instigated the riot" .. phfttttt.
OTOH: if this was supposed to be the "great revolution" they did a s___ty job of communicating and organizing it, much less executing it.  Even the liberal activists are saying so.
I was not there.  I was at home, working.I do have a couple who are friend of a friend who did go to the protest.They went to the primary site, did their protest activity, then followed the crowd to Capitol hill.On their side of the bldg, fences were up and cops watched as they did protest activity.But then they tell me, people came from the other side to tell that protestors were being allowed in...they followed the queue, found open doors, held by Cops.and they followed everyone else through a semi-guided tour of the Capitol, then left.This couple never knew they were part of an invasion until about an hour after leaving.
so really: I still don't know what to think, other than 3/4 of the country has been conned to the point of disbelief.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: stephendutton on January 11, 2021, 05:34:51 am
One thing to note about this whole thing, and I'm not saying it's credible but it's been reported. Put on your tin foil hat a little here;)

What if the goal wasn't just to stir the pot and the goal was to get the tech from inside, hard drives etc. If that's the case then they succeeded, not that it changes the outcome at this point. But I've seen lots of reports that tech went missing particularly from Pelosi etc. What else we saw could very well be the diversion of sorts, and who knows what will come down the road as a result.

Now I'm not taking a position on the whole thing as a whole, I just found that fact rather interesting. And as a whole it's hard to make a lot of sense of the things that happened etc.

As far as a line etc, Well I've talked about that in the past and my opinion hasn't changed but I also have zero idea how to put this particular train back on the tracks. And I haven't seen any indication that the majority of the country is willing to either. So bit pessimistic but I don't see a way off the path we're currently on.

I've heard this sort of thing elsewhere with some people wondering whether Nancy Pelosi's laptop could have been accessed. Nothing concrete of course. All I will say is that if Twitter, Facebook and all the other social media platforms that I have banned for failing to meet my community guidelines are going to be kicking people off then private forums may become more popular again.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: lesptr on January 11, 2021, 01:18:31 pm
The guy in the fur hat, with the buffalo horns?  *nods* I've seen multiple photos of him at Trump rallies, with various QAnon posters.

I *told* you you needed to pay attention to that BS.
He’s also been seen with BLM and antifa shenanigans.

You should pay attention as well.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 11, 2021, 03:09:14 pm
He’s also been seen with BLM and antifa shenanigans.

You should pay attention as well.

He isn't Antifa; he's proudly QAnon affiliated.  There're shots of him mugging with Giuliani (in a suit and tie, so he does know how to clean up ::) ).

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/giuliani-jake-angeli-capitol-riot/ (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/giuliani-jake-angeli-capitol-riot/)
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: lesptr on January 11, 2021, 03:30:47 pm
He isn't Antifa; he's proudly QAnon affiliated.  There're shots of him mugging with Giuliani (in a suit and tie, so he does know how to clean up ::) ).

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/giuliani-jake-angeli-capitol-riot/ (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/giuliani-jake-angeli-capitol-riot/)
For someone who is really impressed with himself, I can’t believe you use snopes as a source to quote.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Plebian on January 11, 2021, 04:37:51 pm
Many times real whackadoos switch sides on issues a ton. They are just looking for a cause to be whackadoos most times and do not really care about the reasons.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 11, 2021, 05:49:40 pm
For someone who is really impressed with himself, I can’t believe you use snopes as a source to quote.

*Sigh*  Just 'cuz it's snopes doesn't mean it's wrong...

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-protester-capitol-antifa-qa/fact-check-man-with-painted-face-wearing-fur-and-horns-rallied-for-trump-and-qanon-not-antifa-or-blm-idUSKBN29C0BP (https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-protester-capitol-antifa-qa/fact-check-man-with-painted-face-wearing-fur-and-horns-rallied-for-trump-and-qanon-not-antifa-or-blm-idUSKBN29C0BP)

https://gvwire.com/2021/01/07/longtime-arizona-qanon-supporter-in-horned-helmet-joins-storming-of-u-s-capitol/ (https://gvwire.com/2021/01/07/longtime-arizona-qanon-supporter-in-horned-helmet-joins-storming-of-u-s-capitol/)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyiKpX1bYu4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyiKpX1bYu4)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/jake-angeli-qanon-shaman-stormed-capitol-b1784091.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/jake-angeli-qanon-shaman-stormed-capitol-b1784091.html)
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: coelacanth on January 12, 2021, 12:09:50 am
I suppose its to be expected that a guy who dresses like he's trying out for a "Village People" redux and never saw a camera he didn't try to get in front of is going to become the public face of the group of visitors to the capitol building.   Still, I wonder why none of the people who just calmly walked into the building while the capitol police held the doors open for them were talked to.  I guess those people aren't exciting enough visually and don't fit the narrative of " the crazed mob attacking the U.S. Capitol".    :coffee   

Juxtaposed against the rioting, looting, arson, and destruction of public and private property for most of the last year, the events in Washington, D.C. on January 6th seem relatively tame.   One might even venture to say the day was "mostly peaceful" to borrow a phrase from the news readers describing such events in Minneapolis or Portland or Chicago or Seattle.  If the rioting in Washington, D.C. earlier this year wasn't really that big a deal then why is this day so important to the talking heads?    :hmm   Consider it a rhetorical question.  I think I understand the situation but that's a whole 'nother thread. 

Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: ksuguy on January 12, 2021, 01:13:38 am
Buffalo guy just seems like an attention whore that likes to cosplay at protests.   It's his "thing".     
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 12, 2021, 09:47:51 am
I suppose its to be expected that a guy who dresses like he's trying out for a "Village People" redux and never saw a camera he didn't try to get in front of is going to become the public face of the group of visitors to the capitol building.   Still, I wonder why none of the people who just calmly walked into the building while the capitol police held the doors open for them were talked to.  I guess those people aren't exciting enough visually and don't fit the narrative of " the crazed mob attacking the U.S. Capitol".    :coffee   

Juxtaposed against the rioting, looting, arson, and destruction of public and private property for most of the last year, the events in Washington, D.C. on January 6th seem relatively tame.   One might even venture to say the day was "mostly peaceful" to borrow a phrase from the news readers describing such events in Minneapolis or Portland or Chicago or Seattle.  If the rioting in Washington, D.C. earlier this year wasn't really that big a deal then why is this day so important to the talking heads?    :hmm   Consider it a rhetorical question.  I think I understand the situation but that's a whole 'nother thread. 

They've got bigger fish to fry than people who just went sightseeing.  If the person came in, looked around, checked out some of the paintings, and walked out, they're not going to be nearly as interested in them as the people wandering around with zip ties, s___ting on the statues, and stealing stuff.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Chief45 on January 12, 2021, 09:54:10 am
From backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/please-read/

************************* 
Shutdown of conservative voices in the various media is, if anything, scarier than the way a pro-Trump protest went downhill in the Capitol the other day.

We learned yesterday that GoDaddy had shut down the popular gun forum AR15.com, citing advocacy for violence.

Regular visitors here know that in the many years this blog has existed, I have welcomed dissenting voices and very rarely deleted comments or banned commentators.  It is likewise extremely rare for me to close comments.

I have had to close comments, proactively, on the blog post immediately preceding this one.

Yes, the incoming administration has promised Draconian laws that will severely and outrageously impact the law-abiding gun owners w ho come here. I can say with some authority that gun owners’ civil rights forces with a long history of success in the legal arena will challenge such legislation in court.

The muffling of conservative voices will likewise be challenged in court.

I am going to ask our readers to avoid any commentary – here, or in any other form of media – advocating violence, shooting authorities or hanging elected officials, or anything else of the kind.  Having carried a badge for 43 years I can assure you that technology developed for catching white collar criminals, child pornographers, etc. will be applied to forum posts, Twitter tweets, and the like.  Your mom was right: anything you post on the Internet or in the Twitterverse – or here – may as well have been put on a billboard on the highway. It can and will be used against you to “make an example of you.”

All y’all are guests here, and all of us including me are guests of the Duffy family and the Backwoods Home group. As our history here shows, they and I support free speech. That said, I am not going to see them shut down because some drooling, bloodthirsty troglodyte posted advocacy of murder or any other form of non-self-defense violence here.

So, please, think before you post here, or anywhere else.  The Capitol incident did no good whatsoever in my opinion for the credibility of the gun owners’ civil rights movement.  The FBI is now warning us of violent, armed demonstrations scheduled at the Capitol again, and at State Houses around the nation. I don’t give legal advice, just practical advice, but I’ll tell you this.

Violence is almost certain to erupt at such gatherings, and whichever side starts it someone will blame the law-abiding gun owners. There are prosecutors elected with money from the left who will seek to make examples of law abiding people with guns who get caught up in such.

Going to such an event voluntarily, knowing it could erupt in lethal violence, could shred the “mantle of innocence” that is essential to a successful self-defense plea.  Going to such a demonstration at all strikes me as being stupid. Going armed seems even more stupid, and going visibly armed would be more stupid yet.
***************************
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 12, 2021, 10:07:58 am
Buffalo guy just seems like an attention whore that likes to cosplay at protests.   It's his "thing".     

The fact that y'all keep trying to pawn your weirdos off on another group amuses me to no end. "He's not one of ours!" Yeah, yeah, he is.

I at least try to explain ours.  I may not understand them, or agree with them, but I try to explain 'em.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 12, 2021, 03:38:04 pm
Complaining about the Free Market closing out Parler and shutting down people's speech, but y'all really glad to help bakeries NOT make cakes for gay weddings.

Which is a more constitutional crisis, boys getting married or a President distributing lies and misinformation and endorsing deadly QAnon bull  carp?
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 12, 2021, 03:48:54 pm
I made that point to my Mom last night.

To be intellectually consistent, a liberal would believe that you can force a baker to make a cake for a gay couple, and for Facebook to allow conservative views.  But a conservative would allow neither.

