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Author Topic: Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.  (Read 1246 times)

MTK20

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Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.
« on: January 13, 2017, 10:44:48 AM »


This scenario is just nuts.

Enjoy!

Personally, my strategy would be to let them take whatever they wanted and not intervene until someone was at risk of injury. If you can, get out of the dangerous situation. Never risk life and limb for material items which can be easily replaced.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Grant

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    Re: Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.
    « Reply #1 on: January 13, 2017, 12:30:55 PM »
         I'm guessing that's brazil, and they really could care less about civilian casualties (to a degree).  There's quite a few videos of them pulling stunts such as the above that wouldn't be allowable in the US.

        The criticism of revolvers being low capacity, while somewhat valid, is wiped out by the cop not carrying a reload, which all of us do.

    That fight is also why I carry a BUG and easily drawn knife. While not always able to draw from my pocket, in THAT instance: revolver empty, let them grab it, moment's respite and fire at near-contact distance.

       
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    MTK20

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    Re: Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.
    « Reply #2 on: January 13, 2017, 01:15:30 PM »
         I'm guessing that's brazil, and they really could care less about civilian casualties (to a degree).  There's quite a few videos of them pulling stunts such as the above that wouldn't be allowable in the US.

        The criticism of revolvers being low capacity, while somewhat valid, is wiped out by the cop not carrying a reload, which all of us do.

    That fight is also why I carry a BUG and easily drawn knife. While not always able to draw from my pocket, in THAT instance: revolver empty, let them grab it, moment's respite and fire at near-contact distance.

     

    What kind of knife do you carry? I also didn't know that you carry a BUG.

    I carry a Cold Steel AK-47 on my strong side.

    I carry a single speed loader, but I'm considering carrying additional speed strips when I get some decent ammo to fill them up with.

    Carrying a BUG or knife on the weak side is good policy, because the odds are that in the heat of the moment you'll be fighting someone off with your dominant hand.

    While he had an argument against the revolver, I noticed no criticism of a semiauto. If someone was directly on top of me at contact distance, I would happily take 6 or even 5 for sure instead of 15, maybe. I think the odds of pressing the muzzle into the attacker, and subsequently taking the gun out of battery- leaving it inoperable at that moment, are pretty darn high.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Plebian

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    Re: Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.
    « Reply #3 on: January 13, 2017, 05:00:35 PM »
    Getting involved in that seemed to be a bad idea.

    Carrying any extra weapon would be great and learning some hand to hand including ground work is ideal. If you are in that kind of scrap looking for in situ weapons should be something you train for a bit if possible.

    The one 'bad guy' lost his helmet in the scuffle. If you are out of ammo and going back after them. Then a helmet makes a damn fine impact weapon and buckler like shield. Also bouncing someone's head off of the pavement or other hard surfaces is just as effective as bashing with a rock.

    All combat is just time sensitive problem solving with dire consequences. This little firefight and scuffle just proves it better than most situations.
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    Grant

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    Re: Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.
    « Reply #4 on: January 13, 2017, 06:23:08 PM »
      It's nothing major, a gunshow "assisted opening" one.    It solid for a cheapy and got a good edge, I never USE it like my folding pocket knife so it keeps an edge and will stab inwards is all I need.  I also have an EDC leatherman and EDC double-blade US-made Schrade Old Timer for my work/abuse-a-knife jobs.

       As you said, my BUG goes in my left front pocket, LCP .380, no reloads usually or occasionally a reload magazine in my watch pocket on the right hand side.   I also carry a minimum of 12 extra rounds, 6 in a speedstrip pouch and 6 in a bianchi clone 2X2X2 holder.    often I carry another 6 in another speedstrip pouch.       I figure 24 rounds of .357 magnum should take care of any fight I'm in.  if not that's enough to get me to a pickup gun.

        Also, even at contact distances I'm not too worried about a gun being OOB and unable to fire.    If a fight is that close contact after a second the muzzle will be away from contact and firing.   
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    MTK20

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    Re: Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.
    « Reply #5 on: January 13, 2017, 06:49:20 PM »
      It's nothing major, a gunshow "assisted opening" one.    It solid for a cheapy and got a good edge, I never USE it like my folding pocket knife so it keeps an edge and will stab inwards is all I need.  I also have an EDC leatherman and EDC double-blade US-made Schrade Old Timer for my work/abuse-a-knife jobs.

