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Author Topic: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!  (Read 3346 times)

MTK20

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Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Grant

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #1 on: August 16, 2016, 01:48:40 PM »
      Very true, thought about it before.

     But that would be a TRUE last resort if you couldn't get it in gear and shove/push your way out.

       
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

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    MTK20

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #3 on: August 16, 2016, 03:02:26 PM »
    Have I ever mentioned how much I love a thread that starts with a link, but no excerpt or description? :scrutiny

    Aw, shoot. I forgot  :shrug. I normally try to avoid this.

    Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt, the one time I forget to do so  ;)  :neener.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    GeorgeHill

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #4 on: August 16, 2016, 03:37:49 PM »
    He is right about a bullet impacting the windshield can be deflected down - but he obviously doesn't understand the physics of WHY the bullet can be deflected down.  The bullet is not pulled down.  That's kinda dumb.  Glass doesn't pull the projectile.  It's the mass of the material above the projectile deflecting it downward through the path of least resistance, which is the shattered material below it.  This is physics.  Not magic.
    Also.  Not all bullets will be deflected downwards.   Some can go straight through like there was nothing there. That all depends on bullet construction and momentum, and the luck of how the glass reacts to the impact. (Chaos Mathematics here)
    Also: His first sentence.  "Today we're going to talk about the rules..."
    Fail. 
    There are no Rules in a fight.  None.  There are Laws about the use of force.  But once the criteria for justification of the use of force is met, then there are no rules.  None.  Well, just one.  Win It. 
    The first option if you can't drive away... Is can you use your vehicle as a weapon?  Can you smash your way out? 
    The only reason to abandon the vehicle - is the if the vehicle is immobilized.  Either Physically, by being blocked and can't push out, or being stuck.  Or mechanically disabled.  If you have to drive on 4 flats, drive on 4 flats.  If you have to run a threat down, run him down.   Bailing out is the last option. 



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    MTK20

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #5 on: August 16, 2016, 03:48:56 PM »
    He is right about a bullet impacting the windshield can be deflected down - but he obviously doesn't understand the physics of WHY the bullet can be deflected down.  The bullet is not pulled down.  That's kinda dumb.  Glass doesn't pull the projectile.  It's the mass of the material above the projectile deflecting it downward through the path of least resistance, which is the shattered material below it.  This is physics.  Not magic.
    Also.  Not all bullets will be deflected downwards.   Some can go straight through like there was nothing there. That all depends on bullet construction and momentum, and the luck of how the glass reacts to the impact. (Chaos Mathematics here)
    Also: His first sentence.  "Today we're going to talk about the rules..."
    Fail. 
    There are no Rules in a fight.  None.  There are Laws about the use of force.  But once the criteria for justification of the use of force is met, then there are no rules.  None.  Well, just one.  Win It. 
    The first option if you can't drive away... Is can you use your vehicle as a weapon?  Can you smash your way out? 
    The only reason to abandon the vehicle - is the if the vehicle is immobilized.  Either Physically, by being blocked and can't push out, or being stuck.  Or mechanically disabled.  If you have to drive on 4 flats, drive on 4 flats.  If you have to run a threat down, run him down.   Bailing out is the last option.

    Agreed on all accounts, George. Even Massad Ayoob said that as far as self defense use of force is concerned, no handgun cartridge can match the feet per square inch energy produced by ramming
    someone with a vehicle. Although I would rather escape than harm someone, obviously.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #6 on: August 16, 2016, 05:14:55 PM »
    I'm only bailing out of the car if it is completely boxed in or otherwise immobile. 
    Arizona

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #7 on: August 16, 2016, 05:58:38 PM »
    I'm only bailing out of the car if it is completely boxed in or otherwise immobile. 

    This. 

    Get out of the kill zone.  If it's a deliberate ambush they want you stopped there for a reason.
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    Grant

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #8 on: August 16, 2016, 07:16:26 PM »
      I'm going to say, that instances where bailing out may be necessary is:
     
      Dropped car keys, either outside, or cannot find them in a panicked mode.