In case you're wondering, I believe Facebook should be carrying Conservative views, but I draw the line at calls for violence (from either party).

BTW, welcome back, Doug.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 12, 2021, 04:03:42 pm
Juxtaposed against the rioting, looting, arson, and destruction of public and private property for most of the last year, the events in Washington, D.C. on January 6th seem relatively tame.

As far as I know, Antifa/BLM never caused a fatality among the police, as what happened with Officer Brian Sicknick.

https://www.fox5dc.com/video/889048

And of course, the FBI has most assuredly traced much of the arson back to the Proud Boys.

https://www.wbaltv.com/article/there-is-no-evidence-that-suggests-antifa-was-a-part-of-the-storming-of-the-capitol/35145385

Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 12, 2021, 04:04:48 pm
I came to see just how things were here. At least a couple people might call me a Communist, even if I did present evidence from a Fox news affiliate.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Grognard on January 13, 2021, 11:35:58 am
I welcome differing perspective and opinion; even from those espousing a failed political ideology and ruinous economic system.

Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 13, 2021, 12:21:46 pm
I welcome differing perspective and opinion; even from those espousing a failed political ideology and ruinous economic system.



When I say some folks here consider me a Communist, they might feel that they're right, but employee pay should rise at the same rate as CEO/Corporate officer pay.  Y'all got money to get a yacht, y'all can pay the people that bust their asses enough to make payments on a new car or buy a nice AR.

This is the kind of thing that gets me labelled Communist. People being paid for their labor.  ::)
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Plebian on January 13, 2021, 04:02:43 pm
When I say some folks here consider me a Communist, they might feel that they're right, but employee pay should rise at the same rate as CEO/Corporate officer pay.  Y'all got money to get a yacht, y'all can pay the people that bust their asses enough to make payments on a new car or buy a nice AR.

This is the kind of thing that gets me labelled Communist. People being paid for their labor.  ::)

This is not meant to be rhetorical or judging this comment without merit, but I have asked this to a number of individuals expressing these type of views(all the way up to economics professors).

How do we determine what is 'fair' pay for an individuals labor?

I know the free market way of determining value by supply and demand, but how else would we determine this value? Is there anyway to set a 'fair' pay without someone making an arbitrary decision?
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: RetroGrouch on January 13, 2021, 04:40:33 pm
So a suicide 3 days after the fact is a direct result?  It was also three days after Biden was confirmed as President Elect. 


How many cops committed suicide this past summer in cities that had riots and burned?  Can they all be laid at the feet of BLM/Antifa/Democrats?
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: coelacanth on January 13, 2021, 10:51:40 pm
This is not meant to be rhetorical or judging this comment without merit, but I have asked this to a number of individuals expressing these type of views(all the way up to economics professors).

How do we determine what is 'fair' pay for an individuals labor?

I know the free market way of determining value by supply and demand, but how else would we determine this value? Is there anyway to set a 'fair' pay without someone making an arbitrary decision?

That does seem to be the crux of the matter.   :coffee
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Plebian on January 14, 2021, 03:05:44 am
That does seem to be the crux of the matter.   :coffee

It seems to be a non-trivial thing to answer. I am very honestly asking here, and I have yet to have someone actually answer it without using market forces or an arbitrary assignment of value.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Maestro on January 14, 2021, 05:32:31 am
I'm so glad I logged into WTH today. Reading these posts since the 6th is like a microcosm of the state of the US, with all the back and forth of ideas and things. That said.

In response to some of the other comments,
As far as I know, Antifa/BLM never caused a fatality among the police, as what happened with Officer Brian Sicknick.
a member of BLM killed 5 cops in Dallas in 2016, ANTIFA member Michael Reinoehl killed a Pro-Trump activist during the Portland protests, and then there is this...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/americans-killed-protests-political-unrest-acled

which states that at least 25 more people were killed during the protests and riots. (I didn't fact check that by the way)

In regards to "Where is the point of no return?" There isn't one. Not anymore. And it's mostly because the folks in the gun community all think that in the event of revolution they are all John Connor, nobody is the private killed in the opening scene.

Personally, even if I was so inclined, I'm too old, too married, and too damn fat to join in on shenanigans!  :D :D
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 14, 2021, 11:10:28 am
That does seem to be the crux of the matter.   :coffee

I think we can safely say that this ain't working to everyone's benefit:

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/v7LukTOVt4q3uUxH_keDPgPrYiA=/1400x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/16677162/epi_ceo_pay.png)
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: cpaspr on January 14, 2021, 06:05:06 pm
"at the top 350 U.S. firms ranked by sales"

And there's the problem with the chart.  The very top 350 firms out of how many millions of companies?

Now, don't get me wrong.  I think SOME CEOs are way overpaid.  Probably nearly all, if not actually all, of them in that top 350 firms.  And even the top 1000.

But with small companies, with 1 to very few "owners", it is often the CEO who mortgaged his or her home to start the business, put in 15+ hour days for many years to build the business, and neglected everything (including family time) to build the business.  He or she will never get back the opportunity to watch their kid's first step, etc.  Oftentimes barely taking enough out of the company to pay his/her personal bills.  So, assuming everything aligned correctly, 20 years down the road I don't have a problem with these kinds of CEOs making whatever they chooses to pay themselves.  Because it's their company, and a lot of it is recompense for lost years and high risks taken.

Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 14, 2021, 06:49:18 pm
But with small companies, with 1 to very few "owners", it is often the CEO who mortgaged his or her home to start the business, put in 15+ hour days for many years to build the business, and neglected everything (including family time) to build the business.  He or she will never get back the opportunity to watch their kid's first step, etc.  Oftentimes barely taking enough out of the company to pay his/her personal bills.  So, assuming everything aligned correctly, 20 years down the road I don't have a problem with these kinds of CEOs making whatever they chooses to pay themselves.  Because it's their company, and a lot of it is recompense for lost years and high risks taken.

Certainly.  I wouldn't be interested in this tripping up small businesses. They drive the economy more than they're given credit for.  *IF* I were to support a law that limited CEO:worker pay ratio, I would still want to set that ratio fairly high (40:1?), and I would set the bar for the number of employees above, say... 8k-10k?

I don't know, there would need to be research into how the law would be structured.  My point is, it would be designed to *not* hit the guy that mortgaged his house to start a business. It *would* be structured to hit the guy who's buying his third yacht when he doesn't use the first two, and has more money than they'll ever spend in 5 lifetimes.

As I pointed out in a Facebook thread, I don't have any problem with people who aren't rich *getting* rich, I have a problem with people hoarding more money than God while not paying their workers (*looking askance at Bezos and Zuckerberg*).

But this isn't the point of the thread, back to DC.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: coelacanth on January 14, 2021, 08:50:18 pm
That does seem to be the crux of the matter.   :coffee
It seems to be a non-trivial thing to answer. I am very honestly asking here, and I have yet to have someone actually answer it without using market forces or an arbitrary assignment of value.
And nothing posted since has attempted to answer Plebian's question - which I also consider valid and "non-trivial".   Pointing to the current system and saying "It broke." is only marginally helpful.  I understand its a difficult question to answer which is why any discussion about it tends to get off in the weeds pretty quickly.  Still, the ability to answer that question is the equivalent of having a compass if you find yourself lost in the woods, no?   :hmm   "How then shall we live?" has always been the question at the the heart of a society's existence and it still is. 
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: NukMed on January 15, 2021, 09:43:36 am
So it seems to me that this thread has been a bit derailed from the original question.  Forgive me if I push it just a little farther.

My question for those concerned about wage disparity is:  Whose business is it?  Compensation should be between the employer and the employed, not the general electorate.  I submit that the issue isn’t any of your business if you are not the CEO in question, the employer, or the shareholders.

If you are unconvinced by the above, are you suggesting that Congress should “rectify” the situation somehow?  Should CEO salary be limited by law?  If so, please tell me where the Constitution authorizes Congress to interference with contracts.

If you are smart enough to see that such a federal law would be unconstitutional, and still think your state should step in, please tell me how you keep large businesses from fleeing your state and taking their jobs with them.  Please tell me why the talent that can command the higher salary would even bother to come to your state?

The attitude that “There ought to be a law!” is in itself dangerous to liberty.  It is a symptom of a desire to rule over others.  It pushes us closer and closer to that metaphorical line asked about in the original post.

In a free society you are not obligated to like anything anyone does or says.  You don’t have to agree with how anyone lives or works.  No one has to like you, what you do, or what you say, either.  Unless someone is violating another’s rights of life, liberty, or property, I am leery of suggesting any law that might affect them.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Woofr on January 15, 2021, 10:17:34 am
So it seems to me that this thread has been a bit derailed from the original question.  Forgive me if I push it just a little farther.

My question for those concerned about wage disparity is:  Whose business is it?  Compensation should be between the employer and the employed, not the general electorate.  I submit that the issue isn’t any of your business if you are not the CEO in question, the employer, or the shareholders.

If you are unconvinced by the above, are you suggesting that Congress should “rectify” the situation somehow?  Should CEO salary be limited by law?  If so, please tell me where the Constitution authorizes Congress to interference with contracts.

If you are smart enough to see that such a federal law would be unconstitutional, and still think your state should step in, please tell me how you keep large businesses from fleeing your state and taking their jobs with them.  Please tell me why the talent that can command the higher salary would even bother to come to your state?

The attitude that “There ought to be a law!” is in itself dangerous to liberty.  It is a symptom of a desire to rule over others.  It pushes us closer and closer to that metaphorical line asked about in the original post.

In a free society you are not obligated to like anything anyone does or says.  You don’t have to agree with how anyone lives or works.  No one has to like you, what you do, or what you say, either.  Unless someone is violating another’s rights of life, liberty, or property, I am leery of suggesting any law that might affect them.


