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Author Topic: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion  (Read 1940 times)

RMc

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Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
« on: January 19, 2017, 10:24:35 PM »
Ran across three tests on different but commonly available smoothbore slug loads. The results were quite interesting - especially the radical expansion and limited penetration of the Winchester slug.


Winchester "hollow point" rifled slug penetration and expansion:


Slug test starts at frame 1:23
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 10:40:59 PM by RMc »
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #1 on: January 19, 2017, 10:29:17 PM »
    Federal "Deep Penetrator" with harder lead alloy construction:


    Test begins at frame 1:19

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    RMc

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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #2 on: January 19, 2017, 10:36:00 PM »
    Rio Royal  Brenneke this is probably the most readily available slug of this type.
    Note: The Brenneke design incorporates a harder lead alloy core with a "rifled" swaged on ring of soft lead.

    Test begins at frame 0:45
    « Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 12:33:59 AM by RMc »
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #3 on: January 19, 2017, 11:02:08 PM »
    Good stuff.  Thanks for posting it .   :thumbup1
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #4 on: January 20, 2017, 12:14:16 PM »
    I suspect many were suprised at the limited penetration of the Winchester Super X one ounce rifled slug.
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    RMc

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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #5 on: January 21, 2017, 01:31:35 PM »
    From my perspective, the introduction of "hollow pointed" rifled slugs was a triumph of "popular marketing" over terminal performance. 

    By the mid-1980s, almost all American made rifled slugs were increased in diameter to match the "standard" bore diameter and giving the best smoothbore accuracy to the genre since the 1930s introduction of Foster slug ammunition.  These were all deeply hollow base round nose projectiles with the thickest lead in the nose heavy front.  Most expansion tests and recovered slugs from game, almost uniformly displayed a flat - short wadcutter like terminal shape.

    Although I don't recall which manufacturer introduced the shallow hollow point rifled slug in the late 1980s, the slugs of the big three soon all sported a new "dimpled" nose configuration - as if a nearly three quarter inch projectile needed greater expansion!  Soon, expanded slugs began to display the now classic hole in the middle or simply fragmented. 

    In smaller gauges the fragmentation problem became pronounced.  In this example, twenty gauge #3B exhibited greater penetration in the test medium than a 5/8th ounce rifled slug.

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-22-20-gauge-shotgun/



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    Roper1911

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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #6 on: January 21, 2017, 09:45:51 PM »
    all the more reason to run supermeplat slugs. I need to rebuild my mold...
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #7 on: January 22, 2017, 10:00:23 AM »
    Ran across three tests on different but commonly available smoothbore slug loads. The results were quite interesting - especially the radical expansion and limited penetration of the Winchester slug.


    Winchester "hollow point" rifled slug penetration and expansion:


    Slug test starts at frame 1:23


     :hmm So if I understand this correctly, the 9mm fmj's in my Sig are more of a over penetration risk than this shotgun slug in my apartment?

    I think with barely 14 inches in soft gelatin, even #4 buck would penetrate more than that slug does. Winchester may make a crappy bear slug, but for home defense a 1.25 inch wound channel from a 12 gauge that penetrates just over a foot might be fantastic.

    Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing.
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #8 on: January 22, 2017, 01:51:15 PM »
    I'm fine with a slug transferring all of it's energy to an intruder.


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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #9 on: January 22, 2017, 02:37:11 PM »
    From my perspective, the introduction of "hollow pointed" rifled slugs was a triumph of "popular marketing" over terminal performance. 

    I don't know... But I kind of disagree here.   See, the reasons Shotguns are so wonderful is the versatility granted by picking the right tool for the job... and in this case the tools are your shell selection. 
    The HP design by Winchester has it's purpose... and saying that it's less desirable than the others simply for the lack of penetration is only true if maximum penetration is the purpose. 