      Intentional blocking, with no way to rock it back and forth out.

      I was thinking the instance was more of someone being surprised just as they get in their vehicle, without having started it yet.

     
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    sarge712

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #9 on: August 16, 2016, 07:31:24 PM »
    The only reason to abandon the vehicle - is the if the vehicle is immobilized.  Either Physically, by being blocked and can't push out, or being stuck.  Or mechanically disabled.  If you have to drive on 4 flats, drive on 4 flats.  If you have to run a threat down, run him down.   Bailing out is the last option. 

    Exactly what we teach in vehicle ambush response to our officers.
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    freeman1685

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #10 on: August 17, 2016, 05:21:47 PM »
    This would be where a cushion of space, provided by the five second rule, would come in handy.  Keeping five seconds behind the vehicle in front of you, has a tactical advantage, as well as a means of collision avoidance.

    Watching brake lights two or three cars in front also gives an early warning.  I've also been known to brake check someone following too close.

    Another rule of thumb, while stopped at a light, if you can't see the bottom of the tires of the vehicle in front of you over the hood of your car, where they contact the road, you are too close. That amount of space doesn't sound like much, but if you are rear ended, it'll keep you from being shoved into the car in front, in most cases. It also provides enough space to pull around, should the car in front suddenly become disabled, or the situation becomes hostile.

    Keeping your distance from other vehicles on the road, is more than a safety issue.

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #11 on: August 17, 2016, 10:50:53 PM »
    The top of my hood is about 5.75' off the ground.  I often can't see the trunk of the car in front of me, let alone the tires.

    On the other hand, I have a better chance than most of making it OVER the car in front of me ;)

    Utah

    MTK20

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #12 on: August 17, 2016, 11:05:33 PM »
    The top of my hood is about 5.75' off the ground.  I often can't see the trunk of the car in front of me, let alone the tires.

    On the other hand, I have a better chance than most of making it OVER the car in front of me ;)



    Easy fix, trade that thing in and get a car or something practical  :neener.

    I've developed quite the aversion to trucks. Where I live, everyone and their dog has a Ford F5quintillion and a pipe so loud on it, it's worshipped by Harley Davidson motorcycles who wish that in their two wheeled after life, they too can reach a decibel level that unnecessarily high. I can always tell the work trucks from the show trucks. Most times the farm trucks have an appropriate exhaust and show honest wear. The show trucks are covered in pretty, untouched chrome, have the obscene pipe sticking out of it, and have never encountered a bump larger than crossing a railroad track.

    When the college age cowboys keep me from getting a good parking spot on campus, cos they can't back up like their older counterparts- and when they gun and rev their engines at 2am on a school night in an effort to give their liquored up minds an exhilarating thrill- one tends to have a resentment towards the things.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    freeman1685

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #13 on: August 17, 2016, 11:47:50 PM »
    The top of my hood is about 5.75' off the ground.  I often can't see the trunk of the car in front of me, let alone the tires.

    On the other hand, I have a better chance than most of making it OVER the car in front of me ;)


    Nice.  But I think you missed my point.  Stopping back far enough would make driving over the car unnecessary, even in that monster.

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    sarge712

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #14 on: August 18, 2016, 03:02:55 AM »
    ...I can always tell the work trucks from the show trucks. Most times the farm trucks have an appropriate exhaust and show honest wear. The show trucks are covered in pretty, untouched chrome, have the obscene pipe sticking out of it, and have never encountered a bump larger than crossing a railroad track.


    Don't I know it. I recently had a co-worker ask to borrow my faithful old '96 T-100 to move some furniture and appliances. "Ummm don't you have a big ass truck Jeffy?" "Yeah Sarge, but I dont want to scratch or ding it. I gotta think about re-sale and trade in value." Ooooh damn, I hit a new land speed record for a lost temper. The LT down the hall even came over to see what it was all about. Inconsiderate all-about-them pussies, I swear.

