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General Topics => Activism and Gun Politics => Topic started by: coelacanth on February 27, 2019, 04:52:03 pm

Title: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on February 27, 2019, 04:52:03 pm
This fire is currently listed as 0% contained.   :coffee

https://www.recoilweb.com/benchmade-destroys-guns-internet-in-flames-147391.html
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: ZeroTA on February 27, 2019, 05:50:28 pm
They cooperated to help out with a retarded buyback. Goodwill to local PD and whatnot. People are losing their s*** but I don't see a problem. The bigger issue is the recently (last couple days) uncovered donations to Democrat campaigns but that's not at all uncommon among mainstream "defense" companies. Not really cool, but not at all uncommon. Business is business.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on February 27, 2019, 06:22:30 pm
"Defense Company" my a$$.  Their bread and butter is and has always been the civilian market.  Les De Asis can pucker up and kiss my big round butt.  "Business is business" and my business is going elsewhere.   Any gun shop I wander into that has a big old Benchmade display is going to hear about it before I take my dollars elsewhere.  Might not change anything but the point will have been made.   I'm through making excuses for people that should know better and are gambling on my silent acquiescence.   
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: MTK20 on February 27, 2019, 08:49:00 pm
Quote
Benchmade is aware of the recent post from our local Oregon City Police Department.

We apologize for the confusion and concern that this post created. These were firearms that the Oregon City Police Department had to destroy in alignment with their policies. Oregon City Police requested the use of specialty equipment within the Benchmade facility to follow these requirements, and as a supporting partner of our local police force, we obliged the request.

Benchmade is a proud and unwavering supporter of both law enforcement and Second Amendment rights. These are commitments that we do not take lightly and will continue to support well into the future.

When asked for clarity from Oregon City Police Department, Chief Jim Band made the following statement: “When property is to be destroyed, it is the policy of the Oregon City Police Department to destroy property, including firearms, in accordance to our procedures and ORS. The Oregon City Police Department does not sell firearms.”

-Benchmade


They spun this as being supportive of LEO's. I like both guns and cops  :shrug .
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on February 27, 2019, 09:25:27 pm
A) They did not have to participate in this.  A polite "No, thank you."  would have sufficed.  In light of the fact that Oregon just passed "Red Flag Laws" they could not determine whether those firearms had simply been confiscated without due process and should not have been involved in the situation at all.  I don't really give a rat's a$$ what the "policies" of the Oregon City Police Department are and neither should Benchmade Knives in this instance. If the police need additional equipment to carry out their duties they should take it up with the city council - not private sector companies looking to curry favor with local law enforcement agencies. 

B) Benchmade Knives and/or people in their employ have made substantial political contributions to left wing, anti-second amendment politicians in the name of that company.  Some of those contributions have been in Oregon and some have been for politicians outside the state of Oregon.  I am not seeing any of this as being "unwavering" in support of Second Amendment rights.  Its a nice, boilerplate public relations document designed to paper over the worst of the damage but with the current rash of anti-Second Amendment legislation currently pending in the U.S. House of Representatives those contributions stand in stark contrast with their official, statement.   Apparently their idea of commitment to the unwavering support of Second Amendment rights and mine are considerably different.

The local police are duty bound to support their political masters - regardless the carnage it wreaks upon law abiding gun owners through the recently instituted Red Flag Laws.  Benchmade Knives is not.  So far they are free to choose what course they will follow.  They will suffer the consequences that all companies do when they venture into the cesspool of political advocacy.   The first rule of politics is this: Friends come and go but enemies accumulate. 

I don't own a Benchmade knife.  I think they are generally overpriced, over-hyped junk.  That is a personal decision based, at this point, on the perception of quality vs the reality of sale price and has nothing to do with this recent flap.  That said, Benchmade opened up this can of worms all by themselves and invited a much greater degree of scrutiny than they might otherwise have been subject to.  I don't think they are going to be pleased with the outcome of that level of critique.  They just P.O'd a significant portion of their customer base and there is a lot of competition out there. 

The next time I go into a gun shop and there is a big old product display of Benchmade Knives you can bet I am going to comment on the embarrassment of having that crap in their store before I walk out the door and take my money to someplace that doesn't continue to fund our political enemies.  If you take the recent post of the article by Tom Gresham seriously you might consider doing the same.  Les De Asis can pucker up and kiss my big round butt.  The world will get along just fine without BenchMade Knives should it come to that.   :coffee
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: booksmart on February 28, 2019, 09:06:22 am
I'll just quietly point out that "agreeing to help out" is not "currying favor".

Currying favor is "Hey, got anything we can destroy for you? On the cheap? With maybe some kickbacks?"
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: AltRight Vanguard on February 28, 2019, 09:57:32 am
I think I have to agree with Mr. Booksmart.  If my construction company was located next to a police department, and the Chief came by and asked if he could borrow our excavator for a few hours...  What would I say?  Probably 'yes,' and ask him if he would like one of my guys to run it.  But that's me, maybe others are different.

From what I gather, the police department had a policy to destroy confiscated guns, (this is Oregon after all) and they needed help fitting the guns in small boxes so they could send them out to be destroyed.  Benchmade had the equipment to help out, and they agreed to do so.  So where is the problem?  That the guns were destroyed?  No, if Benchmade had declined to help, some hapless rookie cop would have spent quality time with a Harbor Freight angle grinder in the PD basement. So the guns were 100% going to be destroyed either way. 

Maybe the outrage is that the PD destroyed the guns instead of reselling them and saving money for the tax payers.  That I can definitely get on board with, and I would hope that citizens remind the city council about this the next time the PD asks for an increase in funding.  But again, this is Oregon, and the council members - and hell, maybe even the public - are likely okay with higher taxes for fewer guns.