This right here. You hit the nail on the head.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 15, 2021, 11:04:10 am
We have federal laws governing minimum wage, overtime pay, etc.  It isn't that much of a stretch to include maximum CEO compensation.

You're worried about keeping talent? I'm sick of hearing about CEO's running a company into the ground and walking away with million$$ in golden parachutes.

Anyway, as I said. BACK TO DC.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: NukMed on January 15, 2021, 11:21:38 am
We have federal laws governing minimum wage, overtime pay, etc.  It isn't that much of a stretch to include maximum CEO compensation.


This would be your opportunity to explain how those laws regarding min. wage, and overtime pay are constitutional.  Please site the clause in the Constitution granting Congress that power.


You're worried about keeping talent? I'm sick of hearing about CEO's running a company into the ground and walking away with million$$ in golden parachutes.


This would be where you explain how it's any of your business telling the owner of a company what is a wise/foolish business decision.  Why do you get to tell the owner/shareholders what management to hire or what practices, procedures, and strategies to implement?
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 15, 2021, 11:38:11 am
The federal minimum wage provisions are contained in the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA)

It's not the business decision, it's the golden parachute. You just fluffed up a multinational company and walked away with $42million, while 40,000 people got laid off.

Can a mod move this part of the thread to a new one?
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: NukMed on January 15, 2021, 11:56:19 am
The federal minimum wage provisions are contained in the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA)

It's not the business decision, it's the golden parachute. You just fluffed up a multinational company and walked away with $42million, while 40,000 people got laid off.

Can a mod move this part of the thread to a new one?

Once again you fail to answer the questions.  I am detecting a trend here and am suspicious that you know that answering them shoots holes in your argument.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Grognard on January 15, 2021, 03:33:23 pm
well, to get back to my original thoughts...

I've heard word that legitimate 2A activists/supporters and Constitutional Conservatives are asking that folks refrain from playing to the Progressive Left's tune. 
Don't go to DC for Inauguration.  Don't go there to protest.
And now the standard Conservative Republican line is in tune with the above.

What I think is good, is where we have people haranguing Politicians at home and when they're traveling in public.
It's good to let the Critters know they've been bad people and lousy representatives.

*I do not condone assaulting them, nor attacking their homes or families*

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/01/06/mitt-romney-plane-video-trump-supports-yell-traitor-flight-dc/6560941002/

https://www.npr.org/2020/12/16/946818045/from-congress-to-local-health-boards-public-officials-suffer-threats-and-harassm

My thought is this: if it's perfectly okay to scream at cops (whom are doing as they're paid to do)  then it ought to be more popular and much more effective to directly Protest & Berate the "elected" representatives who give the cops their orders.

Protests & marching around in front of a concrete/granite bunker seems rather pointless in comparison.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 15, 2021, 04:36:34 pm
Once again you fail to answer the questions.  I am detecting a trend here and am suspicious that you know that answering them shoots holes in your argument.

Article 1, Section 8, describing the powers of Congress to provide for the general welfare, and to regulate commerce, both international, and between the states.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: NukMed on January 15, 2021, 06:32:39 pm
Article 1, Section 8, describing the powers of Congress to provide for the general welfare, and to regulate commerce, both international, and between the states.

Is it your assertion that the general welfare clause is a grant of power instead of a limit?

Are you saying that the relationship between employer and employee constitutes "commerce?"

If you are saying that labor is commerce, then how may Congress regulate it if it does not happen overseas, across state borders, or amongst the Indian tribes?
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: kunkmiester on January 15, 2021, 09:19:59 pm
This is good:
https://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2021/01/13/pelosi-tweet-2017-n2583057?amp=true&__twitter_impression=true
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: coelacanth on January 15, 2021, 09:34:00 pm
well, to get back to my original thoughts...

I've heard word that legitimate 2A activists/supporters and Constitutional Conservatives are asking that folks refrain from playing to the Progressive Left's tune. 
Don't go to DC for Inauguration.  Don't go there to protest.
And now the standard Conservative Republican line is in tune with the above.

What I think is good, is where we have people haranguing Politicians at home and when they're traveling in public.
It's good to let the Critters know they've been bad people and lousy representatives.

*I do not condone assaulting them, nor attacking their homes or families*

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/01/06/mitt-romney-plane-video-trump-supports-yell-traitor-flight-dc/6560941002/

https://www.npr.org/2020/12/16/946818045/from-congress-to-local-health-boards-public-officials-suffer-threats-and-harassm

My thought is this: if it's perfectly okay to scream at cops (whom are doing as they're paid to do)  then it ought to be more popular and much more effective to directly Protest & Berate the "elected" representatives who give the cops their orders.

Protests & marching around in front of a concrete/granite bunker seems rather pointless in comparison.
Most street theater is a pointless exercise.  All the various "marches" on Washington, D.C. organized by one group or another amount to a fart in a tornado.  Prior to mass communication media a march like that might have been significant but not today.  The people in charge either failed to notice, failed to care or both.

Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: coelacanth on January 15, 2021, 10:05:43 pm
Is it your assertion that the general welfare clause is a grant of power instead of a limit?

Are you saying that the relationship between employer and employee constitutes "commerce?"

If you are saying that labor is commerce, then how may Congress regulate it if it does not happen overseas, across state borders, or amongst the Indian tribes?
Once again you fail to answer the questions.  I am detecting a trend here and am suspicious that you know that answering them shoots holes in your argument.
Is it your assertion that the general welfare clause is a grant of power instead of a limit?

Are you saying that the relationship between employer and employee constitutes "commerce?"

If you are saying that labor is commerce, then how may Congress regulate it if it does not happen overseas, across state borders, or amongst the Indian tribes?
The federal minimum wage provisions are contained in the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA)

It's not the business decision, it's the golden parachute. You just fluffed up a multinational company and walked away with $42million, while 40,000 people got laid off.

Can a mod move this part of the thread to a new one?
Tying this back to the question in the OP, the point of no return was passed before any of us were born.   That is the reason that no minimum wage law - federal, state or any combination of them will ever have the advertised effect.   Wage controls don't work without price controls and vice versa.  Once you establish a system of fiat currency inflation is baked into the cake - which invariably ( and usually in short order ) results in wrecking the wage/price control model.  The only system that has the inherent flexibility to adapt to all the variables is free market capitalism.  Unfortunately it comes well equipped with its own disadvantages - some of which have been mentioned already. 

I find it ironic that the only objection to "golden parachutes" is directed toward the private sector.  If you seek to find outrageous examples of overcompensated under achievers with unbelievably lucrative retirement/pension plans the largest group of them is found in the federal government and particularly around Washington, D.C..   :coffee

Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Grognard on January 15, 2021, 11:36:03 pm
I find it ironic that the only objection to "golden parachutes" is directed toward the private sector.  If you seek to find outrageous examples of overcompensated under achievers with unbelievably lucrative retirement/pension plans the largest group of them is found in the federal government and particularly around Washington, D.C..   :coffee 

I do alot of subcontract work. My personal experience when working with those leeches...
Their work day. 
Show up at 0800-ish (I get in at 0630-0700) spend first hour doing coffee and gossiping.
0900 - check emails for more gossip, and 2nd cup of coffee.
1000 - useless, directionless Meetings (gossip & b____ about "overpaid" contractors) until 1130
1130 - planning for lunch hour
1200-1300(ish)  lunch hour(s)
1300- 1400 (exercise time aka walking the perimeter & gossiping)
1400 - 1430 check emails for actual work related things, so they can send hate mail & nastygrams to each other and contractors, to b____ about perceived contractor failures.
1430-1500  more meetings during the specific time that they're needed to make binding decisions for contractors to implement.
1500-1530(ish) Mill about uselessly, screeching about Work Stoppage because they don't have a specific email or product that the contractors were waiting on their decisions to implement.
1530-ish: leave for day.

Oh: and they get paid 6 figures + full benefits + unionized, so they can rake in the white collar welfare.
If someone wanted to "Drain the Swamp", they'd gut the Bureaucracy.  eliminate 200k jobs from the DC area.

but I'm just Joe Citizen who can only sit back and watch.
Maybe the line was crossed in the 50s or even before.
I don't know.  I just know I love my Country and am disappointed in my government.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 16, 2021, 07:01:58 pm
I know the free market way of determining value by supply and demand, but how else would we determine this value? Is there anyway to set a 'fair' pay without someone making an arbitrary decision?

When payment is kept commensurate with cost of living increases. If Minimum Wage were kept apace of Cost of Living, then it would be around $24 an hour.

When $7.25 is minimum wage, and a single gallon of milk is around $3.50, a half an hour of heavy lifting, exposure to heat and sparking grease, or utilization of the overly inflated college tuitions and unfairly financed college loans technical knowledge is being paid entirely too much.

But hey, rather than fix artificial price increases for basic necessities, let's just complain that "a burger flipper" shouldn't make as much money as an EMT.

Because as Mike Pence said "they want to make the poor comfortable."

As if it were a BAD thing.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: wyatt on January 16, 2021, 07:15:25 pm
When payment is kept commensurate with cost of living increases. If Minimum Wage were kept apace of Cost of Living, then it would be around $24 an hour.

When $7.25 is minimum wage, and a single gallon of milk is around $3.50, a half an hour of heavy lifting, exposure to heat and sparking grease, or utilization of the overly inflated college tuitions and unfairly financed college loans technical knowledge is being paid entirely too much.

But hey, rather than fix artificial price increases for basic necessities, let's just complain that "a burger flipper" shouldn't make as much money as an EMT.

Because as Mike Pence said "they want to make the poor comfortable."

As if it were a BAD thing.
"The best way to help the poor is to make them uncomfortable in their poverty" - Benjamin Franklin
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Plebian on January 16, 2021, 09:20:10 pm
When payment is kept commensurate with cost of living increases. If Minimum Wage were kept apace of Cost of Living, then it would be around $24 an hour.