    Winchester clearly states the purpose right on the box. 
    "DEER".  And for those that are illiterate, it clearly shows the images of a white tail deer.  Hardened penetrators are less ideal for this game... Thin skinned and light boned, like your average Snowflake, you want more shock effect into the target.   The HP design causes a lot of deformation, which as we know, helps cause tissue disrupting shock.  It really does do a lot of damage into soft meat target... Making it the ideal choice for White Tail - or for Defensive use.
    The other slugs... Are of course better suited for Dangerous Game where that max penetration is ideal.   And what makes them ideal for that is the same reasons it's less ideal than the Super X slug.   I've seen a lot of well placed shots from high powered rifles that allowed the game animal to run for a half mile... Where similar shots with rounds like a 150 grain .30-30 just crush the target.
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #10 on: January 22, 2017, 02:47:03 PM »
    I have to agree with BS and George here.  I have recently taken a liking to shotguns, but the idea of using slugs has been unappealing.  Pinpoint accuracy and penetration...  Great for bear, less ideal for home defense. 

    But seeing this video...  Winchester Super X?  I want to try some.
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #11 on: January 22, 2017, 03:35:13 PM »
    I have to agree with BS and George here.  I have recently taken a liking to shotguns, but the idea of using slugs has been unappealing.  Pinpoint accuracy and penetration...  Great for bear, less ideal for home defense. 

    But seeing this video...  Winchester Super X?  I want to try some.

    Agreed with wanting to try some. on paper, the Win X is less likely to hit something I don't want to hit and more likely to safely stop what I want to stop, within the confines of my apartment then what I currently have right next to me.
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    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #12 on: January 22, 2017, 04:17:10 PM »
    They make an awesome sound when you fire them at long range while wearing electronic muffs.
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #13 on: January 22, 2017, 05:46:27 PM »
    I don't know... But I kind of disagree here.   See, the reasons Shotguns are so wonderful is the versatility granted by picking the right tool for the job... and in this case the tools are your shell selection. 
    The HP design by Winchester has it's purpose... and saying that it's less desirable than the others simply for the lack of penetration is only true if maximum penetration is the purpose. 

    Winchester clearly states the purpose right on the box. 
    "DEER".  And for those that are illiterate, it clearly shows the images of a white tail deer.  Hardened penetrators are less ideal for this game... Thin skinned and light boned, like your average Snowflake, you want more shock effect into the target.   The HP design causes a lot of deformation, which as we know, helps cause tissue disrupting shock.  It really does do a lot of damage into soft meat target... Making it the ideal choice for White Tail - or for Defensive use.
    The other slugs... Are of course better suited for Dangerous Game where that max penetration is ideal.   And what makes them ideal for that is the same reasons it's less ideal than the Super X slug.   I've seen a lot of well placed shots from high powered rifles that allowed the game animal to run for a half mile... Where similar shots with rounds like a 150 grain .30-30 just crush the target.

    George,

    I can see that perspective, however, my answer was from a hunters point of view.  As I noted, prior to  "hollow pointing", soft lead rifled slugs would generally pancake down to a highly effective  flat - short wadcutter-like terminal shape, but seldom fragmented.

    Now as for purposely selecting slugs for limited penetration, Winchester has already taken the next step with a line of pre-segmented slugs designed for defensive use. 

    Here is a detailed article, including gelatin penetration tests, over at Active Response Training on this slug and the Ranger version aimed at the LE market:

    http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/new-winchester-segmented-slug-round

     
    « Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 06:53:14 PM by RMc »
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #14 on: January 22, 2017, 10:13:50 PM »
    As pioneered by the Triton Quick Shok round, which broke into 3 pieces.
    There was a .22LR load that did the same... it worked well on a possum that I needed to kill.

    However, I just don't dig fragmenting rounds.
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #15 on: January 22, 2017, 11:52:27 PM »
    I have some of the PDX rounds, and have fired them through my Mossy.

    With the 21" barrel installed, at 25yds I hit *precisely* where I wanted to (a nice hole punched in the forehead of the target).  Very nice.

    Mine were the load with the slug and three balls of shot roughly equivalent to 9mm rounds.  Less appealing was the inability to predict where those balls of shot were going to go. I would not want to depend on that in a hostage situation.  I think I'll be getting my hands on some of the Super-X hollow points up there.

