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Author Topic: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO  (Read 1097 times)

MTK20

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? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
« on: April 01, 2017, 12:50:52 PM »






I think one of the scariest outcomes is the possibility to be kidnapped. Yes, the criminal element can kill or rob you where you stand, but it seems to me that the most heinous crimes I have studied are committed when bad people take their victim to a private location where they have time, power, and control over those they intend to harm.

So while we all know to avoid stupid places, stupid people, and at stupid times. Do our local LEO's on the forum have any tips or tricks into the MO of kidnappers? How they think, how they may act, and most importantly how to stop them? Are there self defense classes or ways to study this behaviour?

I'm sure there has to be. There are some basic patterns that robbers, murderers, and sexual predators follow, so it would only make sense that kidnappers are the same way.

Please post any experiences you have had or articles on the subject.

Also case study of previous cases is always welcome, as it feeds my interest and knowledge in criminology.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
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    MTK20

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #1 on: April 01, 2017, 01:35:28 PM »
    With a brief internet search, I found this study.

    http://www.bocsar.nsw.gov.au/Documents/CJB/cjb94.pdf

    It's not of cases in the U.S.A, but I assume motives are pretty much the same world wide.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Langenator

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #2 on: April 01, 2017, 02:05:36 PM »
    Motives in the US tend to be quite different than in other parts of the world.  Kidnapping for ransom is a significant business for criminal gangs and mob types in many parts of the world.  Not so much in the US, because it tends to bring the FBI down on the perps in a hurry.
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    Chief45

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #3 on: April 01, 2017, 03:19:15 PM »
    Correct, and say what you will about the FBI, they have a pretty good record of finding kidnappers.   Not so great a record in safe recovery, but they will find the suspects.  If you travel outside the US, you are automatically at risk as a Rich Norte, if you stray from safe zones or guarded, guided groups.

    Kidnapping in the US generally falls into 2 broad categories.

    Kidnapping of a minor child by an estranged parent, and usually attempting to flee to far distant parts.  More property titled as Interference with parental custody,  Those, generally, do not involve danger of death or physical harm to the child by the kidnapping parent.  a few cases have, but, generally not.

    Kidnapping for sexual gratification. 
    and that falls into 2 categories as well.

    Instant gratification, with the death of the victim occurring within a short time frame, hours to a few days.  If the, usually, minor child, female, age 5 to 12, is not found within a few hours to perhaps 48 hours, then we figure it is a murder and sexual assault investigation. That's the one that parents of young girls fear the most, if they have even thought about it.

    Kidnapping with the willing assistance, or non-resistance, of the "victim".
    Tenn. is working one that appears to be along these lines right now.  suspect and victim spotted in Oklahoma.  she's like 15 and he's 50. I have questions about the resistance of a 15 year old girl, traveling cross country, that she can't get away, or draw attention to herself, if she intends to actively resist.

    so, broad sweep, generalizations.  not hard and fast, carved in stone. 



     
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    MTK20

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #4 on: April 01, 2017, 03:39:48 PM »
    Thanks Chief,

    I suppose that awareness is always our best defense against these or any other types of crimes.  But that is also part of my question. What situations do kidnappers look for to find potential victims, and how can we as responsibly armed citizens best avoid these types of situations? Keeping in mind that the fight you never get into is the one you always win.

    One detail that I would like to add, just to round out our demographic. While I haven't studied kidnapping crimes so much, I have studied sexual assault cases. While we typically think of just women as being victims of sexually based crimes, I have seen that there is a growing incidence of male victims. An incident that is becoming more common, is at gay bars they (typically a group of 2 or 3 perpetrators) will spike a mans drink and then transport them to a second location where they commit sexual crimes (gang rape) or worse if they are sadistic enough. I wish I knew the specific study off the top of my head so I could share it here, but I believe that would be a thread drift. If one would like nightmare fuel, remember that while the setting may most commonly be at gay bars, predators are not fixed to one location.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    sarge712

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #5 on: April 01, 2017, 11:23:52 PM »
    Motives in the US tend to be quite different than in other parts of the world.  Kidnapping for ransom is a significant business for criminal gangs and mob types in many parts of the world.  Not so much in the US, because it tends to bring the FBI down on the perps in a hurry.

    Yes although its picking up in the southwest US by obvious persons.
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    ZeroTA

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #6 on: April 01, 2017, 11:31:37 PM »
    Motives in the US tend to be quite different than in other parts of the world.  Kidnapping for ransom is a significant business for criminal gangs and mob types in many parts of the world.  Not so much in the US, because it tends to bring the FBI down on the perps in a hurry.