       As you said, my BUG goes in my left front pocket, LCP .380, no reloads usually or occasionally a reload magazine in my watch pocket on the right hand side.   I also carry a minimum of 12 extra rounds, 6 in a speedstrip pouch and 6 in a bianchi clone 2X2X2 holder.    often I carry another 6 in another speedstrip pouch.       I figure 24 rounds of .357 magnum should take care of any fight I'm in.  if not that's enough to get me to a pickup gun.

        Also, even at contact distances I'm not too worried about a gun being OOB and unable to fire.    If a fight is that close contact after a second the muzzle will be away from contact and firing.

    All good stuff. I typically don't carry a reload for my Smith 642 either, unless it actually is my primary gun that day, then it is 2 speed strips. It is stoked with Hornady standard pressure .38 Spcl's. If I am within bad breath distance and have shot all 5, then I'm not sure how feasible it would be to reload at that distance anyways.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.
    « Reply #6 on: January 14, 2017, 12:34:19 AM »
    First off, that cop is a moron.  No other way to say it.

    Personally, my strategy would be to let them take whatever they wanted and not intervene until someone was at risk of injury. If you can, get out of the dangerous situation. Never risk life and limb for material items which can be easily replaced.
    But he was a cop.  Maybe he had no duty to intervene while off duty, but maybe down in Brazil they do.  Regardless, his tactics still sucked, as did his situational awareness.  He is lucky the robbers were just that incompetent, as are they, that he was.

    The criticism of revolvers being low capacity, while somewhat valid, is wiped out by the cop not carrying a reload, which all of us do.
    No, sorry.  He never had time to reload.  Even reloading an automatic would have given the perps a window of opportunity, either to get scarce, or to close and shoot him.  And the amount of time that this fight lasted?  It is hard to believe that he only shot 6 times.  If he had fired 15 rounds in the same time frame, (or at least had the option, and then could be more liberal with his lead distribution) one or both of the perps may have been taken down.

    Obviously this is not a scenario any US CCWer is likely to encounter, and certainly one such would have no duty to intervene, but walking into the middle of something like this is not an impossibility.  What I find more concerning is just how determined the thugs seem to be, to stick around and finish him off.  I suppose I like to assume that even hardened criminals have a survival instinct to run away from potential loss of life.  This video seems to indicate otherwise.
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
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    Grant

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    Re: Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.
    « Reply #7 on: January 14, 2017, 08:08:52 AM »
    No, sorry.  He never had time to reload.  Even reloading an automatic would have given the perps a window of opportunity, either to get scarce, or to close and shoot him.  And the amount of time that this fight lasted?  It is hard to believe that he only shot 6 times.  If he had fired 15 rounds in the same time frame, (or at least had the option, and then could be more liberal with his lead distribution) one or both of the perps may have been taken down.

    I was referring more to the end when he continued attacking them with an empty gun.   

    I'd say they NORMALLY....would have left.....but after shooting their demo reels for Naked Gun 44 1/4 BRAZIL EDITION!!!! and clicking their empty guns a dozen times each, they figured they could stick around and try to beat the crap out of the guy who embaressed them.
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    Kaso

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    Re: Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.
    « Reply #8 on: January 14, 2017, 01:15:17 PM »
    I was referring more to the end when he continued attacking them with an empty gun.   
    I see your point, though if he had taken time to reload a revolver at that point, the perps would have fled on their motorcycle.  That is a perfectly acceptable ending for a CCW civilian, but maybe less so for a sworn LEO.

    Regardless, this video does show the nightmare that could occur if attackers decide Not to flee upon encountering resistance.  If they decide to shoot it out to the end - either theirs or yours.
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
    20 January 2017, 12:01pm
    Here's to a great four years!

    MTK20

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    Re: Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.
    « Reply #9 on: January 14, 2017, 02:08:37 PM »
    I see your point, though if he had taken time to reload a revolver at that point, the perps would have fled on their motorcycle.  That is a perfectly acceptable ending for a CCW civilian, but maybe less so for a sworn LEO.

    Regardless, this video does show the nightmare that could occur if attackers decide Not to flee upon encountering resistance.  If they decide to shoot it out to the end - either theirs or yours.

    Very scary stuff indeed. I just want to got to work and come home to my family everyday in complete boring monotony. I'm perfectly fine with living a life free of "excitement" and gun fire.

    Criminals are a______s, and the worst part is that they choose when to come into our part of the world and fluff things up  :bash.