When $7.25 is minimum wage, and a single gallon of milk is around $3.50, a half an hour of heavy lifting, exposure to heat and sparking grease, or utilization of the overly inflated college tuitions and unfairly financed college loans technical knowledge is being paid entirely too much.

But hey, rather than fix artificial price increases for basic necessities, let's just complain that "a burger flipper" shouldn't make as much money as an EMT.

Because as Mike Pence said "they want to make the poor comfortable."

As if it were a BAD thing.

Okay, so we keep pay at a set level to cost of living increase. How do we determine the ratio of pay to cost of living? We simply use historical example? Is this pay going to be different in different areas because of differences in cost of living in the location?
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Grognard on January 16, 2021, 09:30:12 pm
"The best way to help the poor is to make them uncomfortable in their poverty" - Benjamin Franklin

A poor man who is comfortable in his poverty is a hermit: I've met people who are absolutely fine, living well under the poverty line.
A comfortable poor man who keeps a family poor is lazy.
And no, I don't buy into the systemic barriers bulls___. 
This is America. 
The non-government agencies/charities that exist to help people with their bootstraps is amazing. 
The people simply have to be willing to put in the work.
But the government is too busy trying to make them comfortable in their welfare prisons.
Why? Because people in welfare prisons are just Vote Cattle: raised to ensure the DemSocialist Communist agenda.
The number one health problem of American Poor: OBESITY.


My first job was at age 12: farm work for $3/hour.
When I married, 25 years ago, I made $6.25/hour to raise a family.
Since then, I have paid for 4 people in my family to attain 7 college degrees.
I work a job and I have a personal part-time business.
And yes, I do now make more than minimum wage.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: wyatt on January 17, 2021, 01:10:00 am
A poor man who is comfortable in his poverty is a hermit: I've met people who are absolutely fine, living well under the poverty line.
A comfortable poor man who keeps a family poor is lazy.
And no, I don't buy into the systemic barriers bulls___. 
This is America. 
The non-government agencies/charities that exist to help people with their bootstraps is amazing. 
The people simply have to be willing to put in the work.
But the government is too busy trying to make them comfortable in their welfare prisons.
Why? Because people in welfare prisons are just Vote Cattle: raised to ensure the DemSocialist Communist agenda.
The number one health problem of American Poor: OBESITY.


My first job was at age 12: farm work for $3/hour.
When I married, 25 years ago, I made $6.25/hour to raise a family.
Since then, I have paid for 4 people in my family to attain 7 college degrees.
I work a job and I have a personal part-time business.
And yes, I do now make more than minimum wage.
:thumbup1
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 17, 2021, 10:45:39 am
The number one health problem of American Poor: OBESITY.

Food that is healthy to eat costs more.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/12/pinpointing-the-higher-cost-of-a-healthy-diet/#:~:text=The%20healthiest%20diets%20cost%20about,patterns%20to%20less%20healthy%20ones. (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/12/pinpointing-the-higher-cost-of-a-healthy-diet/#:~:text=The%20healthiest%20diets%20cost%20about,patterns%20to%20less%20healthy%20ones.)

The article is 7 years old, so tack a fair amount of inflation onto that.  $1.50 more a day, per person, to eat healthy.  And that's assuming you have the time to cook it. The working poor are often working more than one job.

And then there's the clothes and other stuff you can afford to buy.  You can't afford quality, so you end up spending more, over the long run, on cheaper goods.

It's from a  fiction series, but the point is sound:

Quote
The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: coelacanth on January 17, 2021, 01:19:25 pm
Everyone establishes priorities for their resources.    :coffee

Frankly, its hard to find "the poor" in this country.  Unless, of course, you are referring to those who can't "afford" to find a job commensurate with their skills because it would mean taking a pay cut.   Better to stay home and just relax in front of the big screen TV, binge watch a few shows on cable and then maybe play some games or catch up with the latest news on your smart phone.  Or maybe order more stuff off Amazon because you get free shipping with Prime.  Maybe wander down to Walmart and pick up some chips and stuff for catching the game later. 

Before the advent of socialism here "the poor" would have looked at today's version and thought them wealthy.   They might also have considered them stupid and short-sighted for not taking what's given to them and making the most out of it.  Perhaps that point of view is peculiar to those who have experienced actual poverty and actual hardship.   

Its difficult to look at our society today and not arrive at the conclusion we have allowed our success to blind us to our potential and blunt our drive to achieve it.  Much like the those folks mentioned in the second paragraph who see nothing wrong with letting the government take care of them since they are maintained in relative comfort and safety.   

Terry Pratchett is a gifted author and his "Discworld" series is justly famous but there is another I would point you to for a more relevant take on things.  Arthur C. Clark wrote a novel many years ago called "Against the Fall of Night" which was based on an earlier story he wrote called, "The City and the Stars".   Thought provoking material from one of the grand masters of the genre.   

John Adams also had a lot to say that applies particularly to us as a nation.  The following quote seems to encapsulate the idea I've tried to express here; 

"  . . .  I must study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.  Our sons ought to study mathematics, philosophy, geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain."   John Adams

Indeed.  The logical progression of that idea has brought us to the current situation where children and adults can receive "diplomas" for graduating from the public education system as functional illiterates unable to speak, read and write their native language and unable to perform basic arithmetic operations and possessed of an appalling ignorance about the world they inhabit.  Yet, somehow, these people are able to live in the relative comfort and safety provided for them all by .  .  .  whom?    :hmm
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: ksuguy on January 17, 2021, 02:14:10 pm
One of the biggest problems with out of control executive pay is that there is not enough oversight.   Executive pay is set by corporate boards.  Corporate boards are often made up of executives from other companies.    So basically you've got a big group of the same people all deciding what to pay each other.   
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: cpaspr on January 17, 2021, 03:55:42 pm
One of the biggest problems with out of control executive pay is that there is not enough oversight.   Executive pay is set by corporate boards.  Corporate boards are often made up of executives from other companies.    So basically you've got a big group of the same people all deciding what to pay each other.   

BINGO!   :clap

And none of them truly looking out for the shareholders' best interests.

And the John Adams quote reminds me of this, whose author I am unsure of:

Hard time create hard men.  Hard men create good times.  Good times create soft men.  Soft men create hard times.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 17, 2021, 07:54:46 pm
"The best way to help the poor is to make them uncomfortable in their poverty" - Benjamin Franklin

When the working poor are working two-three jobs, wrecking their health and fed through the food deserts' junk drawers, and barely have time to look in on their children - they're still in poverty, and yet not making enough to make ends meet.

So, Ben can go...
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: coelacanth on January 17, 2021, 09:37:48 pm
Umm .  .  .  "Ben" already went.    :coffee
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: ksuguy on January 17, 2021, 11:59:59 pm
BINGO!   :clap

And none of them truly looking out for the shareholders' best interests.

Yeah, and even if they are helping the share price, which they sometimes do in the short term (gotta pump up the value of those stock options!),  they are often hurting the company in the long term.   There are lots of ways to temporarily ramp up a share price,  but that will destroy the company over the long term.   Of course that won't matter to the guy that did it since he'll already be gone, or get a nice golden parachute.   

Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: LowKey on January 18, 2021, 12:05:39 am
We don't have actually poor people in any numbers in the US. 
When my wife first immigrated here from Thailand and after many years living with me in the middle east she asked me where our poor people were.   I pointed to a less affluent neighborhood we were driving past there in Florida.   She asked, "But they're fat and have cars? Why do you call them poor? "   

Healthy food may cost more, but actual poor people can't afford the cheap less-healthy food either.  Poor people certainly can't afford color tv's and cars.   That matches up with what I've seen living in Thailand, living in the middle east, and living in Ukraine.       Those who you want to lable as "poor" are anything but that. They're simply less rich than many of the other people in this country.



 
Food that is healthy to eat costs more.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/12/pinpointing-the-higher-cost-of-a-healthy-diet/#:~:text=The%20healthiest%20diets%20cost%20about,patterns%20to%20less%20healthy%20ones. (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2013/12/pinpointing-the-higher-cost-of-a-healthy-diet/#:~:text=The%20healthiest%20diets%20cost%20about,patterns%20to%20less%20healthy%20ones.)

The article is 7 years old, so tack a fair amount of inflation onto that.  $1.50 more a day, per person, to eat healthy.  And that's assuming you have the time to cook it. The working poor are often working more than one job.

And then there's the clothes and other stuff you can afford to buy.  You can't afford quality, so you end up spending more, over the long run, on cheaper goods.

It's from a  fiction series, but the point is sound:
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: LowKey on January 18, 2021, 12:09:06 am
The "Pump and Dump" philosophy of corporate management.  Cut expenditures and investments in the companies long term interest in exchange for a short term boost in the quarterly profits, get your bonus, and rinse wash and repeat until you see indications that the house of cards you've built will crash in the next fiscal year then quit to pursue "other opportunities" before your chickens come home to roost and leave the shareholders holding the bag.


Yeah, and even if they are helping the share price, which they sometimes do in the short term (gotta pump up the value of those stock options!),  they are often hurting the company in the long term.   There are lots of ways to temporarily ramp up a share price,  but that will destroy the company over the long term.   Of course that won't matter to the guy that did it since he'll already be gone, or get a nice golden parachute.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: wyatt on January 18, 2021, 03:22:24 am
When the working poor are working two-three jobs, wrecking their health and fed through the food deserts' junk drawers, and barely have time to look in on their children - they're still in poverty, and yet not making enough to make ends meet.

So, Ben can go...
Yet they always seem to have money for alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, smart phones, cable, internet, video games, ect, ect.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: ksuguy on January 18, 2021, 11:50:15 am
Popular culture and entertainment is also a problem.  It constantly bombards people with images that are completely unrealistic. Every sitcom character lives in a nice 3000+ sq ft house with multiple levels.  Except for the ones that live in New York,  they all have huge apartments that would costs thousands of dollars every month to rent even though they don't work or have a low skill job that would never pay for that.   Then there are the various reality shows where everyone is living in a mansion despite being a completely worthless piece of s___ that contributes nothing of value.