    Yes, in the US motives are usually far more devious than mere money.

    So I've told my wife (she's got the common sense not to anyway) and son and others, DO NOT get in their vehicle. Don't trade one crime scene for another. Once you've surrendered your freedom and mobility, they now call all the shots and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Do you really want to surrender full control of the situation? I thought not.
    I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't.

    sarge712

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #7 on: April 01, 2017, 11:34:26 PM »
    Two things I teach in my Women's/Teen safety classes:

    1) to blatantly rip off Col. Cooper, "Alertness is Tactic #1" Its hard to get anything over on you if you are alert and they can't sneak into attack range.

    2) Fight like a maniac at the initial abduction scene even if they have a weapon. Scream, honk, flee, fight, fluff them up. Do anything you can to dissuade them because horrific things await you at the secondary crime scene that they plan to take you to. They will have all the time in the world and every tool at their disposal to rape, torture and slowly kill you. I tell each student that any parent would rather their child died fighting at the scene than be taken away to a horrible end and they'd never know what happen to them. As fluffed up as that sounds, I'd much rather my kid go down swinging in the mall parking lot than duct taped to a bed then thrown away in the dark woods when they're done with you.
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
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    MTK20

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #8 on: April 02, 2017, 12:08:30 AM »
    I think that we can all agree that while we may not have the numbers or overwhelming force on our side, we still have choice. Yes, we may not have the choice to live or die, but we can choose where we die and I'd rather be shot in broad day in a parking lot then end up like something out of the Hi-Fi murders in the 70's.

    Sarge, I believe it was your brother who posted something here a few years ago about a co-worker of his (I think he said he was a fairly new LEO) who gave compliance to a criminal and ended up meeting a pretty horrible fate. It's too late right now for me to comb through the forum and it was quite a while ago, but I remember SLM saying something along the lines of his department listened/watched the dash cam footage and it solidifed it in his mind to always go down fighting, that he wouldn't plead or beg with a criminal for his life.

    I am 90% sure it was SLM, but it might've been one of our other LEO's here who posted it.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    sarge712

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #9 on: April 02, 2017, 12:34:16 AM »
    I think that we can all agree that while we may not have the numbers or overwhelming force on our side, we still have choice. Yes, we may not have the choice to live or die, but we can choose where we die and I'd rather be shot in broad day in a parking lot then end up like something out of the Hi-Fi murders in the 70's.

    Sarge, I believe it was your brother who posted something here a few years ago about a co-worker of his (I think he said he was a fairly new LEO) who gave compliance to a criminal and ended up meeting a pretty horrible fate. It's too late right now for me to comb through the forum and it was quite a while ago, but I remember SLM saying something along the lines of his department listened/watched the dash cam footage and it solidifed it in his mind to always go down fighting, that he wouldn't plead or beg with a criminal for his life.

    I am 90% sure it was SLM, but it might've been one of our other LEO's here who posted it.

    It was me.

    Trooper Shawn Blanton surrendered his weapon at gunpoint on June 17, 2008.

    I loved him. I watched him grow up. His dad is one of my dearest friends. He was the first member of the Eastern Band of Cherokee to become a NC state trooper. That said, and I'm Monday morning the hell out of this and always have, he should have tried to draw and shoot that bastard Eduardo Wong despite Wong having the drop on him. He was shot anyway even after complying with Wong's demands to disarm. Shawn begged for his life. I've  watched the dash cam hundreds of times. I will be double damned if I will ever beg and I may be shot to rags, but I will go down swinging for the fences. 

    Shawn's death wasnt in vain. It spawned a renaissance in officers safety training in our state especially a course designed and taught by NC trooper Kirk Hensley entitled "Surviving the First Three Seconds."

    http://www.odmp.org/officer/19429-trooper-david-shawn-blanton-jr
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    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
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    MTK20

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #10 on: April 02, 2017, 09:58:55 AM »
    Thanks for posting that again Sarge. I have a question from the obituary that you posted. Did Trooper Blanton have 2 children and one passed or he had only one child that passed at 4 months of age?

    Either way, the whole thing is tragic. I'm surprised the crim didn't get the death penalty.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #11 on: April 02, 2017, 10:49:56 AM »
    Thanks for posting that again Sarge. I have a question from the obituary that you posted. Did Trooper Blanton have 2 children and one passed or he had only one child that passed at 4 months of age?