As far as the outrage at Benchmade donating to leftist politicians, that actually makes good sense for them.  I can see why a company that makes 'deadly weapons' might want an ally or two in congress, 'just in case.'  Do we forget that President Trump once was a contributor to the likes of Hillary Clinton and Michael Bloomberg?  Because those were the candidates that could win in that city and state, and it was beneficial for him to have a few favors on call.


But if a person feels that they need to boycott Benchmade... That is their right.  I truly believe that individual liberty is the way to go, and that holding private companies accountable through our voluntarily association is the best way to prevent bad behavior in the future.  I just... I can't see this as bad behavior.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: RetroGrouch on February 28, 2019, 03:45:18 pm
Look, the financial company my wife works for is owned and run by conservatives, my wife is conservative and she has a bill she helped get passed hanging in her office signed by Nancy Pelosi.  She personally met with former Senator Bill Nelson (D, FL) and even gave his campaign a donation.  But working with those Liberal Democrats got her industry and company a favorable bill passed through the US House and Senate and signed by President Obama.


So did the company sell out?  Hell no, they got something for who they worked with, as distasteful as it was.  If Benchmade wants to go public and say, hey, we were trying to help the local cops, those images were never supposed to be recorded / made public and those donations got us X, Y and Z, that would be distasteful, but they could show the knife community, and maybe even the gun community why it made sense.  So far, their official stance seems to be more along the lines of we are sorry we got caught, but we really are 2nd Amendment supporters, without showing any supporting evidence.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on February 28, 2019, 07:26:32 pm
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=KNGmVpadElA        :coffee
Title: Benchmade's PR problem
Post by: AltRight Vanguard on March 01, 2019, 09:58:17 am
I unfortunately still fail to see the outrage. 

On one hand, 'they couldn't know' how the guns were confiscated.  That isn't their job either.  The PD handled the legal part, and they helped out when it was asked of them.  For all any of us knows, that SKS could be an illegally modified MG.  It is on the police, how or why they were in possession of those guns, and Benchmade has legitimate plausible deniability.  I would feel different if there was an ongoing door to door gun confiscation going on, because then Benchmade would straight up know that they were aiding and abetting a constitutional crime.  But in this case, all they were doing was being a good neighbor to the local PD.

The donations is a bit more concerning, now that I have seen the breakdown, but not so much to provoke outrage.  I refer back to my previous response, which still stands, but I also now see that it is pretty clear that the owner of the company leans left.  (so do my parents-in-law, Hard left, and I still associate with them)  The out of state contributions may have a good explanation, which is none of our business to know. 

The chart showed contributions to a leftist from Massachusetts... but they also showed some to Sen. Scott Brown, a tea party Republican from Massachusetts.  Makes me think that they were really trying to butter up to folks in the Pilgrim State.  Why?  Who knows.  Maybe they wanted to look at relocating.  Maybe to get a contract.  We don't know.  But the nature of donating to two very different Massachusetts politicians would seem to tell us that the contributions were a means to an end.

I am about as pro gun as I can possibly be, but I reject the idea that a person must be shunned if they are not ideologically pure.  That is what the leftists do, and while the time may yet come for us to do the same, it is not yet.
Title: Re: Benchmade's PR problem
Post by: MTK20 on March 01, 2019, 12:33:00 pm
I am about as pro gun as I can possibly be, but I reject the idea that a person must be shunned if they are not ideologically pure.  That is what the leftists do, and while the time may yet come for us to do the same, it is not yet.

Regarding ideological purity (and deviating from topic slightly), I have always felt that Fudds were more dangerous to gun liberty then hard left leaning "take them all" types.

Sadly, the soft shelled, 'reasonable compromise', sunshine patriot individuals seem to often be used as the poster child for justifying the signing of anti-liberty laws into place. Because "if Biden owns a gun" and he's okay with some reasonable gun compromise, or if Benchmade is okay with it, or if Dick's sporting goods takes a stand against assault rifles, or if Houston police chief Art Acevedo says that gun owners should be held legally liable for any illegal actions committed by a criminal after stealing the law abiding owners guns....

The list goes on. These half measure, 'please all sides' individuals will be the death knell to freedom in this country.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: Mikee5star on March 01, 2019, 02:02:13 pm
I am far from a gun grabber, but yet I have personally done something similar to what Benchmade did.  I found three .22lr rifles in a trash heap while cleaning up after commercial fishermen, no clue when the rifles were dumped/abandoned.  I took them to the local cop, he ran the numbers and they did not come up stolen or otherwise of interest to law enforcement.  I was given them back and told to do what ever I wanted with them.  Two were too badly damaged by exposure and lack of maintenance to be safe to try to shoot, so I cut them up.  I was worried that if I threw them in the dump someone would be injured trying to shoot them.  I made sure that there was absolutely no way to ever repair the guns if anyone ever found the parts.

I did use the receiver on one of the rifles to build up a rifle for my kid, but at this point I don't think there are any original parts left on that gun.  Except the stock, and I cut that down reshaped and repainted it.  I also did not trust the receiver barrel interface and have replaced the receiver.   
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on March 01, 2019, 02:04:25 pm
Regarding ideological purity (and deviating from topic slightly), I have always felt that Fudds were more dangerous to gun liberty then hard left leaning "take them all" types.

Sadly, the soft shelled, 'reasonable compromise', sunshine patriot individuals seem to often be used as the poster child for justifying the signing of anti-liberty laws into place. Because "if Biden owns a gun" and he's okay with some reasonable gun compromise, or if Benchmade is okay with it, or if Dick's sporting goods takes a stand against assault rifles, or if Houston police chief Art Acevedo says that gun owners should be held legally liable for any illegal actions committed by a criminal after stealing the law abiding owners guns....

The list goes on. These half measure, 'please all sides' individuals will be the death knell to freedom in this country.

