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Author Topic: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.  (Read 2681 times)

MTK20

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Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
« on: January 15, 2017, 08:03:28 PM »


The front sight, under recoil, does not automatically become a deadly hand slicer.
Texas
Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

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    Raptor

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #1 on: January 15, 2017, 08:16:21 PM »
    Hmm... I'm gonna have to rewrite that scene in Fallen Star now.
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    MTK20

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #2 on: January 15, 2017, 09:21:04 PM »
    Hmm... I'm gonna have to rewrite that scene in Fallen Star now.

    Sorry for causing extra work on your part  :-[.

    Still a cool demonstration, though  :cool.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Raptor

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #3 on: January 15, 2017, 09:27:34 PM »
    Sorry for causing extra work on your part  :-[.

    Still a cool demonstration, though  :cool.

    lol, no worries. The story needs a major overhaul anyways; I'll just cut out the bit about Keith's palm getting sliced open.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    MTK20

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #4 on: January 15, 2017, 10:01:25 PM »
    Regarding this situation, Massad Ayoob recommended a particular sight because it was kind of sharp and could deter more grabby bad guys. I can't remember what sight that was though.

    If the BG was using that and Keith had a crummy grip on the gun, that one sentence could save you some writing.

    Also, I just really want to find out what sight that was again.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Raptor

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #5 on: January 15, 2017, 10:42:56 PM »
    The entire manuscript needs serious overhauling regardless. I was just trying (and failing, as usual  ::) ) to be humorous.

    Apologies for the derail. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
    PennsylvaniaNon Timebo Mala -- I Will Fear No Evil

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    ZeroTA

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 01:14:29 AM »
    On any striker fired pistol you can put your thumb behind the slide and prevent it from moving with no effort. I didn't believe it til I tried. A full grip will lock it up pretty well.
    I'm not saying you should use an M1A for home defense, but I'm also not saying you shouldn't.

    sarge712

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #7 on: January 17, 2017, 03:52:25 PM »
    On any striker fired pistol you can put your thumb behind the slide and prevent it from moving with no effort. I didn't believe it til I tried. 

    Yep. I tried it with a G22 when we were first issued them back in 1994.
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    MTK20

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #8 on: January 17, 2017, 07:07:46 PM »
    Yep. I tried it with a G22 when we were first issued them back in 1994.

    How is it with something as snappy as a .40? I'd assume that would be one of the more difficult one's to do.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Chief45

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #9 on: January 18, 2017, 10:01:00 AM »
    that is the Glock 40.  :hmm    just a little bit of pressure really.   no problem to keep the slide in place while firing.



    How is it with something as snappy as a .40? I'd assume that would be one of the more difficult one's to do.
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    MTK20

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #10 on: January 18, 2017, 10:13:16 AM »
    that is the Glock 40. :hmm    just a little bit of pressure really.   no problem to keep the slide in place while firing.

    In the video I shared, he said it was a 9mm Glock  :cool.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    freeman1685

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #11 on: January 18, 2017, 10:19:32 AM »
    I have to laugh, this subject comes up every few months or so, and I gigglesnort.  Some so called expert talks about grabbing a gun, and holding the slide while it's being fired.  :facepalm

    The answer is really quite simple, and is based on the mechanics of every modern auto loader.  If you are close enough to get your hand on an adversary's weapon, you push the friggin' slide out of battery, and it can not be fired at all.  Every modern auto loader has a mechanism of some kind that keeps the thing from being fired if the slide is out of battery.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    Chief45

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #12 on: January 18, 2017, 04:57:49 PM »
    my bad.  You quoted Sarge, who had just replied he had done it with a 40S&W Glock model 22.   I did not understand that you were still talking about the video. 




    In the video I shared, he said it was a 9mm Glock  :cool.
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    MTK20

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #13 on: January 18, 2017, 05:13:37 PM »
    my bad.  You quoted Sarge, who had just replied he had done it with a 40S&W Glock model 22.   I did not understand that you were still talking about the video.

    All good. As long as we are talking about the Good Guy's disarming the BG's in spectacular fashion, then we're all in agreement  :neener.

    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Plebian

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #14 on: January 18, 2017, 06:07:12 PM »
    I think if you are at the grabbing a bad guys gun point in the altercation. 'Will it hurt my hand?' is way down on the list of worries.

    It seems to fall into the grabbing a blade to stop someone stabbing you. Yeah it is gonna hurt your hand, but it seems better to stop it with your hand than using your internal organs and rib cage to hopefully stop the stabbing. 
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    sarge712

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #15 on: January 19, 2017, 04:15:33 PM »
    I think I'm going to grind my front sight to a sharp point tonight so I will be deadlier tomorrow.
    North CarolinaBe without fear in the face of thine enemies.
    Be brave and upright that God may love thee.
    Speak the truth always even if it leads to thy death.
    Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong.
    That is thine oath.

    Plebian

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #16 on: January 19, 2017, 04:25:01 PM »
    I think I'm going to grind my front sight to a sharp point tonight so I will be deadlier tomorrow.

    Don't you want it dull, so it will hurt more?

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    Rockwolf66

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #17 on: January 20, 2017, 10:59:46 PM »
    Plebian,

    You can actually grab a sharp blade without getting cut. It's just nearly impossible to properly grab some elses blade properly. People have been grabbing blades to beat some fool for centuries.



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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #18 on: January 20, 2017, 11:15:54 PM »
    Plebian,

    You can actually grab a sharp blade without getting cut. It's just nearly impossible to properly grab some elses blade properly. People have been grabbing blades to beat some fool for centuries.
    Plebian is our resident expert on medieval weapons.  He knows a great deal about the subject, including halfswording.