    Either way, the whole thing is tragic. I'm surprised the crim didn't get the death penalty.
    From that one article, I think he had one that died at four months old... About four months after his father was killed.  That would really suck to be the wife/mother.
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    sarge712

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #12 on: April 02, 2017, 12:25:07 PM »
    Thanks for posting that again Sarge. I have a question from the obituary that you posted. Did Trooper Blanton have 2 children and one passed or he had only one child that passed at 4 months of age?

    Either way, the whole thing is tragic. I'm surprised the crim didn't get the death penalty.

    He had one child who was born premature with birth defects. Yes, it messed up the wife. And the rest of us.

    Wong would have gotten the death penalty if they had left it in the county it occurred in. However, the defense won a change of venue because they convinced a bleeding heart judge there would be a great hardship finding an untainted jury in that rural county. As a result the trial was moved to Hickory, NC, and the more urban, liberal jurors refused to consider the death penalty. Wong is a rock star now among the prison population because he murdered a state trooper.
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    Grant

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #13 on: April 02, 2017, 12:37:05 PM »
      I've been told this sounds morbid (but it's true), but another thing is:

    If you get killed resisting somewhere in public, at least your family has a body to bury.  Not a big question mark in their lives wondering where/when/how.

       
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    MTK20

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #14 on: April 02, 2017, 12:43:33 PM »
    He had one child who was born premature with birth defects. Yes, it messed up the wife. And the rest of us.

    Wong would have gotten the death penalty if they had left it in the county it occurred in. However, the defense won a change of venue because they convinced a bleeding heart judge there would be a great hardship finding an untainted jury in that rural county. As a result the trial was moved to Hickory, NC, and the more urban, liberal jurors refused to consider the death penalty. Wong is a rock star now among the prison population because he murdered a state trooper.

    (In bold) I can only imagine... I know it doesn't change what happened, but I'm sorry for y'alls loss.

    A tainted jury  :scrutiny. I can almost guarantee that the locals knew Trooper Blanton better and were much more knowledgeable/qualified to serve jury to the case than someone several counties over. I understand that justice must be pragmatic and I myself am often one to favour mercy over justice, but there is a line. Some people are so ruthless and so erratically chaotic that they must be removed from society. I do not think in this way as a form of revenge or out of malice towards the individual, but merely statistics. The odds of senseless violence and evil happening again from the guilty individual vs what is at stake or "gained" by allowing them to roam free. Long story short, some people are mean as hell and there's no changing 'em. This is why I'm glad that Texas burns its trash by still enforcing the death penalty. Now, whether we are sometimes overzealous in enforcing it is another subject entirely.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    sarge712

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #15 on: April 02, 2017, 01:12:44 PM »
      I've been told this sounds morbid (but it's true), but another thing is:

    If you get killed resisting somewhere in public, at least your family has a body to bury.  Not a big question mark in their lives wondering where/when/how.

       

    Exactly
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    Deathrider1579

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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #16 on: April 25, 2017, 10:50:19 AM »
    I always tell my classes (CHL, NRA defense) that they have to make a mental line that they will not allow XYZ to happen to them no matter what the cost in resisting.

    Better to be killed resisting a kidnapping than end up in the many situations that being successfully kidnapped could result in.
    "If we don't fight as radicals for our liberty, eventually we will have none."-sqlbullet
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    Re: ? to LEO's: Kidnappers MO
    « Reply #17 on: April 25, 2017, 12:18:27 PM »
      I've been told this sounds morbid (but it's true), but another thing is:

    If you get killed resisting somewhere in public, at least your family has a body to bury.  Not a big question mark in their lives wondering where/when/how.

     
    When I was still running convoys in Iraq as a civilian, we were not authorized firearms.
    Most of us carried 2-3 knives in various locations strapped to out body armor,ect.  Used to hear some people inside the wire snicker and make comments about us thinking we were Rambo, ect, and how we were fooling ourselves if we thought we'd be able to defend ourselves with knives from guys armed with AKs if we were stranded in a ditch.
    They didn't seem to get the point, the knives weren't there because we thought we could carve our way to freedom through a group of insurgents.  The knives were there so that the insurgents would have to kill us if they wanted to get within arms reach. None of us cared for the idea of staring in a propaganda video, or having our families hold onto false hope if we were held hostage.
    If you aren't going to be able to get away, better to go down on your own terms.

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