Well said.  That appears to be the situation re: Benchmade Knives.   Watching the pathetic response video from the head of the company Les de Asis tells me all I need to know about them.  If they have done nothing wrong or nothing to be ashamed of why did they most recently vow not to engage in any further gun destruction activities?   

Their response to this is typical of business people who should know better but go ahead and engage in highly questionable activities anyway - usually to curry favor with one group or another or just to try and appease both sides of a controversial issue without alienating past customers and potential new ones. 

Eventually the company and the people who run it revert to type because the deception is no longer worth the time, effort and money to try and maintain.   Unfortunately the stink and stain of the effort to deceive remain long after the act is done and over with which is why I characterized this latest flap as a "dirty diaper".   Remember the first rule of politics.

This is not the first instance of this and it won't be the last - its just the one that smells the worst at the moment. 
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on March 01, 2019, 02:08:22 pm
I am far from a gun grabber, but yet I have personally done something similar to what Benchmade did.  I found three .22lr rifles in a trash heap while cleaning up after commercial fishermen, no clue when the rifles were dumped/abandoned.  I took them to the local cop, he ran the numbers and they did not come up stolen or otherwise of interest to law enforcement.  I was given them back and told to do what ever I wanted with them.  Two were too badly damaged by exposure and lack of maintenance to be safe to try to shoot, so I cut them up.  I was worried that if I threw them in the dump someone would be injured trying to shoot them.  I made sure that there was absolutely no way to ever repair the guns if anyone ever found the parts.

I did use the receiver on one of the rifles to build up a rifle for my kid, but at this point I don't think there are any original parts left on that gun.  Except the stock, and I cut that down reshaped and repainted it.  I also did not trust the receiver barrel interface and have replaced the receiver.   
Apples to oranges comparison, or so it seems to me.  You did what any responsible gun owner would do when you found the rifles.  Once you found out there was no law enforcement issue with keeping them you assessed their condition and  proceeded in a logical and reasonable manner.   Unless you have a history of donating money to anti-gun politicians your actions bear little similarity to Benchmade's.   :coffee
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on March 01, 2019, 02:12:06 pm
Regarding ideological purity (and deviating from topic slightly), I have always felt that Fudds were more dangerous to gun liberty then hard left leaning "take them all" types.

Sadly, the soft shelled, 'reasonable compromise', sunshine patriot individuals seem to often be used as the poster child for justifying the signing of anti-liberty laws into place. Because "if Biden owns a gun" and he's okay with some reasonable gun compromise, or if Benchmade is okay with it, or if Dick's sporting goods takes a stand against assault rifles, or if Houston police chief Art Acevedo says that gun owners should be held legally liable for any illegal actions committed by a criminal after stealing the law abiding owners guns....

The list goes on. These half measure, 'please all sides' individuals will be the death knell to freedom in this country.
What exactly is a "Fudd" ?   Please enlighten us.    :hmm
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: Mikee5star on March 01, 2019, 02:15:48 pm
Regarding ideological purity (and deviating from topic slightly), I have always felt that Fudds were more dangerous to gun liberty then hard left leaning "take them all" types.

Sadly, the soft shelled, 'reasonable compromise', sunshine patriot individuals seem to often be used as the poster child for justifying the signing of anti-liberty laws into place. Because "if Biden owns a gun" and he's okay with some reasonable gun compromise, or if Benchmade is okay with it, or if Dick's sporting goods takes a stand against assault rifles, or if Houston police chief Art Acevedo says that gun owners should be held legally liable for any illegal actions committed by a criminal after stealing the law abiding owners guns....

The list goes on. These half measure, 'please all sides' individuals will be the death knell to freedom in this country.

Agreed.

Well said.  That appears to be the situation re: Benchmade Knives.   Watching the pathetic response video from the head of the company Les de Asis tells me all I need to know about them.  If they have done nothing wrong or nothing to be ashamed of why did they most recently vow not to engage in any further gun destruction activities?   

Their response to this is typical of business people who should know better but go ahead and engage in highly questionable activities anyway - usually to curry favor with one group or another or just to try and appease both sides of a controversial issue without alienating past customers and potential new ones.  Eventually the company and the people who run it revert to type because the deception is no longer worth the time, effort and money to try and maintain.   Unfortunately the stink and stain of the effort to deceive remain long after the act is done and over with which is why I characterized this latest flap as a "dirty diaper".   Remember the first rule of politics.

This is not the first instance of this and it won't be the last - its just the one that smells the worst at the moment. 

Agreed.

I own one Benchmade knife that I purchased.  I like the design, not an in-house design, but the execution is blah and not worth the price.  I barely look at any of their products and am not missing anything.  I am many times more likely to find a knife that fits my needs, budget, and eye elsewhere.  My money will go elsewhere

Apples to oranges comparison, or so it seems to me.  You did what any responsible gun owner would do when you found the rifles.  Once you found out there was no law enforcement issue with keeping them you assessed their condition and  proceeded in a logical and reasonable manner.   Unless you have a history of donating money to anti-gun politicians your actions bear little similarity to Benchmade's.   :coffee

I was very strongly encouraged by Troopers, not local cop to destroy the rifles.  The fact that I took pics of the destroyed pieces and showed the trooper could be considered "currying favor".

What exactly is a "Fudd" ?   Please enlighten us.    :hmm

It refers to Elmer Fudd.  An unflattering description of the one gun owning hunter.  Generally implies incompetent uninformed gun owners.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: AltRight Vanguard on March 01, 2019, 02:25:29 pm
What exactly is a "Fudd" ?   Please enlighten us.    :hmm
You don't know the term, or are you asking rhetorically?