    Good video though.  Thanks for sharing. :thumbup1
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    Plebian

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #19 on: January 21, 2017, 12:10:51 AM »
    It's just nearly impossible to properly grab some elses blade properly.

    I got some super sweet scaring on my left hand that illustrates how hard it is to grab an attackers blade without getting cut.  ;)
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    digiroc

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #20 on: January 24, 2017, 07:47:55 AM »
    ... The answer is really quite simple, and is based on the mechanics of every modern auto loader.  If you are close enough to get your hand on an adversary's weapon, you push the friggin' slide out of battery, and it can not be fired at all.  Every modern auto loader has a mechanism of some kind that keeps the thing from being fired if the slide is out of battery.

    While that is true I wouldn't expect to be able to keep the slide pushed out of battery as the assailant will be trying to get it back, and once the slide comes forward the pistol will fire. This is not the case with a revolver if you get a grip on the cylinder the gun will not fire unless the hammer has been cocked into single action. This is one reason why I like a hammer on my revolvers. Cocking it into single action also sends a message that you are prepared to shoot.

    In any case, an attacker who comes that close with a weapon in hand is not a skilled gun handler and deserves to be beaten with his own weapon.

    digiroc
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    digiroc

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #21 on: January 24, 2017, 08:14:10 AM »
    Plebian is our resident expert on medieval weapons.  He knows a great deal about the subject, including halfswording...

    I have a cousin who is a member of the Creative Acronisum (sp?) Society, a group who gets together to beat the snot out of each other with Oak staves as swords while dressed in homemade but period correct armor.

    I have an interest in edged weapons so I asked cousin Chris to bring an extra set of armor next time he was coming to town and he did. We faced off and he was awesome. I'm pretty agile, but he was able to stand in front of me and whack me repeatedly in the back of the helmet with his Oak "sword". I had no defense for this and ultimately had to strike his sword hand (cheating) to make him drop his "sword". I promptly stepped on it and held my sword in high ready.

    He could have charged me weaponless, but this was a friendly fight so he just b____ed about me cheating. Moral to the story, chivalry aside, there are no rules in a real fight, take any advantage you can. Of course if it were a real sword fight with real swords he would have cut my head off long before I had a chance to strike his sword hand.

    digiroc
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    freeman1685

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #22 on: January 24, 2017, 09:27:05 AM »
    While that is true I wouldn't expect to be able to keep the slide pushed out of battery as the assailant will be trying to get it back, and once the slide comes forward the pistol will fire. This is not the case with a revolver if you get a grip on the cylinder the gun will not fire unless the hammer has been cocked into single action. This is one reason why I like a hammer on my revolvers. Cocking it into single action also sends a message that you are prepared to shoot.

    In any case, an attacker who comes that close with a weapon in hand is not a skilled gun handler and deserves to be beaten with his own weapon.

    digiroc

    As you have pointed out, a CHUD stupid enough, to get close close enough to have their gun grabbed by a victim, is probably not going to have the presence of mind to pull away.  Their reflex is going to be to push.  They will be disoriented by the fact that their target isn't the wool producing herd animal they had anticipated.

    Pushing the slide out of battery is only the first of a series of possible techniques aimed at disarming them.  Even something as simple as a good solid kick to the juevos is going to be a distraction.  Pistolcraft is more than pulling a trigger, a knowledge of self defence techniques is as essential, as proper weapons handling.
    ArizonaStupidity cannot be cured with money, or through education or by legislation.  Stupidity is not a sin, the victim can't help being stupid.  But stupidity is the only universal capital crime; the sentence is death, there is no appeal, and execution is carried out automatically and without pity.  RAH

    LowKey

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    Re: Grabbing the Bad Guy's Gun.
    « Reply #23 on: January 24, 2017, 09:39:58 AM »
    I have a cousin who is a member of the Creative Acronisum (sp?) Society, a group who gets together to beat the snot out of each other with Oak staves rattan as swords while dressed in homemade but period correct armor.

    I have an interest in edged weapons so I asked cousin Chris to bring an extra set of armor next time he was coming to town and he did. We faced off and he was awesome. I'm pretty agile, but he was able to stand in front of me and whack me repeatedly in the back of the helmet with his Oak rattan "sword". I had no defense for this and ultimately had to strike his sword hand (cheating) to make him drop his "sword". I promptly stepped on it and held my sword in high ready.

    He could have charged me weaponless, but this was a friendly fight so he just b____ed about me cheating. Moral to the story, chivalry aside, there are no rules in a real fight, take any advantage you can. Of course if it were a real sword fight with real swords he would have cut my head off long before I had a chance to strike his sword hand.

    digiroc

    Just FYI they use rattan, not wood, for swords and other weapons for safety reasons.  If rattan breaks it tends to do so with very blunt ends. Wood can split and leave a long and very dangerous splinter that could be accidentally driven into your opponent.       

    And yes, being on the receiving end of wrap shots (facing you but hitting you in the back of the head/torso/legs) can be quite painful.

    digiroc

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    Somewhat off topic ...
    « Reply #24 on: January 24, 2017, 02:57:25 PM »
    Just FYI they use rattan, not wood, for swords and other weapons for safety reasons...

    A quick google of the SCA shows that now they do indeed use rattan. The SCA has been around since 1966, taking a clue from Kendo practitioners to replace Oak for rattan in their swords may be something that happened after too many people got hurt with the Oak swords when their reenactments became too real in the heat of battle.

    The swords we used back then were definitely Oak. I'm a tree guy by profession so I know my wood. This event was over 30 years ago (I'm 69), on the other hand my cousin may have decided to use oak for our particular swords to ring my bell even more effectively.

    digiroc
    Pennsylvania

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