So when people don't have all that stuff,  they get resentful and jealous.    Or they do something stupid and spend more than they have and go into debt to live a lifestyle that they can't really afford.     
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Grognard on January 18, 2021, 08:09:25 pm
^^^ All true.  ^^^

One key piece of advice I give my family: never, ever judge someone based on their FB, IG, or any other social network.
Human nature will always be to publish the top 1% of your life.  And it is not fair nor viable to judge my entire life/worthiness by comparing it to someone else's top 1%.

I can show you pictures of "my trip to Europe" and "my wads of cash" and "check out my new car"...
but you'd be missing all the pictures of me saving every dime for 5 years to afford that trip.
or my grandmother dying young and leaving me a little nugget of inheritance,
or the fact that my car is now 8 years old & 200k miles on it.

You want to see POOR?  Take a trip to Haiti or Africa or Columbia or any other 3rd world hellhole to get real perspective. 
America's "poor" are wealthy in comparison.

THIS is absolutely true: "Those who you want to label as "poor" are anything but that. They're simply less rich than many of the other people in this country."
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 19, 2021, 12:55:57 pm

Terry Pratchett is a gifted author and his "Discworld" series is justly famous but there is another I would point you to for a more relevant take on things.  Arthur C. Clark wrote a novel many years ago called "Against the Fall of Night" which was based on an earlier story he wrote called, "The City and the Stars".   Thought provoking material from one of the grand masters of the genre.   


I've actually read more Clark (and Heinlein, and Asimov) than I have Pratchett, but I haven't read that particular piece. I shall endeavor to rectify both, sir.

But here's the problem with reading any kind of fiction, and applying it's lessons to real life: Of course it worked out that way, it's how the author wanted it to end.  That doesn't mean that any observations about humanity that you learn about during the reading aren't valid (a lot of Heinlein comes to mind, for that), but past that, all bets are off.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: coelacanth on January 19, 2021, 10:45:38 pm
Agreed.  Still, the author attempts to tell a story by relating it to what the reader knows, understands and has experienced. The whole point of the SF genre is to expand the frontiers of imagination but its validity still lies in its relevance to the audience.  As you say, both RAH and Isaac Asimov had a particular talent for that sort of thing. 
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 20, 2021, 11:38:37 am
Yet they always seem to have money for alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, smart phones, cable, internet, video games, ect, ect.

And who are THEY?  Certainly not the working poor.

But please, give me pictures of the dirty they "thriving in poverty."
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 20, 2021, 11:42:52 am
In regards to people comparing the 7% of Black Lives Matter protests (where Boogaloo Boys engaged in arson and threw bricks at cops, inciting tear gas attacks upon the non-violent members of the crowd turning peaceful assembly into a riot) to the coordinated and determined breech of the Capitol building (where cops were killed and injured), I present this article.

It's not from NewsMax nor OANN, so I don't know if a couple people here will consider it valid, but it's worth a try in regards to the point of no return.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/15/false-comparison-between-last-summers-protests-what-happened-capitol/
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Grognard on January 20, 2021, 02:48:18 pm
lessee here: quoting the article itself, where it CONTRADICTS itself within the same sentence.
"Rioters in Minneapolis burned down a police precinct; others in other cities looted and burned buildings. All of those acts were criminal and damaging. None of them broadly threatened the existence of law enforcement or commerce." :facepalm Burning down police precincts in multiple cities, murdering 12+ officers nationwide, and injuring hundreds of officers is NOT a threat to law enforcement? :facepalm Burning down whole business districts, assaulting/injuring employees, murdering shop owners to the point it caused wholesale commercial evacuation of those cities, is NOT a threat to commerce? :facepalm

And then there is this: "There's no credible evidence of even moderate fraud"  :eh
Covering your eyes and ears to HUNDREDS of witness affidavits and videos is an infantile attempt to deny the truth. :doh
Please don't insult me or the members here or this thread with your puerile, fetid, obnoxious lies and self-deception.

Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: luke213(adamsholsters) on January 20, 2021, 02:48:46 pm
In regards to people comparing the 7% of Black Lives Matter protests (where Boogaloo Boys engaged in arson and threw bricks at cops, inciting tear gas attacks upon the non-violent members of the crowd turning peaceful assembly into a riot) to the coordinated and determined breech of the Capitol building (where cops were killed and injured), I present this article.

It's not from NewsMax nor OANN, so I don't know if a couple people here will consider it valid, but it's worth a try in regards to the point of no return.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/01/15/false-comparison-between-last-summers-protests-what-happened-capitol/

I didn't read the whole thing I scanned it and didn't see anything I haven't seen before so if there are important parts I missed feel free to mention it and I'll go back. But my thoughts are I don't think this was any better organized than anything that happened over the summer maybe less so. There is a thought that these are all super organized, in this case I think you had a large group of people pissed about what could be true or not that's not for me to decide. I've long said "be afraid of idiots in large groups" the reason is purely it doesn't matter their ideology it's purely that human wave effect. It's damn hard to stop a thousand people running at you armed or unarmed.

Now I'd like to say this:
https://youtu.be/vUJr5inU-3Y

Does that look super organized or aggressive? Doesn't to me either, I'm not saying there weren't parts that may have been but the vast majority of what I've seen is deer in the headlights with zero plan of action.

How about this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGv2vnEarFk

Even the cop "Any chance I could get you guys to leave the Senate wing?" that doesn't sound like he feels they are in a life and death coop. Just my opinion, but it seems like a goof to a large degree. And I'm not discounting or defending their actions, I think what they did overall was stupid, probably criminal but not approaching treason or anything beyond IMHO. But my opinion is worth what you paid for it.

If they had lined up as an entry team, been stacking bodies and blowing doors... Yeah I'd say that's a coop. Walking in and dicking around on social media then leaving, I just don't agree and yeah they walked out with stuff and I'll admit my dark sense of humor I laughed my ass off about some of that. But they didn't burn the place down and in general even the folks inside seemed to be fairly respectful. Again there are certainly exceptions and even those who were respectful I'm not defending since I don't think they should have been there.

But I think this whole thing has been blown way out of proportion IMHO.

Luke

Also you wouldn't catch me there, nor at any political rally so I may be a poor case to examine this stuff. I'll continue to hang out in the woods and watch the world pick sides and tear themselves up.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: coelacanth on January 20, 2021, 03:39:26 pm
^ Nailed it ^   :coffee
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 20, 2021, 03:40:09 pm
Doing my diligence researching Grognard's claim of 12 police officers murdered during the BLM riots, because unlike him, I won't unfairly dismiss a claim without seeking out the receipts.

1 - Lee Keltner, a navy veteran who made custom western hats, was shot after a “patriot rally” in Denver on 10 October. Video and photographs of the incident appear to show Keltner slapping a security guard for a local news crew, who responds by pulling out a gun and shooting him.

2 - Aaron “Jay” Danielson, a far-right Trump supporter, was shot after a rally in Portland in August. Danielson’s suspected killer, Michael Reinoehl, was a leftwing protester who called himself an “anti-fascist”, and who was later shot to death by law enforcement officials, an outcome Donald Trump referred to as “retribution”.

3 - Garrett Foster was reportedly carrying an AK-47 rifle when he was shot to death in July by an armed man who had been driving a car through a crowd of Black Lives Matter protesters in Austin. Whether Foster threatened the driver with his gun is still disputed. The man who shot and killed Foster, the US army sergeant Daniel Perry, had previously tweeted “Now is the time to take up arms and protect yourselves against violence” and responded to a Trump tweet in June about “protesters, anarchists, agitators, looters” by saying, “Send them to Texas we will show them why we say don’t mess with Texas.” Citing those tweets, analysts at a thinktank that monitors domestic terrorism classified the shooting as an act of “violent far-right” domestic terrorism. But Perry has not yet faced any criminal charges, and a local prosecutor in Texas said the incident was still under investigation.

Both Reinoehl and Perry have claimed they were acting in self-defense when they opened fire and that they felt their own lives were in danger.

4 & 5 - In Kenosha in August, a 17-year-old carrying a rifle he was not old enough to legally possess shot and killed two people, Joseph Rosenbaum and Anthony Huber, and seriously injured a third at a volatile late-night protest. His lawyer has argued the teenager, who came to Kenosha from Illinois, was also acting in self-defense.

6 - In Louisville, the photographer Tyler Gerth was shot and killed at a downtown park where protesters gathered. The alleged shooter, Steven Nelson Lopez, was homeless and had a history of severe mental illness, and had reportedly been asked to leave the park earlier because of his behavior. Many of the protesters in the park were armed and on edge, and returned fire when Lopez started shooting, local news outlets reported.

7 - In Las Vegas, Jorge Gomez was wearing body armor and carrying several guns when he was shot to death by Las Vegas police at a protest in June. Before he was shot, several protesters told Gomez they disapproved of him being armed, and even a journalist questioned him about why he was holding his gun in his hand with his finger on the trigger, the Las Vegas Sun reported. Las Vegas police officer Shay Mikalonis was shot in the head during the same protest, and reportedly remains paralyzed from the injury. Officials have said the 20-year-old Las Vegas resident charged in the shooting had not been participating in the protest before the attack, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reported.

Other law enforcement officers have been injured in non-fatal shootings this year, including two Los Angeles sheriff’s deputies shot in Compton while sitting in their patrol car in mid-September, and two Louisville police officers shot in late September during a protest over the lack of serious charges against police officers in Breonna Taylor’s killing.

6 - James Scurlock, a Black Lives Matter protester with an infant daughter, was shot to death in Omaha in May after a confrontation with a white bar owner outside the man’s bar.