If you don't, they were the typical older gun owners who would tell us we 'don't need an AR-47 with 30 bullets in the clip to hunt deer.'  Never mind the intent of the founders, the second amendment is for hunting.  Those guys.  They were much more prevalent in decades past, but they are starting to die off and be less involved in the conversation.

A more modern example would be the dick who owns Dick's.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: MTK20 on March 01, 2019, 02:49:01 pm
What exactly is a "Fudd" ?   Please enlighten us.    :hmm

It's not a very nice term. It's a pejorative term used to show contempt for those gun owners who are all about 'reasonable compromises'. Much like the cartoon character Elmer Fudd, these individuals only carry a traditional gun afield during hunting season and have a habit of lambasting anyone who conceal carries or who would own a military style semi auto. For CHL they typically call them "paranoid" and for the military weapons, they say something along the lines of their owners having a "Rambo mindset".

Basically, guns that venture into modernism or self preservation are "bad". Guns are only for putting meat on the table.

I've met a few of them and, while not becoming, I take as dim of a view of them as they do of most modern gun owners. Old southern blue dog democrats come to mind and they are always ready to throw the AR-15 owner under the bus when a new gun control law is mentioned to be in the works.

Hope that clarifies my stance.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on March 01, 2019, 02:52:55 pm
Agreed.

Agreed.

I own one Benchmade knife that I purchased.  I like the design, not an in-house design, but the execution is blah and not worth the price.  I barely look at any of their products and am not missing anything.  I am many times more likely to find a knife that fits my needs, budget, and eye elsewhere.  My money will go elsewhere

Mine too.
I was very strongly encouraged by Troopers, not local cop to destroy the rifles.  The fact that I took pics of the destroyed pieces and showed the trooper could be considered "currying favor".
I respectfully disagree.  Your situation was completely different than Benchmade's as you had nothing to gain from following the troopers' recommendations - unless there's more to the story than you have already said.  Following the recommendation ( at least partially ) and having evidence of it is simply a common sense way to proceed under the circumstances.  Textbook case of "the reasonable man" standard.

It refers to Elmer Fudd.  An unflattering description of the one gun owning hunter.  Generally implies incompetent uninformed gun owners.
Well, I guess you could call most of my family "Fudds" then.  Generations of us had one or two guns at home that did all the jobs required of them by farm families.   Betting on those people being incompetent would have been unwise.  Uninformed was probably closer to the truth but they lived in a time and place when the current anti-gun hysteria was unthinkable.   Owning and using a gun - any gun - was no more remarkable than owning and using farming equipment.   These are the same people who, when called upon, went and joined the armed forces of their country, familiarized themselves with the weapons of war and beat the best that the rest of the world sent against them.  Then they went home, took up their farming and the raising of families again and decided to enjoy the blessings of the freedoms they had fought for. 

Perhaps they can be forgiven their unsophisticated ways and their provincial outlook.   During the heyday of the great old Warner Bothers cartoon productions Elmer Fudd became a beloved figure to many of them as they recognized elements of themselves in that character.  They had the ability to laugh at themselves because they very much had taken the measure of the world and accepted it on its own terms.  I'd love to see more of that kind of substance in today's society but I seem destined to be disappointed in that. 
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on March 01, 2019, 02:59:52 pm
Meanwhile, back at the OP,

   as George Washington once said: "It is better to offer no excuse than a bad one." 
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: LowKey on March 01, 2019, 03:34:42 pm
I'm not the most eloquent of people, so I'll put this as simply and plainly as I can-
To everyone who says, "No big deal", "It's only business", and/or "Boycotting them isn't going to stop them"....you're the problem as much if not more so than companies like Benchmade, Dicks, et al.

A portion of the money you spend with them ends up being used to fund attacks on our rights. Period.
The attitude that boycotting and spending your money elsewhere will result in insignificant revenue losses for them is a self-fulfilling prophecy because it dissuades other individuals from boycotting as well, and a consumer boycott only has teeth if it's done by a significant number of that businesses <former> customers.   

If you think boycotts are pointless and don't hurt, look at DIck's profits for the last year. 
The revenue they lost from gun owners went to someone else.
Had there been no one else , it would have been an opening in the market for someone to fill.

Vote with your money and support companies who support the same values which you have. 
Stop fattening the ones who're looking to stab you inn the back.

 
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: MTK20 on March 01, 2019, 04:21:01 pm
I'm not the most eloquent of people, so I'll put this as simply and plainly as I can-
To everyone who says, "No big deal", "It's only business", and/or "Boycotting them isn't going to stop them"....you're the problem as much if not more so than companies like Benchmade, Dicks, et al.

A portion of the money you spend with them ends up being used to fund attacks on our rights. Period.
The attitude that boycotting and spending your money elsewhere will result in insignificant revenue losses for them is a self-fulfilling prophecy because it dissuades other individuals from boycotting as well, and a consumer boycott only has teeth if it's done by a significant number of that businesses <former> customers.   

If you think boycotts are pointless and don't hurt, look at DIck's profits for the last year. 
The revenue they lost from gun owners went to someone else.
Had there been no one else , it would have been an opening in the market for someone to full.

Vote with your money and support companies who support the same values which you have. 
Stop fattening the ones who're looking to stab you inn the back.

This seems like a fair appraisal to me  :shrug .
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: AltRight Vanguard on March 01, 2019, 06:04:17 pm
I'm not the most eloquent of people, so I'll put this as simply and plainly as I can-
To everyone who says, "No big deal", "It's only business", and/or "Boycotting them isn't going to stop them"....you're the problem as much if not more so than companies like Benchmade, Dicks, et al.
I take exception to this.  I am the one who is saying 'no big deal' on Benchmade, yet I am also one who instantly boycotted Dicks the first time they pulled this, and I have never looked back.  There is a difference, I truly believe, between the two.  Dicks blatantly asks and lobbies for an erosion of our rights.  Benchmade acted the good citizen and helped the local PD carry out their duties.  Maybe it was misguided, but I do not see ill intent.

