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Author Topic: Body Language and Threat Recognition  (Read 998 times)

Fenderbassist

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Body Language and Threat Recognition
« on: December 20, 2016, 01:29:24 PM »
Interested in learning more about the topic.  Was reading my copy of "Combat Shooting with Massad Ayoob" again, found the related section which is pretty much the same thing as this article:

http://www.backwoodshome.com/body-language-and-threat-recognition/

Any WTA members (especially the LEOs) with more information they could add, would be appreciated.
ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind. - William Shakespeare

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    MTK20

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    Re: Body Language and Threat Recognition
    « Reply #1 on: December 20, 2016, 03:56:00 PM »
     :shrug

    I have some good books on threat de-escalation and communication, but none that I know of that focus specifically on the physiological signs.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Fenderbassist

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    Re: Body Language and Threat Recognition
    « Reply #2 on: December 20, 2016, 04:28:20 PM »
    :shrug

    I have some good books on threat de-escalation and communication, but none that I know of that focus specifically on the physiological signs.

    Those are good related subjects, to me they would work nicely.
    ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

    Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind. - William Shakespeare

    Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams

    MTK20

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    Re: Body Language and Threat Recognition
    « Reply #3 on: December 20, 2016, 05:15:12 PM »
    Ok, from memory.

    Nonviolent communication by Rosenberg

    And crucial conversations by ... Grenny? And like 4 other authors.

    Sorry for not having the exact authors right now, but those two were highly suggested to me by a nurse to keep us and others out of conflict. Whether verbal or physical.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Fenderbassist

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    Re: Body Language and Threat Recognition
    « Reply #4 on: December 20, 2016, 05:54:01 PM »
    Ok, from memory.

    Nonviolent communication by Rosenberg

    And crucial conversations by ... Grenny? And like 4 other authors.

    Sorry for not having the exact authors right now, but those two were highly suggested to me by a nurse to keep us and others out of conflict. Whether verbal or physical.

    Awesome, thank you.
    ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

    Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind. - William Shakespeare

    Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams

    coyotesfan97

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    Re: Body Language and Threat Recognition
    « Reply #5 on: December 20, 2016, 05:54:38 PM »
    SouthNarc from Shivworks.com is a goldmine of information.

    Here's a 19 page PDF about managing unknown contacts MUCs. It covers what you're looking at.

    http://triangletactical.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/sncontacts.pdf
    ArizonaThe bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.  Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey!  Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

    MTK20

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    Re: Body Language and Threat Recognition
    « Reply #6 on: December 20, 2016, 06:04:51 PM »
    SouthNarc from Shivworks.com is a goldmine of information.

    Here's a 19 page PDF about managing unknown contacts MUCs. It covers what you're looking at.

    http://triangletactical.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/sncontacts.pdf

     :o

     :thumbup2
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    Penguin

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    Re: Body Language and Threat Recognition
    « Reply #7 on: December 20, 2016, 07:56:38 PM »
    It has been my experince that the first hint of trouble is usually the stare someone gives you before the fight starts. I don't know how to describe it but I sure recognize it. I have gotten to the point at work that 9 times out of 10 I canusually tell who is going to bother me just by the look they give me even before they get to me. I can also usually tell how serious of a problem that they are probably going to be. While this isn't fool proof it has been the best give away in my experience.

    Another thing is are they taking deep breaths particularly noticeable in their nostrils flaring? This is often a sign of someone getting ready for a fight and getting oxygen into their system. Another is someone working their hands in and out of a fist.

    Another weird one is when people start ditching clothing. That is another sign that a fight may be about to start.

    Pacing around or just looking nervous is another. Especially if their hands keep moving back and forth for where a weapon may be.

    As for that the FBI did a study on where the bad guys tend to keep their guns. Dead right is what it was called if I remember right. It is a great study if you find it.

    In their waste band on the front not in a holster was the most common place to hide a gun. This isn't to say bad guys don't use other methods but that was the most common. Use of a holster was uncommon. It was often found males would have a female companion often carry their gun for them because it was felt if they got stopped the girl was much less likely than they were to be searched.

    Some other things I look at, how is someone dressed? For example big coat that can hide a gun in summer is going to make me look at some a bit more than if they are wearing the same coat in the winter. Someone dressed like a gang banger is also likely to get more of my attention than the guy in the buisness suit. Some other things is wearing non work gloves in the summer or a ski mask or shades at night. I hope you get the idea I could go on and on.

    Where are you at and what are you doing?  When I'm working on an ATM they guy wandering around aimlessley watching from behind the check stands with nothing but a cup of coffey in his hands makes me wonder a lot more about his intentions than the old lady who is walking 4 feet away pushing a shoping cart for merchandise. In short if you don't look like you belong I start asking myself questions.

    A few thhings I have learned over the years. Hope this helps I may post a few others latter.
    Doobie Doobie Doo...

    Fenderbassist

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    Re: Body Language and Threat Recognition
    « Reply #8 on: December 21, 2016, 02:33:32 AM »
    SouthNarc from Shivworks.com is a goldmine of information.