    And thats a niiiice truck but only middlin' sized for around here in Western NC. My T-100 is dwarfed by most of the redneck Godzilla trucks in this neck of the woods.
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    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #15 on: August 18, 2016, 08:28:19 AM »
    You guys need to visit Vernal.  All trucks, no cars.  All the trucks are big.  Bigger the better there.

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #16 on: August 18, 2016, 08:30:50 AM »
    Trucks are less easily immobilized... But you are still vulnerable in them.   We demonstrated bullet penetration in vehicles with the biggest truck doors we could find.
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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #17 on: August 18, 2016, 11:18:36 AM »
    i am not normally a fancy truck guy.  My last car was a Volkswagen Jetta diesel with speed dimples from a hale storm.

    This was a gift, believe it or not.  It was also very slightly used and the lift kit, fender flares, pop out running boards, fancy wheels and tires were all added by the previous owner.  Who then found out he was about to be a daddy and couldn't afford it.

    I have a trailer for stuff that is too scratchy for the truck, and while I plan to keep it nice, I also don't plan to baby it.

    If stopped, I don't plan to get out unless it is completely immobilized/disabled.  And that is far harder to accomplish in this than in my Jetta.
    Utah

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #18 on: August 29, 2016, 12:05:18 AM »
    We have the same problem with the show trucks. Usually driven by High schoolers and college kids whose parents have a lot of money and think Luke Bryan is an example of good country. We usually have a good time with those when you right them tickets.

    One guy on the squad usually tells them "sorry" which they then ask why. His response is usually "your parents had to spend so much money just so you could compensate"


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    MTK20

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #19 on: August 29, 2016, 09:11:44 AM »
    We have the same problem with the show trucks. Usually driven by High schoolers and college kids whose parents have a lot of money and think Luke Bryan is an example of good country. We usually have a good time with those when you right them tickets.

    One guy on the squad usually tells them "sorry" which they then ask why. His response is usually "your parents had to spend so much money just so you could compensate"


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     :rotfl

    That's hilarious! I'm surprised that your fellow coworkers don't get written up or need to attend "sensitivity training" more often. I know every office has politics, but I forget that not every one's office politics are as constrictive as mine.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Chief45

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #20 on: August 29, 2016, 09:48:26 AM »
    rather like the ones running around with a set of fake bull balls hangin from the hitch.    might be just a little bit of compensation going on  . . . .


    cause if you gotta graft a set of fake balls onto your truck,  wonder where else they might be missing from . . .  :rotfl


    **SNIP** "your parents had to spend so much money just so you could compensate"


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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #21 on: August 29, 2016, 02:58:38 PM »
    :rotfl

    That's hilarious! I'm surprised that your fellow coworkers don't get written up or need to attend "sensitivity training" more often. I know every office has politics, but I forget that not every one's office politics are as constrictive as mine.

    As long as we are polite and don't curse  the complaints don't go past maybe the Sergeant.


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    sarge712

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #22 on: August 29, 2016, 06:35:19 PM »
    As long as we are polite and don't curse  the complaints don't go past maybe the Sergeant.


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    As it should be
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    armoredman

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #23 on: August 29, 2016, 08:29:03 PM »
    Did anyone else here see the old movie Deadly Weapons where they did a lot of work showing bullet deflection in window glass, trees and car door penetration? The lesson from the last one is drive a 1970s vehicle - it's almost armored.

    katmandoo

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    Re: Stopped and Under Attack? Get Out and Move!
    « Reply #24 on: August 30, 2016, 11:08:29 AM »
    these are the kind of idiots we have to deal with in Minneapolis/St. Paul.  These scumbags just keep getting more brazen because LEOs have been ordered to stand down by the useless liberal morons in charge around here.  Luckily the gal in the car does it right.  push on through! 

    http://www.fox9.com/news/197164803-story
    MinnesotaKevin - Stillwater, MN

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    Thomas Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in Chapter 40 of "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764

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