And bud?  I am not the problem here.  Those who call for ideological purity and social lynchings for minor offenses are the problem.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: LowKey on March 01, 2019, 08:36:17 pm
I take exception to this.  I am the one who is saying 'no big deal' on Benchmade, yet I am also one who instantly boycotted Dicks the first time they pulled this, and I have never looked back.  There is a difference, I truly believe, between the two.  Dicks blatantly asks and lobbies for an erosion of our rights.  Benchmade acted the good citizen and helped the local PD carry out their duties.  Maybe it was misguided, but I do not see ill intent.

And bud?  I am not the problem here.  Those who call for ideological purity and social lynchings for minor offenses are the problem.
I don't care about "ideological purity".  I'm talking about not giving nourishment to any organization or business which in turn chooses to feed the anti-2A movement, or any other anti-Constitutional cause.   

You can choose to feed them or not feed them, but if you choose to feed them then you'd be rather foolish to later complain about anti-2A activism you knowingly, if indirectly, funded.   

Anyone remember the Christian Bakery vs Gay Wedding Cake debacle? 
If the initial decision had sided with the bakery (which it should have), wouldn't it have been foolish for members of the LBGTQXYZBBQ community to buy their baked goods from the Christian Bakery, thus supporting it,  when there were dozens of other bakeries which had no such objection?

You try to avoid pumping money into your opponents coffers, directly or indirectly.   
If you run a shop and post a sign promoting gun control, I take my business elsewhere.
Otherwise I'm feeding a dog that's biting me.



Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: AltRight Vanguard on March 01, 2019, 09:14:55 pm
Otherwise I'm feeding a dog that's biting me.
I agree with the entirety of your post, save this line.

My objection is: Are they really 'biting us?'  I say no.  If you think they are, then you and Mr. Coelacanth can stay away from their products.  As I said above, I have not gone into a Dick's since the First time they pulled their crap, back in 2013.  I have a memory, and I don't forget easily... IF I feel that I have been wronged.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: MTK20 on March 01, 2019, 09:15:54 pm
Well, I guess you could call most of my family "Fudds" then.

Reading through this again. I feel we got off into the weeds here. It's not just someone who owns one gun.

As I mentioned above, it is the antigun, gun owner. Unless your family supported an AWB, I doubt they were Fudds.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on March 01, 2019, 09:53:52 pm
Fair enough.  I am just a bit sensitive to the labels we tend to put on one another as people who are ostensibly on the same side of an issue like our second amendment freedoms.  Being a Fudd, from a long line of Fudds gives me, perhaps, a little more insight into that culture and that type of individual than those who use the term without having any personal connection to them.   Its a lot easier to buy into an idea or a meme and use the popular label than it is to actually understand the person we applied the label to. 

As for Benchmade Knives, I decided long ago that their products weren't something I was interested in.  Too many dollars and too much hype for what was actually being delivered when the edge met the work to be done.  Nothing to do with their politics.  I was blissfully unaware of that situation until this week.  It simply stands as one more reason to avoid Benchmade IMO.   I started this thread as a public service announcement for my friends here at WTA.  Proceed as you see fit - with my blessing.   :coffee
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: Kaso on March 01, 2019, 10:16:47 pm
Wow, glad to see WTA getting some spring back into its step.  ;)
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: Kaso on March 01, 2019, 10:27:10 pm
Being a Fudd, from a long line of Fudds gives me, perhaps, a little more insight into that culture and that type of individual than those who use the term without having any personal connection to them.
You are not a Fudd by any definition of the term.  You like your wheel guns and your bolt guns, but that doesn't make a Fudd.  Fudds do not embrace tradition so much as look down at and judge those who embrace modernity.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: MTK20 on March 01, 2019, 10:37:26 pm
You are not a Fudd by any definition of the term.  You like your wheel guns and your bolt guns, but that doesn't make a Fudd.  Fudds do not embrace tradition so much as look down at and judge those who embrace modernity.

I agree (hot damn, have we messed up when I'm agreeing with Kaso  :neener. Btw nice to see you again!  :cool).

Coelacanth conceal carries and is knowledgeable of even the boutique loads used in the AR platform. He is no Fudd, nor even an adherent to old Bill Ruger doctrine. I just don't see it  :shrug .
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on March 01, 2019, 10:42:25 pm
I certainly appreciate the recognition of my finer points but I definitely remember when the only guns in the household consisted of a 16 gauge side by side shotgun and a single shot .22 rimfire rifle.  Sport shooting was for folks who could afford the extra ammunition.  All we did was hunt and take care of pests and predators.  Definitely on the Fuddly side of the scale at that point.   

Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: LowKey on March 01, 2019, 11:02:46 pm
I certainly appreciate the recognition of my finer points but I definitely remember when the only guns in the household consisted of a 16 gauge side by side shotgun and a single shot .22 rimfire rifle.  Sport shooting was for folks who could afford the extra ammunition.  All we did was hunt and take care of pests and predators.  Definitely on the Fuddly side of the scale at that point.
Fudd has less to do with hunting and almost everything to do with having the mindset that the only legitimate reason to own a firearm is hunting and shooting clays; and that people who own black rifles, "hi-capacity" magazines,  practice concealed carry, and oppose gun control and gun registration are extremist gun-nuts.     The "Fudds" are those who have the attitude that as long as TPTB leave their deer rifle and bird gun , any other form of gun restriction or banning is noting that they object to in the least.


Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on March 01, 2019, 11:21:33 pm
By that definition I am the diametric opposite of a Fudd.  I think the second amendment is crystal clear.  Should one need any further guidance to the mindset of those who penned it, look no further than the inclusion of Letters of Marque and Reprisal in the Constitution.  They authorized private owners of the deadliest military technology of the age to engage in military operations on behalf of the government that issued them. 