7 & 8 - Other demonstrators died when cars drove through or rammed into crowds of Black Lives Matter protesters. Summer Taylor, a Black Lives Matter protester who worked in a veterinary clinic, was killed in such an incident in Seattle. So was Robert Forbes, a black protester from Bakersfield whose sister recalled him demonstrating decades earlier over the brutal police beating of Rodney King. In St Louis, Barry Perkins, a father of two, was killed after being dragged and run over by a FedEx truck during a protest in May.

9 - 14 (Two California officers, one retired policemen) In addition to the people killed while demonstrating, at least 14 more Americans have been killed in other incidents linked to political unrest this summer, including seven people shot during alleged looting of businesses, among them David Dorn, a retired police officer shot during the robbery of a pawn shop in St Louis; two California law enforcement officers murdered by an alleged anti-government “Boogaloo” extremist, one person found dead in a pawn shop in Minneapolis that had been set on fire; an eight-year-old shot to death in Atlanta; and a Louisville restaurant owner who was shot dead by the national guard.

Some of those killings remain unsolved.

15 - One of two fatal shootings of young black men in Seattle’s self-declared “Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone” was not politically motivated, according to ACLED’s review of details in the case, but the June shooting of Antonio Mays Jr, a 16-year-old, was found to be connected to the broader unrest. A Seattle Times review of footage linked to the chaotic scene of the shooting suggested that some people in the protest zone might have believed they were under attack when they fired their guns at the stolen Jeep Mays and another young teenager were driving into the zone.

16 - Jessica Doty-Whitaker, a white woman, was shot to death early one July morning in Indianapolis. Her fiance told media outlets that her shooting had been preceded by a tense argument with some passerby about the use of a racial slur and the statements, “Black Lives Matter” v “All Lives Matter”. While they walked away from that confrontation, the fiance said, someone opened fire later and the 24-year-old mother was killed. Indianapolis police have not verified those claims or released any details about the circumstances of the shooting, and no one has been charged, but ACLED categorized the shooting as potentially politically motivated.

17 - Victor Cazares Jr was described by friends and family as a supporter of Black Lives Matter. On 1 June, a day of widespread protests across the country, he was shot to death outside a neighborhood grocery store in Cicero, Illinois, that he was reportedly trying to protect.

While a Chicago resident was quickly charged in the shooting death of another man, Jose Gutierrez, that same day in Cicero, the Cicero police department did not respond to requests for comment about whether anyone had yet been charged in Cazares’s death.

“He was just standing there making sure that everybody is OK,” Cazares’ sister told the Cicero Independiente. “He wasn’t there to cause any violence. He didn’t even have a weapon.”

Of the 17 listed as of October, Three were law enforcement. One was retired. And one, Victor Cezares, died attempting to stop opportunist looters at a grocery store.

Grognard, if you could provide me a link to the other nine murdered police officers, I would like to see that.

As for the evidence and eyewitness reports of voter fraud, all of that evidence would have been quite relevant in the 61 court cases dismissed for LACK OF EVIDENCE to counter the results of the votes confirmed by Vice President Mike Pence, the Electoral Colleges, and even a stay order dismissed by a heavily conservative Supreme Court case.

I see no logical reason for agents of the court to withhold evidence in support of their case in favor of their client, the 45th President.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 20, 2021, 03:43:35 pm
At the time of the Las Vegas violence where protester Gomez was slain by police, an officer was tragically severely injured - unrelated to the protesting, just one of the horrible dangers police officers DO ENCOUNTER.

Las Vegas police officer Shay Mikalonis was shot in the head during the same protest, and reportedly remains paralyzed from the injury. Officials have said the 20-year-old Las Vegas resident charged in the shooting had not been participating in the protest before the attack, the Las Vegas Review-Journal reported.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 20, 2021, 03:46:20 pm
Also, just going over the claims of city devastation and the numerous lives lost, here's a resource from a traditionally conservative publication - the Austin American Statesman, which debunks the claims as of August of last year.

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/08/10/fact-checking-claim-about-deaths-damage-from-black-lives-matter-protests/113878088/
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 20, 2021, 03:48:10 pm
The twelve fatalities number may be associated with this June Yahoo! article regarding our police officers injured.

https://news.yahoo.com/12-police-officers-shot-during-100000431.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHgJmpAdWHXTNVLG7Ats8tGIbQgK9ok649L0IsfLHHBhbR5OIrpyZQYgwCchxhVVaHZA-m3Tr3JAe6nBFGIvnx9fhlP1E5oMEb89QZ7U9YC6jEx3qVO4VnfKcsmVCZyz70iOfVx5l5_5HwxnnQinaF3bWeiRcZi3vR075e8NT7xS
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 20, 2021, 03:51:43 pm
Now I'd like to say this:
https://youtu.be/vUJr5inU-3Y

Does that look super organized or aggressive? Doesn't to me either, I'm not saying there weren't parts that may have been but the vast majority of what I've seen is deer in the headlights with zero plan of action.

How about this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGv2vnEarFk

Even the cop "Any chance I could get you guys to leave the Senate wing?" that doesn't sound like he feels they are in a life and death coop. Just my opinion, but it seems like a goof to a large degree. And I'm not discounting or defending their actions, I think what they did overall was stupid, probably criminal but not approaching treason or anything beyond IMHO. But my opinion is worth what you paid for it.


You have a great view of most of these knuckleheads.
Some were gross and defecated and smeared the halls.

But some were organized enough to sweep offices for mail and electronics to sell.
And other police officers received severe injuries, resulting in a fatality.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: luke213(adamsholsters) on January 20, 2021, 03:55:28 pm
You have a great view of most of these knuckleheads.
Some were gross and defecated and smeared the halls.

But some were organized enough to sweep offices for mail and electronics to sell.
And other police officers received severe injuries, resulting in a fatality.

That's fine, I wondered at the time if the people were a smoke screen of sorts to something more involved but I honestly haven't seen any real evidence and I've since tightened my tin foil hat;)

In fun news a Chinook just flew over the shop for no reason so there's that;)

Luke
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: coelacanth on January 20, 2021, 04:42:44 pm
So, to summarize then, the 2016 election was not overturned even though everyone knew it was rigged and now the 2020 election has not been overturned even though everyone knew it was rigged.   Got it?   

Also, when people take to the streets to protest something people are going to get hurt or killed because that's how people act toward each other when they get angry.  Or high.  Or both.  Police are always in the line of fire - from both sides - and if you are unfortunate enough to live or work where all this protesting is happening you're pretty much screwed because that's how people act at "mostly peaceful" protests.  Understand? 

Now that we've cleared all this up what else needs discussing?    :coffee

Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 20, 2021, 07:03:56 pm
I'll quietly point out that the 'rioting' that took place in DC when Trump took office was mostly a) Black Bloc, and b) a whole lot of women in pink kitty hats.

https://nypost.com/2017/01/21/women-descend-on-dc-to-push-back-against-trump/ (https://nypost.com/2017/01/21/women-descend-on-dc-to-push-back-against-trump/)
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 20, 2021, 07:41:35 pm
Also, when people take to the streets to protest something people are going to get hurt or killed because that's how people act toward each other when they get angry.  Or high.  Or both.  Police are always in the line of fire - from both sides - and if you are unfortunate enough to live or work where all this protesting is happening you're pretty much screwed because that's how people act at "mostly peaceful" protests.  Understand? 

Now that we've cleared all this up what else needs discussing?    :coffee

Indeed. But it's been shown that there have been 900 documented protests on the one side. Seventeen deaths and a police station burned down.

Those were in response to the fear of being executed by gunshot or strangling among an entire community literally in fear of never returning home from walking down the street.

The other protest was in response to the Georgia Secretary of State not finding 11,800 more ballots sitting around somewhere.

 :coffee

Truly, coelecanth, you are one of the best members on this board and why I missed it. 
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Plebian on January 20, 2021, 08:40:55 pm
Those were in response to the fear of being executed by gunshot or strangling among an entire community literally in fear of never returning home from walking down the street.

What are they scared of? Being killed by police? Being killed by white people?

Is the fear they feel rational and based on facts or just feelings?

I have never found any statistical data to show black individuals should fear the police more than any other race OR fear white people more than any other race. If we wish to go by data then blacks should be deathly afraid of other black individuals. A black individual is 28 times more likely to be killed by another black individual than a white individual(police or not). Blacks commit over 50% of the homicide in the US.

I am not saying this with any malice. Just the numbers never add up that blacks should fear whites.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Maestro on January 21, 2021, 04:50:19 am
I'll start by saying that everything that follows is opinion:

Opportunistic a**holes take any opportunity they are given to steal. That happened during every event discussed in this thread.

Violent a**holes take any opportunity to hurt people or cause damage. That happened during every event discussed in this thread.

The point being that some (left wing and right wing) media outlets, politicians, and pundits have taken the stance that one set of actions is okay and the other is not. I honestly think that is the problem most folks have. Being told that the violence and crime by one side was justified while the other was not. Frankly, I don't think either was justified. I point again to this article from the left leaning Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/americans-killed-protests-political-unrest-acled

That level of violence is ridiculous.  And it came from both sides of the political spectrum.

All that said, I will paraphrase Larry Correia. The BLM and ANTIFA folks seem to have this sliding spectrum of violence and protest, from 1 being a gathering of folks with signs to 10 being outright arson, looting, and attacks. The right wing groups, however, only seem to have an on/off setting. So far, these idiots took an opportunity when presented with it and went into the Capitol building and acted like fools. Not all of them to be sure. But plenty of them. There may even have been a very few of them who might have had the intention to do just that, but we are talking only a couple individuals. This was NOT the insurrection or coup that so many are worried about. If it were to ever happen, then there wouldn't be any doubt.