    Basically the summary of why I carry. I don't want to hurt anyone, but I certainly don't want to meet a premature and unnecessarily violent end, just cos someone wished I was carrying a $50 bill instead of a $20 in my wallet.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.
    « Reply #10 on: January 14, 2017, 05:40:16 PM »
    Very scary stuff indeed. I just want to got to work and come home to my family everyday in complete boring monotony. I'm perfectly fine with living a life free of "excitement" and gun fire.
    Boring monotony is for the peasants.  I don't desire a boring life, but I do plan to come home every night.  Whatever that may require.

    Basically the summary of why I carry. I don't want to hurt anyone, but I certainly don't want to meet a premature and unnecessarily violent end, just cos someone wished I was carrying a $50 bill instead of a $20 in my wallet.
    If they have a weapon, and are holding your wallet, why haven't you shot them yet?  :scrutiny  I know the popular thing is to say that 'stuff can be replaced,' and to 'give them what they want.'  F___ that.  If life is valuable, then I don't plan to ransom mine for the cost of my $4 wallet.  I am worth more than that.  Threaten to hurt me, and you'll (either throw your hands up in clear surrender, or) wish you hadn't. 

    That is the rule.  Threaten me, (or God help you, someone I care about) and you are going to the prison, the hospital, or the cemetery.  You will not walk free, no exceptions.
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
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    Here's to a great four years!

    Grant

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    Re: Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.
    « Reply #11 on: January 14, 2017, 08:26:51 PM »
    I see your point, though if he had taken time to reload a revolver at that point, the perps would have fled on their motorcycle.  That is a perfectly acceptable ending for a CCW civilian, but maybe less so for a sworn LEO.

     :scrutiny  I see plenty of time for a reload.   

    That said, I agree with Kaso to a point.   My wallet is worth fighting for.   It has my name and address in it.  It has spare keys to 2 of my vehicles and my house key.  I be damned if some little ****'s getting the key to my house.   
    Montana"I’d say the worst part of all this is the feeling of betrayal,           but I’m betting the part where they break in here and beat us to death might be worse.”

    MTK20

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    Re: Multiple Attackers, Empty Guns, And Ground Fighting.
    « Reply #12 on: January 14, 2017, 10:54:05 PM »
    Boring monotony is for the peasants.  I don't desire a boring life, but I do plan to come home every night.  Whatever that may require.

     :facepalm You know that I don't actually wish to lead a boring, monotonous life, but I don't wish to fight criminals on the regular either.

    If they have a weapon, and are holding your wallet, why haven't you shot them yet?  :scrutiny  I know the popular thing is to say that 'stuff can be replaced,' and to 'give them what they want.'  F___ that.  If life is valuable, then I don't plan to ransom mine for the cost of my $4 wallet.  I am worth more than that.  Threaten to hurt me, and you'll (either throw your hands up in clear surrender, or) wish you hadn't. 

    That is the rule.  Threaten me, (or God help you, someone I care about) and you are going to the prison, the hospital, or the cemetery.  You will not walk free, no exceptions.

    Fully agree on this point. When the equation is no longer myself at risk, but me having a rapidly closing window of time to prevent bodily harm to someone I care about, then it is in the crims best interest to comply and stop what they are doing immediately. People are not replaceable and I've lived a whole life time to find a mere handful of good ones. Threaten one of the "good one's" and you're playing with fire  ;).

    :scrutiny  I see plenty of time for a reload.   

    That said, I agree with Kaso to a point.   My wallet is worth fighting for.   It has my name and address in it.  It has spare keys to 2 of my vehicles and my house key.  I be damned if some little ****'s getting the key to my house.   

    This is also a good point, we have to weigh our options. Like I said in my original post, never risk life or limb for material items which can be easily replaced. For instance a television, Ipod, and dining room table can all be easily replaced. However a dog or the watch your wife gave you before she passed away are all items which are not easily replaced. In that instance, I would not fault someone for clutching on to said watch during a mugging or shooting a home invader who was going to kill/injure their dog.

    Actually, my grandmother fought off a mugger over sentimentality. I had been born and she had just gotten back from Texas (she lived in Wisconsin at the time), and one rainy day a purse snatcher tried to get her handbag. Well, inside that purse were my baby pictures. My grandmother fought, clawed, and poked that mugger with the pointy end of her umbrella until he decided it wasn't worth it. She risked life and limb for pictures of family, something she placed a great deal of value on, so yes, I hear y'all loud and clear regarding some "stuff" is worth fighting for- whether it be a large sum of cash or something that cannot be replaced and of high sentimental value.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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