There was no wailing and hand wringing about those weapons being in private hands.  It was universally understood that those things were the birthright of every American.   :coffee
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: MTK20 on March 01, 2019, 11:37:46 pm
Fudd has less to do with hunting and almost everything to do with having the mindset that the only legitimate reason to own a firearm is hunting and shooting clays; and that people who own black rifles, "hi-capacity" magazines,  practice concealed carry, and oppose gun control and gun registration are extremist gun-nuts.     The "Fudds" are those who have the attitude that as long as TPTB leave their deer rifle and bird gun , any other form of gun restriction or banning is nothing that they object to in the least.

^This. Perfect summary  :thumbup1 .

Being a 'one gun' man isn't the be all end all definition. Not that long ago, my poor self only had one gun. Raptor is in that same boat as well.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: Raptor on March 02, 2019, 07:30:09 am
^This. Perfect summary  :thumbup1 .

Being a 'one gun' man isn't the be all end all definition. Not that long ago, my poor self only had one gun. Raptor is in that same boat as well.

Raptor used to be in the same boat: now Raptor has two "military style hand guns" and an "Evil Black Rifle," any one of which would make a genuine FUDD have a meltdown at the mere sight of it.  ;)

LowKey's definition of a FUDD is spot-on. It's not someone who owns one gun (I've met FUDDs with safes full of wood & steel hunting rifles & sporting shotguns), its one of those a______s who thinks the Second Amendment only applies to his deer rifles and to hell with you, you "terrorist!"

Back on-topic, I can't speak for Benchmade and don't know what was going through their heads, but having grown up in a relatively super-liberal area, I certainly understand the "going with the flow" mindset. Nor do I think that donating to anti-gun politicians is necessarily a bad thing, especially when you're stuck in a solidly anti-2A area where a genuine pro-gun candidate has about a snowball's chance in hell of getting elected. It never hurts to have politicians "owing you a favor," so to speak, when a controversial vote might come up.

As for me, I already own two Benchmades. I'll continue carrying & using them, because Benchmade already got paid for them so what's the point of getting rid of or destroying them? That said, I'm not planning on buying any new ones, nor will they be my sole recommendation when someone asks about knives anymore.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: LowKey on March 02, 2019, 01:52:03 pm
Here's my rationale for feeling so strongly about not doing business with companies who give even a crumb of support to the anti-gun crowd. 

The anti-gunners, and the progressive set in general, are masters at using incrementalism and masters at infiltrating and taking over organizations.  Government bureaucracies, academia,media, and corporate structures.  You have to hand it to them, they are manipulators par excellence.
The only chance of stopping them is to call them out on their BS at every opportunity and to deny them any resource over which we exert control, because everything we give them ends up being turned against us. 
Trying to "work together", "get along", "compromise", and so on and so forth only result in us getting the shaft.  If the struggle to preserve our rights was a football game with the 2A as the football, we've played the part of Charlie Brown to their Lucy for far too long.
If it means we need to "polarize" society to the extent that it's plainly visible in our daily lives where the lines are drawn, so be it.  Time for people to decide which camp they want to be in, and let each side be able to see the true size of the other. Perhaps that will give them pause.   



You don't sell fissionable materials to someone who's likely to use them to build bombs to drop on you*, and you don't give hard currency for oil to people who are going to fund terrorist attacks against you*.  So why on Earth would you buy a widget from someone who's going to fund your oppression?

If this is a culture war then business with them or those who provide any support to them equates to trading with the enemy, not because it violates "ideological purity" but because it materially aids them.  There's a reason there has always been a rather harsh penalty for "providing aid and support to the enemy".   For businesses that do so it should be massive loss of revenue and (one can hope) eventual bankruptcy and closure of the company., leaving a market opening for someone else who isn't going to stab their own customer base in the back.   

Okay, rant off. ;)


* Unless, of course, you don't give a rat's ass about your country.

Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: AltRight Vanguard on March 02, 2019, 06:39:07 pm
So am I to understand that your problem with them lies primarily with the donations, and less with the act of cutting up guns?
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: LowKey on March 02, 2019, 06:59:25 pm
So am I to understand that your problem with them lies primarily with the donations, and less with the act of cutting up guns?
Yes, as long as the guns were used in crimes by the legal owners or they were guns used in crimes where the legal owners could not be identified and contacted.   Firearms are tools, not religious relics.   
Now if the guns were from "Red Flag" confiscations I'd have a problem.
Likewise if they were from "buy back" programs, but to a lessor extent as my objection there isn't the destruction of the firearm in that case so much as it's a waste of tax dollars/public property.  After all the legal owner of a firearm has the right to do with it as they choose which includes melting it into slag or cutting it into tiny pieces, and if the municipality bought it then the municipality has become the legal owner of said firearm but their destroying it is no less a waste of public monies than buying (for example) a school bus which they then promptly crush into scrap.

Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on March 05, 2019, 09:43:48 pm
Latest update and an interview with a Benchmade spokesman on Tom Gresham's radio show:    :facepalm

https://www.alloutdoor.com/2019/03/04/benchmade-attempts-damage-control-gun-talk-radio/


I think the old adage applies here - you know - the one about when you find yourself at the bottom of a hole, put the shovel down and stop digging.    :coffee

Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: booksmart on March 06, 2019, 09:40:53 am
I agree (hot damn, have we messed up when I'm agreeing with Kaso  :neener. Btw nice to see you again!  :cool).

