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Author Topic: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.  (Read 2504 times)

Plebian

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Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2017, 03:55:57 PM »
Most of the wasters(practice swords) in use anymore are synthetic of one sort or another. It is safer than wood or rattan and many are flexible enough to practice various thrusts with as well. Which was not advised with wooden wasters.

SCA and HEMA are quite different in many ways, but there are many folks that cross back and forth of course. SCA is typically more RP like experiences, and HEMA tends to be a little more martial art oriented.

The rules for both obviously vary greatly. SCA tends to have rules that lean toward making good shows and moving away from actual historic practices in combat. (Head, neck, wrist, lower leg etc strikes)

Where HEMA tends to have a minimal rule set trying to approximate historic combat as close as safely possible. HEMA also tends to have afterblow penalties or graces of various types. So if you make a great thrust to my chest, but I strike immediately after with a strike to the head or neck. We either both end up with no points OR negative points. So it tends to reward real world strikes you can pull off and still defend the afterblow. Since this is stressed over and over in many treatise from the time periods studied. 

Matt Easton on the scholagladiatoria youtube channel does excellent HEMA/historical fencing videos. If you are so inclined to watch. 
Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

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    digiroc

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    Re: Grabbing the Good Guy's Cane...
    « Reply #26 on: January 25, 2017, 06:29:37 AM »
    Thank you Plebian for your illumination on the subject. Off topic, but interesting nonetheless. Encountering an edged weapon on the street can be more intimidating than facing a firearm, especially when within grasping distance.

    We have all heard about never bringing a knife to a gun fight, and I would also say most, if not all of us, have heard about the "21 foot rule" when facing an assailant with an edged weapon. Putting hits on a knife weilding attacker may not be enough to prevent him from closing the distance and cutting your throat. 

    A handgun can be neutralized easier in contact distance than an edged weapon. Firearms are standoff weapons and once that distance is closed their best advantage is lost. This is why many experienced fighters carry an edged weapon of some sort for that last resort type of encounter when the distance is reduced to zero and you are grappling or even rolling around on the ground with your attacker.

    My favorite edged weapon is a sword cane made by Cold Steel. While affecting a cane (thankfully I don't need one to get around, yet). Of course when I have the cane I also have, at a minimum, my J frame Smith. The cane is a defensive weapon that offers a graduated response. Once a gun is drawn the only option left is pulling the trigger.

    The cane can be used as a standoff weapon, much easier to two hand before it is unsheathed than a naked blade. it can also be very effective a a club, with the sword in it it's pretty heavy. When the attacker grabs it, a likely reaction, then he is left with a lightweight aluminum tube and you have a sword which he has unsheathed for you.




    digiroc
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    Plebian

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #27 on: January 25, 2017, 07:15:08 AM »
    A sturdy cane is a pretty formidable weapon in its own right.

    I have never personally used the Cold Steel sword cane, but every sword cane I have seen in person was flimsy enough to be near useless. Cold Steel tends to make sturdy, heavy products with questionable balance but plenty of strength. So it may be a serviceable weapon.

    It was just always hard for me to see the advantage of a sword cane over carrying a good solid cane AND a nice fixed blade knife.

    I think many folks over look the excellent qualities of a good solid impact weapon, and do not give it nearly the respect it deserves in trained hands. 
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    digiroc

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #28 on: January 25, 2017, 09:51:05 AM »
    A sturdy cane is a pretty formidable weapon in its own right... I think many folks over look the excellent qualities of a good solid impact weapon, and do not give it nearly the respect it deserves in trained hands.

    "Trained Hands" is a key point. Even when empty, trained hands can be and are devastating weapons. Against a skilled Kendo operator my sword cane wouldn't be much of a challenge. I followed your link to scholagladiatoria and my sword cane is not even a consideration in a sword fight.

    I am not a swordsman or even close. My encounter with my Cousin so many years ago proved that to me without a doubt. Having said that, the Cold Steel sword cane is a concealed weapon that allows my level of aggression in response to an encounter that could lead to an attack by common street thugs to proceed in stages, unlike drawing my firearm which leaves me only one option left, pulling the trigger.

    My first and, so far most reliable defensive option, is situational awareness, avoiding trouble and dangerous encounters by avoiding them. Times are changing now and for many years I felt that (by training) I could handle most civilian street threats without resorting to deadly force. Now not so much. I'm going to be 70 years old this year and have lost the stamina for a protracted fight for my life.