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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #16 on: January 23, 2017, 12:49:41 AM »
    However, I just don't dig fragmenting rounds.

    Nor do I.
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #17 on: January 29, 2017, 07:14:55 PM »
    In smaller gauges the fragmentation problem became pronounced.  In this example, twenty gauge #3B exhibited greater penetration in the test medium than a 5/8th ounce rifled slug.

    http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-22-20-gauge-shotgun/

    If you missed checking out the link above, you will be shocked to find that #3 buckshot from a 20 gauge out penetrated a standard Remington 5/8 ounce rifled slug.  The slug simply fragmented! :hmm
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #18 on: January 29, 2017, 07:24:51 PM »
    Quote from: MTK20

    I think with barely 14 inches in soft gelatin, even #4 buck would penetrate more than that slug does.
    [/quote

    Here is a 5 yard test of Hornady #4B from the same source.  Penetration - take a look starting at frame 2:23



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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #19 on: January 29, 2017, 07:38:27 PM »
    [quote author=MTK20

    I think with barely 14 inches in soft gelatin, even #4 buck would penetrate more than that slug does.


    Here is a 5 yard test of Hornady #4B from the same source.  Penetration - take a look starting at frame 2:23



    Ah ok, So my beloved #4 buckshot as made by Hornady's Varmint Express line is still the superior product for my purposes  :hmm.

    Thanks for the info!
    Texas
    Do we forget that cops were primarily still using 6 Shot Revolvers well through the mid 80's? It wasn't until after 1986 that most departments then relented and went to autos.
    Capacity wasn't really an issue then... and honestly really it's not even an issue now.
    Ray Chapman, used to say that the 125-grain Magnum load’s almost magical stopping power was the only reason to load .357 instead of .38 Special +P ammunition into a fighting revolver chambered for the Magnum round. I agree. - Massad Ayoob

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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #20 on: January 29, 2017, 08:24:37 PM »
       I go by cost.  I got a crap-ton of Winchester slugs for $2.75 for 5 awhile back.  Good for practice and anything less than dangerous game it works.     I also have a bunch of RIO slugs as well.    For dangerous game I would get hardened slugs.

       Unlike Kaso, I AM a fan of slugs.  Not as primary but every SHTF type setup I have for shotguns, the shotgun has 1 less than capacity in the tube and my reloads are 50/50 mix of shells.   

     If your SD situation ever empties your tube of buckshot, your ranges will be reaching out there and possibly behind light cover.     I can hit a 14" square target with slugs at 125 yards, I practice loading the tube with buckshot for up-close, but have the capability to match a lot of "normal" "assault rifle" shooters range capabilities.

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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #21 on: January 29, 2017, 09:04:28 PM »
    ^ This ^ .   :thumbup1
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #22 on: February 05, 2017, 06:03:18 AM »
    They make an awesome sound when you fire them at long range while wearing electronic muffs.


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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #23 on: February 05, 2017, 08:10:23 AM »
    The only living things I have ever shot with the normal 'rifled' slugs was a deer and a few coyotes. They basically cored coyotes like an apple, and did nice damage on the deer. They seemed more than adequate damage/penetration wise for self defense use.

    I still like my 87 grain hollowpoints from my 25-06 on yotes tho. It basically grenades them if under about 200 yards. If using a shotgun #4 buckshot is the best medicine for coyotes IMO. This is in little more open habitat of OK tho. If you were in heavier brush a lighter load might work better. 
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    Re: Rifled Slug Penetration vs Expansion
    « Reply #24 on: February 08, 2017, 11:10:10 AM »
    This is exactly why I use the Remington Slugger 1oz at 1560fps. I have noted that even at extreme close range, integrity is retained, and the slug simply compresses and expands radially. Push them faster, a'la 3" Slugger, 1oz, and they begin to "blow through the middle" as they implode on impact, and fragmentation results. When this happens, you may see the slug only penetrate 1 milk jug of water! I personally prefer the limited penetration, but weight retention and significant deformation and large front meplat of the 1560fps Sluggers.
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