No, we've messed something up when I agree with Kaso...  which does happen from time to time.  :panic  :rotfl
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: Kaso on March 06, 2019, 10:00:48 am
No, we've messed something up when I agree with Kaso...  which does happen from time to time.  :panic  :rotfl
Something about a broken clock, and you being right twice a day...  :coffee
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: Kaso on March 06, 2019, 10:04:55 am
For businesses that do so it should be massive loss of revenue and (one can hope) eventual bankruptcy and closure of the company, leaving a market opening for someone else who isn't going to stab their own customer base in the back. 
Yes, we all saw how much of a beating Springfield and DS Arms took, when their lobbying firm misstepped.  Remember that fun line of argument we had, when you first joined, where you hoped it would force those two out of business?  People are stupid, and they will forget this just as fast.   :shrug
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: AltRight Vanguard on March 06, 2019, 12:10:02 pm
If you want to bring up Springfield, the difference here is that Benchmade has not really stabbed anyone in the back.  Springfield did.  Springfield, like Dicks is on my list of no-go brands.  Whether they notice or not, my intent is there.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: MTK20 on March 06, 2019, 12:54:23 pm
If you want to bring up Springfield, the difference here is that Benchmade has not really stabbed anyone in the back.  Springfield did.  Springfield, like Dicks is on my list of no-go brands.  Whether they notice or not, my intent is there.

Sometimes glaring and thinking angry thoughts can be enough. Not always, but sometimes  :cool .
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: AltRight Vanguard on March 06, 2019, 01:12:30 pm
Sometimes glaring and thinking angry thoughts can be enough. Not always, but sometimes  :cool .
Witholding my money is much more effective, I would think.  And it seems that Dick's bottom line agrees. 

When I feel that an organization is threatening my rights, I certainly do cut them off financially.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: ksuguy on March 06, 2019, 01:42:43 pm
Yes, we all saw how much of a beating Springfield and DS Arms took, when their lobbying firm misstepped. 

That was actually Rock River Arms, not DSA.   I'm still looking for another place to get a good .458 Socom upper instead of buying one from them
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: LowKey on March 06, 2019, 01:57:09 pm
Yes, we all saw how much of a beating Springfield and DS Arms took, when their lobbying firm misstepped.  Remember that fun line of argument we had, when you first joined, where you hoped it would force those two out of business?  People are stupid, and they will forget this just as fast.   :shrug
Probably, but almost assuredly when there are so many on the internet (the modern town square/forum) who tell people not to bother.
If boycotting was supported, or even urged then it would have more bite.


**Edited to add**

It seems the left has the tactic down pretty well and seem to be able to influence quite a few businesses.  Would that we were able to do so as well as they to counter to their ideological influence,  but we seem to be too cool for school and wont learn from watching others. 
They're willing to brawl, and we seem to  be stuck following Marquis of Queensbury Rules......when people in our crowd aren't telling us there's no point in fighting back anyways.  :coffee
I
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: ksuguy on March 06, 2019, 11:35:01 pm
Unfortunately, this sort of crap has begun to worm its way into a lot of high level corporate offices.  I don't think this is necessarily because corporate executives necessarily follow the same ideology.  I think many of them are just sociopaths that see it as yet another tool that can be used for their personal benefit.  Also, many of them probably don't like the idea of all the "little people" being armed, much like the old feudal nobility.   
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: MTK20 on March 06, 2019, 11:46:38 pm
Unfortunately, this sort of crap has begun to worm its way into a lot of high level corporate offices.  I don't think this is necessarily because corporate executives necessarily follow the same ideology.  I think many of them are just sociopaths that see it as yet another tool that can be used for their personal benefit.  Also, many of them probably don't like the idea of all the "little people" being armed, much like the old feudal nobility.

 :hmm
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: LowKey on March 07, 2019, 01:38:05 pm
Unfortunately, this sort of crap has begun to worm its way into a lot of high level corporate offices.  I don't think this is necessarily because corporate executives necessarily follow the same ideology.  I think many of them are just sociopaths that see it as yet another tool that can be used for their personal benefit.  Also, many of them probably don't like the idea of all the "little people" being armed, much like the old feudal nobility.
Frankly, it doesn't matter which. 
In those cases where it's simply a pursuit of increased profits the only thing that will cause them to change course is a nosedive in profits, and can only come about if many people stop spending money on their products.  Even if that means paying a little more to someone else for an equivalent item, or foregoing purchasing it at all.   
In those cases where it is management pushing their own ideological beliefs through corporate policies the way to combat it is still causing their profits to nosedive. Eventually majority shareholders will get rid of the responsible party.   

One person refusing to buy product from an individual company isn't going to have an appreciable impact, and getting the individualistic crowd that is firearms owners to pass up cheap deals to make a political point isn't ever going to be easy. 

I don't know all the tactics we can bring to bear in the fight to preserve our rights,  I just know that apathy isn't one of them. :shrug
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: ksuguy on March 07, 2019, 02:42:05 pm
I was more referring to the general issue of corporate leftism than the boycott thing specifically, but I do agree that we should pay attention and plan our purchases accordingly.

Especially when the questionable company is in the gun business or other closely related industries.   For a company like Benchmade, Dick's, or S&W during the Clinton years, boycotts can be effective.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: Kaso on March 08, 2019, 09:59:27 am
Probably, but almost assuredly when there are so many on the internet (the modern town square/forum) who tell people not to bother.
If boycotting was supported, or even urged then it would have more bite.
You mistake urging caution for 'telling people not to bother.'  Maybe urging just a bit of wisdom and restraint before breaking out the tar and feathers.  Just maybe.

It seems the left has the tactic down pretty well and seem to be able to influence quite a few businesses.  Would that we were able to do so as well as they to counter to their ideological influence,  but we seem to be too cool for school and won't learn from watching others. 
You are right, the left does have this tactic down pretty well.  So well, in fact, that they will apply it not just to those they are in opposition to, but to those as well who have stepped out of line in the most insignificant of ways.  'Ideological purity,' was mentioned above, and that is one thing, but their behavior borders on that of witch hunts.  Do you really want that for the conservative side?  Ready to cast someone out because they befriended a Lefty, and reported that 'they aren't all so bad?'  Because that has happened on the other side.