Just a reminder that any large group of people is only as intelligent as the least intelligent member of the group. So I will not be participating in any large group rallies or events for any political event. I'd hate to bring the average intelligence down any further  :D
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 21, 2021, 12:34:36 pm
I'll start by saying that everything that follows is opinion:

Opportunistic a**holes take any opportunity they are given to steal. That happened during every event discussed in this thread.

Violent a**holes take any opportunity to hurt people or cause damage. That happened during every event discussed in this thread.

The point being that some (left wing and right wing) media outlets, politicians, and pundits have taken the stance that one set of actions is okay and the other is not. I honestly think that is the problem most folks have. Being told that the violence and crime by one side was justified while the other was not. Frankly, I don't think either was justified. I point again to this article from the left leaning Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/americans-killed-protests-political-unrest-acled

That level of violence is ridiculous.  And it came from both sides of the political spectrum.

All that said, I will paraphrase Larry Correia. The BLM and ANTIFA folks seem to have this sliding spectrum of violence and protest, from 1 being a gathering of folks with signs to 10 being outright arson, looting, and attacks. The right wing groups, however, only seem to have an on/off setting. So far, these idiots took an opportunity when presented with it and went into the Capitol building and acted like fools. Not all of them to be sure. But plenty of them. There may even have been a very few of them who might have had the intention to do just that, but we are talking only a couple individuals. This was NOT the insurrection or coup that so many are worried about. If it were to ever happen, then there wouldn't be any doubt.

Just a reminder that any large group of people is only as intelligent as the least intelligent member of the group. So I will not be participating in any large group rallies or events for any political event. I'd hate to bring the average intelligence down any further  :D

Quoted for truth.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 21, 2021, 01:00:43 pm
What are they scared of? Being killed by police? Being killed by white people?

Is the fear they feel rational and based on facts or just feelings?

I have never found any statistical data to show black individuals should fear the police more than any other race OR fear white people more than any other race. If we wish to go by data then blacks should be deathly afraid of other black individuals. A black individual is 28 times more likely to be killed by another black individual than a white individual(police or not). Blacks commit over 50% of the homicide in the US.

I am not saying this with any malice. Just the numbers never add up that blacks should fear whites.

Per capita, for the same crimes, black people are 3.5x more likely to be killed over a police interaction than it is for a white perpetrator.

Cases like
Anton Hill - shown unarmed and only holding a phone shot and not given EMS treatment.
Casey Goodson Jr. - shot because of an alleged gun waving incident of which only one police officer reported - the one who took it under his own impetus to follow him home and shoot him as he was akimbo wielding a bag of Subway sammiches and his house keys, and was again denied medical treatment to keep him from dying after he was no longer a threat.
Elijah McClain - a young nerd who complied, and yet was still put in a carotid headlock which cut off the flow of blood to his brain requiring EMS to come... and then EMS gave him a lethal dose of Ketamine, a horse tranquilizer.
Lionel Womack - a retired police officer who should "know better and have complied" STILL ran from cops and then was hit and injured by a Deputy (as another squad car called in followed and filmed the pursuit).
Quawan Charles - whom was not slain by police, but the Baldwin sheriff's office which should have issued an Amber Alert dismissed his family's concerns over their missing son.
Devon Gregory - who was being driven home from work, and either shot himself in the head out of sheer terror at what a half dozen officers and K-9's would do to them when they pulled him out of his brother's vehicle, the gunshot sparking a salvo of 35 shots into the car, or was begging officers to tell his family he loves them before he reached for a weapon he didn't even know was in the car.
Botham Jean - who was mistaken for a home intruder in his own living room, with ice cream and in his pajamas...
Breonna Taylor - who was asleep when a No-Knock warrant was served AT THE WRONG ADDRESS.
Sandra Bland - who suffered injuries and "somehow died" in police custody for a mere traffic stop.

(I'm not including Jacob Blake who was stealing his wife's car and abducting his children. I'm not including Michael Brown who was trying to tear a gun out of an officer's holster to kill him. I'm not including Rayshard Brooks who actually took a police weapon and thus could injure an officer and take THEIR gun.)

The list of questionable shootings and the need for civilian review of these shootings is exactly a terror.

Black mothers have, what I feel, is a valid fear of their children being summarily executed for having a counterfeit $20 bill, selling cigarettes without a license or tax stamp, or playing in the park with a toy gun.

Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Doug Wojtowicz on January 21, 2021, 02:10:31 pm
As for a contrast to the drunk dudes in the Senate chamber:

https://www.tiktok.com/@thtnrdchk86/video/6920274202276793606?lang=en&is_copy_url=0&is_from_webapp=v2&sender_device=pc&sender_web_id=6795703424324879877
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Plebian on January 21, 2021, 02:54:26 pm
Per capita, for the same crimes, black people are 3.5x more likely to be killed over a police interaction than it is for a white perpetrator.

Cases like
Anton Hill - shown unarmed and only holding a phone shot and not given EMS treatment.
Casey Goodson Jr. - shot because of an alleged gun waving incident of which only one police officer reported - the one who took it under his own impetus to follow him home and shoot him as he was akimbo wielding a bag of Subway sammiches and his house keys, and was again denied medical treatment to keep him from dying after he was no longer a threat.
Elijah McClain - a young nerd who complied, and yet was still put in a carotid headlock which cut off the flow of blood to his brain requiring EMS to come... and then EMS gave him a lethal dose of Ketamine, a horse tranquilizer.
Lionel Womack - a retired police officer who should "know better and have complied" STILL ran from cops and then was hit and injured by a Deputy (as another squad car called in followed and filmed the pursuit).
Quawan Charles - whom was not slain by police, but the Baldwin sheriff's office which should have issued an Amber Alert dismissed his family's concerns over their missing son.
Devon Gregory - who was being driven home from work, and either shot himself in the head out of sheer terror at what a half dozen officers and K-9's would do to them when they pulled him out of his brother's vehicle, the gunshot sparking a salvo of 35 shots into the car, or was begging officers to tell his family he loves them before he reached for a weapon he didn't even know was in the car.
Botham Jean - who was mistaken for a home intruder in his own living room, with ice cream and in his pajamas...
Breonna Taylor - who was asleep when a No-Knock warrant was served AT THE WRONG ADDRESS.
Sandra Bland - who suffered injuries and "somehow died" in police custody for a mere traffic stop.

(I'm not including Jacob Blake who was stealing his wife's car and abducting his children. I'm not including Michael Brown who was trying to tear a gun out of an officer's holster to kill him. I'm not including Rayshard Brooks who actually took a police weapon and thus could injure an officer and take THEIR gun.)

The list of questionable shootings and the need for civilian review of these shootings is exactly a terror.

Black mothers have, what I feel, is a valid fear of their children being summarily executed for having a counterfeit $20 bill, selling cigarettes without a license or tax stamp, or playing in the park with a toy gun.

Per capita that is correct. Per police interaction they are less likely to die from police than whites. The individual actions that you point out should be addressed, but the statistics just do not follow that police as a whole need some sort of correction when dealing with black individuals.

You have a population making up under 14% of the nation committing over 50% of the murders. That fits nicely with that 3.5 times number of deaths per capita. So just dealing with murderers the police are interacting with 3.5 times more black than white individuals. 

You also have the issue of blacks killing whites at 16% of white deaths. Where whites killing blacks are 8% of black deaths.

I fully understand feelings are important when addressing things, but if those feelings are based on just feelings and not objective facts/data. It becomes very hard to systematically address those issues as the system is functioning in a fair manner.

I know you will just dismiss this as it doesn't fit the narrative being espoused these days, and I truly hate bringing up the statistics on these issues.

Just if we are truly wishing to save black lives. Would we not want to address the nearly 90% of all murders first?

If you wish to double check statistics or my numbers. The FBI database is yours to check just as I have. It is hard to find these numbers painted in anyway but POLICE BAD and WHITES BAD in any news source but the raw data is free to the public.

You can also bring up income inequality as the cause of black murders/criminal behavior, but since we have double the population of whites below the poverty line than blacks. This angle doesn't stand up either.       
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 21, 2021, 05:36:49 pm
Per capita that is correct. Per police interaction they are less likely to die from police than whites. The individual actions that you point out should be addressed, but the statistics just do not follow that police as a whole need some sort of correction when dealing with black individuals.

Wrong.

Quote
According to The Guardian's database, in 2016 the rate of fatal police shootings per million was 10.13 for Native Americans, 6.6 for black people, 3.23 for Hispanics; 2.9 for white people and 1.17 for Asians.[12] In absolute numbers, police kill more white people than any other race or ethnicity, however this must be understood in light of the fact that white people make up the largest proportion of the US population.[43] As a percentage of the U.S. population, black Americans were 2.5 times more likely than whites to be killed by the police in 2015.[43] A 2015 study found that unarmed blacks were 3.49 times more likely to be shot by police than were unarmed whites.[13] Another study published in 2016 concluded that the mortality rate of legal interventions among black and Hispanic people was 2.8 and 1.7 times higher than that among white people. Another 2015 study concluded that black people were 2.8 times more likely to be killed by police than whites. They also concluded that black people were more likely to be unarmed than white people who were in turn more likely to be unarmed than Hispanic people shot by the police.[44][45] A 2018 study in the American Journal of Public Health found the mortality rate by police per 100,000 was 1.9 to 2.4 for black men, 0.8 to 1.2 for Hispanic men and 0.6 to 0.7 for white men.[46] A 2020 study found "strong and statistically reliable evidence of anti-Black racial disparities in the killing of unarmed Americans by police in 2015–2016."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_deadly_force_in_the_United_States#:~:text=A%202018%20study%20in%20the,to%200.7%20for%20white%20men. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_deadly_force_in_the_United_States#:~:text=A%202018%20study%20in%20the,to%200.7%20for%20white%20men.)
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 21, 2021, 05:39:02 pm
Nearly 1 In 5 Defendants In Capitol Riot Cases Served In The Military

https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/958915267/nearly-one-in-five-defendants-in-capitol-riot-cases-served-in-the-military?fbclid=IwAR2kP_VB-pJniHwxAyd_9N1HBI0YJcyI89-6qKh3gP-9on07DATDnTwi1O8 (https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/958915267/nearly-one-in-five-defendants-in-capitol-riot-cases-served-in-the-military?fbclid=IwAR2kP_VB-pJniHwxAyd_9N1HBI0YJcyI89-6qKh3gP-9on07DATDnTwi1O8)