    Gone are the days i could go ten rounds or even three. I'm reminded of the Toby Keith song "I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever was". Now I've got at best a minute of fight left in me, but if I can't end it in the first 15 seconds, (or 1.5 seconds if firearms are involved), I should have stayed at home.

    digiroc
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    Chief45

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #29 on: January 25, 2017, 10:42:32 AM »
    used to be an outfit around called Cane Masters.  http://www.canemasters.com/  offering stock and custom made canes and instruction in their use for self defense.   The idea being, who looks twice at a cane.  These are not the cheap junk, or the stupid hidden sword stuff.  These are simply well made, very solid canes, with some grip points built in, that can be carried anywhere, including federal buildings, that you already have in your hand.

    part of the point being, you carry a sword cane, and use it, you are potentially setting yourself up.  You use a solid wooden cane that has NO secrets or hidden stuff, and it's just a cane. 

    I did some training with a Bo and Jo and I have a lot of respect for what can be accomplished with a simple piece of wood.  Especially if your in places where you can't carry anything else.


    A sturdy cane is a pretty formidable weapon in its own right.

    I have never personally used the Cold Steel sword cane, but every sword cane I have seen in person was flimsy enough to be near useless. Cold Steel tends to make sturdy, heavy products with questionable balance but plenty of strength. So it may be a serviceable weapon.

    It was just always hard for me to see the advantage of a sword cane over carrying a good solid cane AND a nice fixed blade knife.

    I think many folks over look the excellent qualities of a good solid impact weapon, and do not give it nearly the respect it deserves in trained hands.
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

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    digiroc

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    Re: Beat the bad guy with a stick ...
    « Reply #30 on: January 25, 2017, 11:10:54 AM »
    All good points Chief 45, and I do have a collection of "regular" canes as well as my "stupid sword cane" (a point I beg to differ on). I'll check out your link to fighting canes, a good choice in many situations.

    I do have a pretty good Shillelagh parked behind my front door, which by the way, is a much more threatening device than my sword cane from a casual glance.

    digiroc
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    Chief45

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    Re: Beat the bad guy with a stick ...
    « Reply #31 on: January 25, 2017, 12:42:00 PM »
    I don't know about the one from Cold Steel, as they do good work, but the VAST majority of sword canes I've seen over the years can be classed as JUNK

    All good points Chief 45, and I do have a collection of "regular" canes as well as my "stupid sword cane" (a point I beg to differ on). I'll check out your link to fighting canes, a good choice in many situations.

    I do have a pretty good Shillelagh parked behind my front door, which by the way, is a much more threatening device than my sword cane from a casual glance.

    digiroc
    KansasUN-Retired LEO.

    Non Timebo Mala . . . . . . . I will fear no evil. . .

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    digiroc

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    Re: Beat the bad guy with a stick ...
    « Reply #32 on: January 25, 2017, 02:01:15 PM »
    I don't know about the one from Cold Steel...

    See the video i posted and get a more informed opinion.
    Pennsylvania

    MTK20

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #33 on: January 25, 2017, 02:50:32 PM »
    Thread drift  :coffee.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    digiroc

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #34 on: January 25, 2017, 02:58:33 PM »
    So true MTK20. as new guy here I take the blame, so an attempt to get back on topic:



    My command of languages is not there (yiddish) but the video somewhat speaks for itself. The Israelis have taken self defense pretty seriously, for more information Krav Maga development and techniques Wikipedia has more info:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

    digiroc
    « Last Edit: January 25, 2017, 03:13:34 PM by digiroc »
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    MTK20

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #35 on: January 25, 2017, 03:49:33 PM »
    So true MTK20. as new guy here I take the blame, so an attempt to get back on topic:



    My command of languages is not there (yiddish) but the video somewhat speaks for itself. The Israelis have taken self defense pretty seriously, for more information Krav Maga development and techniques Wikipedia has more info:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga

    digiroc

    Not your fault, we're notorious for drifting threads here. I myself am a pretty bad offender as well  :cool.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Plebian

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #36 on: January 25, 2017, 04:32:10 PM »
    Thread drift  :coffee.

    Thread ENHANCEMENT is a standard feature of this forum.  :D
    Oklahoma"If all our problems are solved, we'll find new ones to replace them. If we can't find new ones, we'll make new ones."

    Kaso

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #37 on: January 25, 2017, 04:41:47 PM »
    So true MTK20. as new guy here I take the blame, so an attempt to get back on topic:
    Don't mind MTK20.  ;)  We are pretty lax about enforcing thread drift anymore, but sometimes he wants to keep talking about the topic at hand.

    And it is a good topic to discus.  Personally, I have given it some thought, and I feel that controlling the opponent's weapon - especially a firearm - is preferable to trying to disable it.  If someone gets the drop on you, and sticks a gun into your ribs, are you really going to try to push it out of battery?  My first priority would be gaining control of the muzzle - pointing somewhere other than me.  Once that is done, the gun is more or less neutralized.  It is still a threat, and the opponent still has the firing grip, but pulling the trigger will do him no good.