What about 'MeToo?'  That is another example of the left taking this tactic too far.  Sure, SOME of those guys need hung in the town square, but Many, Many innocent guys are being robbed of their lives, careers, and worst, their reputations.  All against what amounts to hearsay evidence, that is impossible to disprove 10, 20, 40 years later.  And I realize this is not what you are calling for, but it is the natural extension of zero tolerance for questionable behavior.


They're willing to brawl, and we seem to  be stuck following Marquis of Queensbury Rules......when people in our crowd aren't telling us there's no point in fighting back anyways.  :coffee
If you want to salvage what is left of our republic, then no, this is not the way to fight the other side.  Digging your own trenches deeper will do nothing but ensure a further breakdown of trust.  By all means, clamp down on companies like Dicks, who have made their positions on the other side clear, and others that take a crystal clear stance against our rights.  Squeeze them dry.  But give a measure of forgiveness to companies that either didn't think of the consequences, or maybe tried to act in good faith.  SA, RRA, come to mind.  I think Benchmade is actually in between.  They did nothing wrong, but it brought to light their leftist leanings anyway.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: MTK20 on March 08, 2019, 03:35:28 pm
https://youtu.be/_SME34Iezac

Shots fired by coldsteel knives.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: LowKey on March 08, 2019, 08:22:42 pm
https://youtu.be/_SME34Iezac

Shots fired by coldsteel knives.
Those are rounds on target.
Lets hope Cold Steel has no skeletons in the closet and is willing to stand their ground.
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: LowKey on March 08, 2019, 08:48:58 pm
You mistake urging caution for 'telling people not to bother.'  Maybe urging just a bit of wisdom and restraint before breaking out the tar and feathers.  Just maybe.
Caution is good.
Waiting for the proverbial results of a congressional investigation...not so much.
Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....
Not as if we're talking about criminal proceedings here, it's the <well known to be mercurial> court of public opinion.
You are right, the left does have this tactic down pretty well.  So well, in fact, that they will apply it not just to those they are in opposition to, but to those as well who have stepped out of line in the most insignificant of ways.  'Ideological purity,' was mentioned above, and that is one thing, but their behavior borders on that of witch hunts.  Do you really want that for the conservative side?  Ready to cast someone out because they befriended a Lefty, and reported that 'they aren't all so bad?'  Because that has happened on the other side.
Just because one can learn a technique from an opponent doesn't mean one has to exercise it in the same manner.
What we learned from Wernher Von Braun was used to put men on the moon, not rockets on London.

What about 'MeToo?'  That is another example of the left taking this tactic too far.  Sure, SOME of those guys need hung in the town square, but Many, Many innocent guys are being robbed of their lives, careers, and worst, their reputations.  All against what amounts to hearsay evidence, that is impossible to disprove 10, 20, 40 years later.  And I realize this is not what you are calling for, but it is the natural extension of zero tolerance for questionable behavior.
You're correct, that's not what I'm suggesting.
"We" have better sense. Else-wise we'd be the loose cannons that the left decries us to be with our firearms. 
 
If you want to salvage what is left of our republic, then no, this is not the way to fight the other side.  Digging your own trenches deeper will do nothing but ensure a further breakdown of trust.
Trust? What trust?
There is no trust left.
Hundreds of thousands of iterations of the "Lucy-football-Charlie Brown" encounter which have played out have demonstrated this.
Believing otherwise is wishful thinking.

 
By all means, clamp down on companies like Dicks, who have made their positions on the other side clear, and others that take a crystal clear stance against our rights.  Squeeze them dry.  But give a measure of forgiveness to companies that either didn't think of the consequences, or maybe tried to act in good faith.  SA, RRA, come to mind.  I think Benchmade is actually in between.  They did nothing wrong, but it brought to light their leftist leanings anyway.
I'm not suggesting we penalize for errors made in good faith, but the argument of "it was best for our bottom line" should hold no water.   Dealing with the Devil is dealing with the Devil, no matter how much profit you stand to make. 
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: MTK20 on March 08, 2019, 09:12:31 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Interesting points on both sides, you two  :cool .
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on March 08, 2019, 09:46:53 pm
For better or worse, the aggressor sets the terms of any engagement.   Gun owners and conservatives have been largely reactionary - and thus on the receiving end of this struggle for many years.  They can hardly be faulted for taking some initiative at this late date. 
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: LowKey on March 08, 2019, 11:53:25 pm
For the record, while I may not agree with Kaso across the board; if he shows up at my door pursued by a mob of angry villagers with pitchforks and torches in hand I'd give him shelter.
Might have some heated debates on various subjects, but no one would be getting to him without going through me and mine.
 
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: MTK20 on March 09, 2019, 12:10:04 am
For the record, while I may not agree with Kaso across the board; if he shows up at my door pursued by a mob of angry villagers with pitchforks and torches in hand I'd give him shelter.
Might have some heated debates on various subjects, but no one would be getting to him without going through me and mine.
 

Well of course. WTA is small and very much like family. We don't have to like each other, we just have to care about one another  ;) .
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: coelacanth on March 13, 2019, 05:55:40 pm
Apparently I'm not the only one who is thinking what I'm thinking:

www.tarzanajoe.com/rules-of-engagement/
Title: Re: Benchmade's dirty diaper . . .
Post by: LowKey on March 13, 2019, 10:43:30 pm
Apparently I'm not the only one who is thinking what I'm thinking:

www.tarzanajoe.com/rules-of-engagement/
Sometimes you have to be willing to just go all out and trust that those who know you understand that you're just trying to do what's right.