Portland Police Charge 8 After Demonstrators Vandalize Democratic Party Offices
https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/959109593/portland-police-charge-8-after-demonstrators-vandalize-democratic-party-offices?fbclid=IwAR26WLGuICqQq-dvAG94emoNX1T4eQtNqa8EP98cAEX3lZNJp8z6I76Rmek (https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/959109593/portland-police-charge-8-after-demonstrators-vandalize-democratic-party-offices?fbclid=IwAR26WLGuICqQq-dvAG94emoNX1T4eQtNqa8EP98cAEX3lZNJp8z6I76Rmek)

Gonna haveta disagree with Larry, too...
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: LowKey on January 21, 2021, 07:32:44 pm
1 in 5?  OMG, 20%  were vets!!!!!
Panic!!!!!
 :neener :neener :neener :neener :neener

So less than half of half of the demonstrators at the Capitol building were/are veterans.
  :coffee

Nearly 1 In 5 Defendants In Capitol Riot Cases Served In The Military

https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/958915267/nearly-one-in-five-defendants-in-capitol-riot-cases-served-in-the-military?fbclid=IwAR2kP_VB-pJniHwxAyd_9N1HBI0YJcyI89-6qKh3gP-9on07DATDnTwi1O8 (https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/958915267/nearly-one-in-five-defendants-in-capitol-riot-cases-served-in-the-military?fbclid=IwAR2kP_VB-pJniHwxAyd_9N1HBI0YJcyI89-6qKh3gP-9on07DATDnTwi1O8)

Portland Police Charge 8 After Demonstrators Vandalize Democratic Party Offices
https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/959109593/portland-police-charge-8-after-demonstrators-vandalize-democratic-party-offices?fbclid=IwAR26WLGuICqQq-dvAG94emoNX1T4eQtNqa8EP98cAEX3lZNJp8z6I76Rmek (https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/959109593/portland-police-charge-8-after-demonstrators-vandalize-democratic-party-offices?fbclid=IwAR26WLGuICqQq-dvAG94emoNX1T4eQtNqa8EP98cAEX3lZNJp8z6I76Rmek)

Gonna haveta disagree with Larry, too...
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Plebian on January 21, 2021, 10:03:32 pm
Wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_deadly_force_in_the_United_States#:~:text=A%202018%20study%20in%20the,to%200.7%20for%20white%20men. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_deadly_force_in_the_United_States#:~:text=A%202018%20study%20in%20the,to%200.7%20for%20white%20men.)

Your source is only going by per capita numbers, NOT per police interactions. It also doesn't take into consideration records or actions of those killed. It is a source compiled by The Guardian, and this particular source has been questioned a few times on their data collection.

Also to use wikipedia as a YOUR source for anything is questionable.

If you wish to question why blacks are interacting with police so often. Then that has some standing, and it likely needs to be looked into for causes. Just all the data I have ever seen on data PER POLICE ENCOUNTER. Shows it works out to whites being slightly more likely to be killed by officers than blacks, hispanic or native. But it is not by much for any particular race or even unknown individuals. I would assume this is just a large numbers problem. Since whites are interacted with most often by police, given they are the largest segment of the population. 

I mean it took me mere seconds of internet investigation to see the source Wiki used. Look at that source then find how they collected the data, and then to find many, many questions on their data collection with clearly poor sourcing of the data The Guardian used. The Guardian seems to like to ignore some data if it doesn't fit well. 

This is pretty understandable once you look at the source, The Guardian, and understand they are left for even left wing UK politics.

All the data I have used is from FBI Expanded Homicide data, US department of Justice and/or Reuters compilations of said data. I hope Reuters is a good enough source for some of the compilation data, as I think they are one of the most accepted/unbiased news source out there.

If we start lining up numbers to jive in logical ways it begins to make sense. Black individuals commit crimes and interact with police at about 3.5 times the rate of white individuals. Black individuals are killed by police at about a rate of 3.5 times more than white individuals. That sure seems to correlate pretty well to explain the difference per capita.   
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Maestro on January 22, 2021, 04:38:39 am

Gonna haveta disagree with Larry, too...

I'm going to have to agree with Larry actually. The vast majority of those on the right look at your above cases and shake their heads at little kids throwing a temper tantrum. Not any kind of organized activity. I only paraphrased Larry to point out that the Capitol Hill debacle was NOT any kind of truly organized insurrection or coup attempt as has been suggested by several media sources.

Even those who agree with the ideas that spawned their actions (stolen election, erosion of rights, whatever), still look at them with a snicker and a shake of the head. What these folks have done so far is no insurrection. It is, as I said, a temper tantrum.

Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: booksmart on January 22, 2021, 02:19:33 pm
Your source is only going by per capita numbers, NOT per police interactions. It also doesn't take into consideration records or actions of those killed. It is a source compiled by The Guardian, and this particular source has been questioned a few times on their data collection.

Also to use wikipedia as a YOUR source for anything is questionable.

If you wish to question why blacks are interacting with police so often. Then that has some standing, and it likely needs to be looked into for causes. Just all the data I have ever seen on data PER POLICE ENCOUNTER. Shows it works out to whites being slightly more likely to be killed by officers than blacks, hispanic or native. But it is not by much for any particular race or even unknown individuals. I would assume this is just a large numbers problem. Since whites are interacted with most often by police, given they are the largest segment of the population. 

I mean it took me mere seconds of internet investigation to see the source Wiki used. Look at that source then find how they collected the data, and then to find many, many questions on their data collection with clearly poor sourcing of the data The Guardian used. The Guardian seems to like to ignore some data if it doesn't fit well. 

This is pretty understandable once you look at the source, The Guardian, and understand they are left for even left wing UK politics.

All the data I have used is from FBI Expanded Homicide data, US department of Justice and/or Reuters compilations of said data. I hope Reuters is a good enough source for some of the compilation data, as I think they are one of the most accepted/unbiased news source out there.

If we start lining up numbers to jive in logical ways it begins to make sense. Black individuals commit crimes and interact with police at about 3.5 times the rate of white individuals. Black individuals are killed by police at about a rate of 3.5 times more than white individuals. That sure seems to correlate pretty well to explain the difference per capita.   

You missed a line.

Quote
Another study published in 2016 concluded that the mortality rate of legal interventions among black and Hispanic people was 2.8 and 1.7 times higher than that among white people.

Yeah, I'd consider Reuters a good source. Like I've said, they and the AP are rigorous in their fact checking. I'll see what I find on their site.
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: Plebian on January 22, 2021, 04:47:48 pm
You missed a line.

Yeah, I'd consider Reuters a good source. Like I've said, they and the AP are rigorous in their fact checking. I'll see what I find on their site.

Again, the study they use goes by per capita instead of by police interaction per capita. They are not saying per police intervention. They are simply saying the mortality rate of legal interventions among black and hispanic works out to 2.8 and 1.7 times higher than whites PER CAPITA. I know the wording is funky. That is why I usually just ignore what places like The Guardian say and go straight to their sources. IF they even provide such.

I have looked at these data sets WAY more than I ever wish to do so. It was very shocking to me to see a continuous set of obvious manipulation of reporting on data. It actually follows the same trend for gun violence and overall violence reporting.

I assume the old, 'if it bleeds. It leads.', has just been exacerbated with the internet and the death of old media/reporting.

I would assume saying violence overall is at historic lows per capita, interracial violence is at all time lows, and the murder rate in general has been steadily declining, doesn't sell very well.

I truly wish sociologists were free to look into racial differences, but it is basically a death sentence for your career if you do. I understand it is a delicate subject and the NAZIs ruined it, but it would be very good to study these things in depth without assuming a conclusion and finding data to support it.     
Title: Re: Where is the point of no return?
Post by: coelacanth on January 22, 2021, 06:26:03 pm
Indeed. But it's been shown that there have been 900 documented protests on the one side. Seventeen deaths and a police station burned down.

Those were in response to the fear of being executed by gunshot or strangling among an entire community literally in fear of never returning home from walking down the street.

The other protest was in response to the Georgia Secretary of State not finding 11,800 more ballots sitting around somewhere.

 :coffee

Truly, coelecanth, you are one of the best members on this board and why I missed it. 
Well thanks Doug, I appreciate that and take it as a compliment.  That said, I believe I'm going to line up with Plebian and Maestro in their recent posts and remind you and booksmart - and all the rest of us - that cherry picking data to reinforce the point you're trying to make is a debate tactic.  At best it is an academic exercise and at worst the game played by lawyers when other people's lives are on the line.  If you seek objective truth you cannot ignore or conceal inconvenient facts or even ignore an unexplained dearth of data that ought to be evident but isn't.  The fact that you don't understand something or disagree with the conclusions others may draw from it is the most compelling reason it must be examined and understood completely for your own peace of mind and credibility. 

None of what is being discussed in this thread exists in a vacuum and we cannot treat it as though it did if we seek objective truth.  You know, the kind that forces us all to sit quietly and acknowledge we cannot truly see any issue from the other person's point of view.  The kind that forces us to acknowledge that our pattern recognition skills may have led us astray because we quit looking objectively at a problem once we thought we understood it. The kind that may lead us to the conclusion we are still wrestling with the same problem(s) we were 20,000 years ago and maybe we are no better equipped to solve them than our ancestors were. 

We have some new problems but they have just been heaped on top of the old ones we still struggle with.