    I am not trained in disarming techniques, so I will not offer advice or opinions, but the first priority it to either move off of the line of fire, or move the line of fire off of you.
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
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    MTK20

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #38 on: January 25, 2017, 04:41:59 PM »
    Thread ENHANCEMENT is a standard feature of this forum.  :D

     :rotfl

    Welcome to Gun Talk: Tokyo thread Drift edition.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Kaso

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #39 on: January 25, 2017, 04:44:36 PM »
    Thread ENHANCEMENT is a standard feature of this forum.  :D
    Indeed.  The mods used to be anal about thread drift, and FMJ caught a lot of flak back in the day.  Now we just run around unsupervised, and the threads go where we take them. :thumbup1
    Donald J Trump, by the Grace of God: 45th president of the United States.
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    Here's to a great four years!

    ZeroTA

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #40 on: January 26, 2017, 08:58:28 AM »
    In the last class I took we worked on disarms from different angles,  and it's actually pretty simple. All of us were effective nearly 100% of the time, with a gun in your face or chest, off to the side, or in your back.  I'd say 100% but I didn't see every single drill for every single person. It's one of those things that you think, "Hmmm...I don't know..." until you do it. It's not that hard. I wouldn't say it's a go-to move, but it's certainly an option if you're behind the curve.
    I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't.

    MTK20

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #41 on: March 12, 2017, 01:39:38 PM »
    Not sure why this police officer entered a cramped bus with only one hand on her service firearm and an outstretched hand, but here is a bad guy who was (thankfully) unsuccessful at disarming this police officer.

    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #42 on: March 12, 2017, 02:10:07 PM »
    Well, hindsight is usually 100% correct but I'm thinking if you have a deranged man on a bus, you have to actually enter the bus to A) protect the driver and any passengers remaining on board  B) Confront the threat and make sure he doesn't take control of the bus and drive it into bystanders or other vehicles.  As far as why one hand was outstretched?  Who knows - balance while boarding the bus while simultaneously confronting the threat?  It could easily have gone wrong and from a training standpoint maybe it did but as soon as the man refused to put his hands up he pretty much signed his own death warrant in that situation. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
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    MTK20

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #43 on: March 12, 2017, 02:20:59 PM »
    Well, hindsight is usually 100% correct but I'm thinking if you have a deranged man on a bus, you have to actually enter the bus to A) protect the driver and any passengers remaining on board  B) Confront the threat and make sure he doesn't take control of the bus and drive it into bystanders or other vehicles.  As far as why one hand was outstretched?  Who knows - balance while boarding the bus while simultaneously confronting the threat?  It could easily have gone wrong and from a training standpoint maybe it did but as soon as the man refused to put his hands up he pretty much signed his own death warrant in that situation.

    Hell, him coming towards her gave her the right to put rounds on target. I think maybe she did need it for balance, but he was really eager to go in for the disarm. I shudder to think what would've happened had the partner not been there.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #44 on: March 12, 2017, 02:28:03 PM »
    I honestly think that if I had been that bus driver, I would have tried to tackle the guy at the knees when he was struggling with the officer or at least try to shove him out the door with a well placed boot in his ass. 
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    MTK20

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #45 on: March 12, 2017, 02:55:57 PM »


    This bus driver knew how to handle "the ruckus" on his bus. He pinned the ne'er do well with the bus doors and then taught him some lessons with in the confines of his justice mobile, all while not even stopping. 10 and 2? More like 10 and beat ass  :cool.

    My favourite part is how Norah Jones sunrise plays peacefully in the background while the physical behavioural modification is in progress  :rotfl. It might be past sunrise in Chile, but that crook certainly came away with a few shiners  :P.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    coelacanth

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #46 on: March 12, 2017, 03:02:29 PM »
    Owie.   :shocked
    Arizona"A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness.  Bad manners.  Lack of consideration for others in minor matters.  A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot."
                          Robert A. Heinlein ,   Friday

    booksmart

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #47 on: March 13, 2017, 09:53:43 AM »
    A cousin? Do *that*?! NEVER...  ::)

    MTK20

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #48 on: March 13, 2017, 09:55:56 AM »
    A cousin? Do *that*?! NEVER...  ::)

    Cousin?

    I only see bus drivers and police officers here  :shrug.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    booksmart

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #49 on: March 13, 2017, 02:08:33 PM »
    D'oh! this is either in the wrong thread, or a looooot got posted...  :facepalm


    Yup... a lot got posted. This was in response to the cousin setting him waaaay back on page 1... in my defense, I had a stomach bug over the weekend, and I'm still not 100%.
    « Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 03:20:02 PM by booksmart »

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