    Here's a 19 page PDF about managing unknown contacts MUCs. It covers what you're looking at.

    http://triangletactical.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/sncontacts.pdf

    Ty kindly!
    ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

    Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind. - William Shakespeare

    Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams

    Fenderbassist

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    Re: Body Language and Threat Recognition
    « Reply #9 on: December 21, 2016, 02:37:22 AM »
    It has been my experince that the first hint of trouble is usually the stare someone gives you before the fight starts. I don't know how to describe it but I sure recognize it. I have gotten to the point at work that 9 times out of 10 I canusually tell who is going to bother me just by the look they give me even before they get to me. I can also usually tell how serious of a problem that they are probably going to be. While this isn't fool proof it has been the best give away in my experience.

    Another thing is are they taking deep breaths particularly noticeable in their nostrils flaring? This is often a sign of someone getting ready for a fight and getting oxygen into their system. Another is someone working their hands in and out of a fist.

    Another weird one is when people start ditching clothing. That is another sign that a fight may be about to start.

    Pacing around or just looking nervous is another. Especially if their hands keep moving back and forth for where a weapon may be.

    As for that the FBI did a study on where the bad guys tend to keep their guns. Dead right is what it was called if I remember right. It is a great study if you find it.

    In their waste band on the front not in a holster was the most common place to hide a gun. This isn't to say bad guys don't use other methods but that was the most common. Use of a holster was uncommon. It was often found males would have a female companion often carry their gun for them because it was felt if they got stopped the girl was much less likely than they were to be searched.

    Some other things I look at, how is someone dressed? For example big coat that can hide a gun in summer is going to make me look at some a bit more than if they are wearing the same coat in the winter. Someone dressed like a gang banger is also likely to get more of my attention than the guy in the buisness suit. Some other things is wearing non work gloves in the summer or a ski mask or shades at night. I hope you get the idea I could go on and on.

    Where are you at and what are you doing?  When I'm working on an ATM they guy wandering around aimlessley watching from behind the check stands with nothing but a cup of coffey in his hands makes me wonder a lot more about his intentions than the old lady who is walking 4 feet away pushing a shoping cart for merchandise. In short if you don't look like you belong I start asking myself questions.

    A few thhings I have learned over the years. Hope this helps I may post a few others latter.

    Thank you.  This is a nice expansion of what was covered in the original link :)
    ArizonaGet your facts first, then you can distort them as you please. - Mark Twain

    Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind. - William Shakespeare

    Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. - Douglas Adams

    tokugawa

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    Re: Body Language and Threat Recognition
    « Reply #10 on: December 27, 2016, 01:54:19 AM »
    If there is a loud drumming of the shields with the assagai, an attack is sure to come.  Form ranks!
    Also, if there is a loud beating of the Arisaka stocks on the ground, an attack is sure to come. Check the 1919's!

     Seriously, this is a great post and something of interest, I have always felt situational awareness often gets overlooked in the gun culture, it does does not have the glamour of fancy new hardware.
     
     

    coyotesfan97

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    Re: Body Language and Threat Recognition
    « Reply #11 on: December 27, 2016, 05:40:34 PM »
    I can't remember if it's in some of the links but the number 1 indicator of a pre assault for LE is a failure to obey verbal commands. I like having suspect's sit on the curb. If I tell someone to sit down and they start protesting the color codes go up etc.
    ArizonaThe bravest are surely those who have the clearest vision of what is before them, glory and danger alike, and yet notwithstanding, go out to meet it.  Thucydides 471BC

    "Hey!  Let's be careful out there." Sgt Phil Esterhaus played by Michael Conrad

    MTK20

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    Re: Body Language and Threat Recognition
    « Reply #12 on: December 27, 2016, 06:15:13 PM »
    I can't remember if it's in some of the links but the number 1 indicator of a pre assault for LE is a failure to obey verbal commands. I like having suspect's sit on the curb. If I tell someone to sit down and they start protesting the color codes go up etc.

    Noncompliance makes sense.

    I don't really agree with working ones hands in and out of a fist, as stated previously. I notice myself doing that just when I'm frustrated and I don't fight anybody. I guess it depends on the circumstances  :shrug.
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

    Paradoxically it is those who strive for self-reliance, who remain vigilant and ready to help others.

    digiroc

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    Re: Body Language and Threat Recognition
    « Reply #13 on: January 24, 2017, 07:22:15 AM »
    I few years ago I had a gig that entailed picking up cash (over a grand in mostly small denominations) and computers at a bingo game in a bad part of Pittsburgh. This was a once a week assignment and on a regular schedule. Over time I got a good scan of the street characters that hung out and I even hired one or two of the regulars to help lug out the cases of hand held bingo computers and put them in my van.

    One evening two new faces approached me and asked for a couple of bucks to get something to eat. these two didn't look underfed and were more muscular than was common. They were two close to me for comfort as I stood next to my van. I went from condition yellow to orange as I turned very quickly to the van and flung open the door, turned and reached into the van and grabbed a handful of change from the console and drew my J frame from inside my waistband as I turned to grab the coins.

    I never showed my snubbie, but held it down by my leg as I handed the change to the closest "actor" and said "no problem man" as i handed him the change. This quick movement startled them and one remarked "you don't need to shoot a guy asking for spare change", even though I never showed the weapon. It was all about situational awareness and body language.

    They took the change and walked away. I never saw then again and never had any more problems with my pickup at that location. Word had spread about my activities and that encounter was a probe into my ability to defend myself and the cash I carried. Criminals look for soft targets just as whackos look for gun free zones to commit mass shootings.

    digiroc
    Pennsylvania

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