Weapons and Gear => Shotguns => Topic started by: Nightcrawler on April 19, 2012, 12:18:23 pm
Title: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Nightcrawler on April 19, 2012, 12:18:23 pm
Okay, daddy wants.
I've been pining for a semiauto shotgun for a long time. I broke down a bought a bunch of Mesa Tactical stuff for my 870 instead, though (which I could always pull off and sell if I buy a new shotgun).
I kind of want a Saiga 12, but there are some downsides. I'll get into that later. Check this out: http://www.tactical-life.com/online/exclusives/remington-r12-police-semi-auto-shotgun/ (http://www.tactical-life.com/online/exclusives/remington-r12-police-semi-auto-shotgun/)
REMINGTON R12 POLICE SEMI-AUTO SHOTGUN
Posted by Jorge Amselle. Ultra-fast scattergun designed for mean-streets performance (with video).
Remington’s innovative Versa Max shotgun has been out for a while and a tactical version is in the works, but new from Remington Defense is the R12 Police version of the Versa Max, which we recently had a chance to test. Like the standard Versa Max, the R12 uses a unique gas system that allows for reliable semi-auto fire using a mix of ammo from 2¾-inch to 3.5-inch 12-gauge shells.
This Versa Port gas system also significantly reduces perceived recoil, is self-cleaning and makes the gun much more controllable even in rapid fire. The Police R12 will be available with a standard 18-inch barrel version or with a 14-inch barrel, and both feature extended magazine tubes. As the video shows, it is possible to load seven rounds in the short version. Other features will include ghost ring sights and a length of Picatinny rail on top of the receiver for optics.
The newly designed handguard will also include accessory rails at the three, six, and nine o’clock positions, which can be removed if so preferred. Standard and pistol-gripped stocks will also be available. In firing, the recoil was extremely comfortable even using full-power loads. Look for a full review in a future issue of Guns & Weapons for Law Enforcement. For more information, visit remington.com or call 800-243-9700.
***********
There's also this video:
Remington Versa Max R12 Police Shotgun (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBDkvFXpgts#)
So it looks like Remington is finally coming up with a worthy replacement for the Remington 11-87. This gun seems to be a lot smoother and faster. It's a pretty good shotgun market right now, with this and the Mossberg being available.
I wish both of them had shortened buttstocks, but it seems the only way to get that on a semi is to buy a gun model they make one for and put a Mesa Tactical "urbino" stock on it.
So why this over the Kel-Tec? The Kel-Tec holds twice as many rounds, they say. It's also still basically vaporware, is completely unproven, is clunky, is far slower to reload, and I want a semiauto.
So why this over the Saiga? That's a toughy. Cost and hassle, mainly. The Stock Saiga 12 isn't that great. To get it into a great configuration, you have to put a lot of work into it. The magazines are very expensive, and as with any magazine-fed gun you're going to need a supply of them. But there are some strong proponents of the Saiga 12 shotgun, like this fellow who posted a comment on the article:
Quote
Steve E Says: April 17th, 2012 at 3:13 pm
That super low recoil is sweet, but OOPS, You just eliminated or suppressed some bad guys then ran out of ammo VeraMan. ( clock ticking as you hustle more rounds into your “shuck n chuck” antiquated load and un-load system.
Meanwhile back on the hot seat I just slapped another 10 round mag in my Saiga in 2.5 seconds and keep suppressing & eliminating the bad guys waiting for You to catch up.
Of course that ‘if’ My 20 round drum is not being used ‘wink’
Leave the Vera for the hunter / skeet shooters and the Saiga for urban defense/offense and war.
Wow, Steve. You must get in so many gunfights. In all the time you spend on the "urban battlefield" not firing the Saiga, but carrying it, I bet that 20-round drum is fun to lug around. Also, I'm dubious as to his reload speed, since in most Saigas you have to hold the bolt open manually if you want to be able to insert a fully-loaded magazine longer than one of the factory five-rounders.
That's one of the downsides to the Saiga. The other is that you're depending on imports from Russia. I remembered when all the Saigas dried up in 2008 or so. Sure, they came back, but that's not the kind of longevity I like.
I'd still like one. The R12 is giving it some stiff competition though. Not that I can afford a new shotgun now, but someday.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: HiVelSword on April 19, 2012, 04:14:24 pm
6+1 and stubby looking. I like it!
EDIT! Hey, waitaminute!!! That's a 14" gun. Only explanation is that it holds a shell on the carrier a la Benelli Super 90 fame.
Coolness!
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Harm on April 19, 2012, 05:33:02 pm
sorry its a Remington. Not interested.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: seanp on April 19, 2012, 06:03:07 pm
Hmm. Remington semi-auto shotgun. Hmm. Better get a Benelli.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Nightcrawler on April 19, 2012, 06:28:03 pm
Get a Benelli and pay $600 more for a gun that comes with a neutered magazine tube?
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: strangelittleman on April 19, 2012, 06:39:29 pm
I like the full-size w/ conventional stock.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: seanp on April 19, 2012, 06:45:01 pm
The last M4 that I handled was un-castrated.
SOB, I just checked the WSS website and apperantly they are 4+1 there now too.
That's ridiculous. I wonder if that can be easily fixed.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Nightcrawler on April 19, 2012, 06:46:33 pm
The ones in the US come with a 5-round magazine tube. The M2 and M3 have a short tube. The M4 has a full length false tube. You can buy an aftermarket replacement, but it may be a 922r violation (US only).
Benelli now has an all US M4 that costs almost $1600.00.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Harm on April 19, 2012, 07:35:12 pm
if the 1100 is an exanple it'll be in Benelli territory right quick. "Because we're remington - and paying high dollar for a bastard offspring of your granddaddy's guns is hip!"
Nah pay a lot less and get the Mossberg or stick w the 870 you already own.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Kaso on April 19, 2012, 07:37:38 pm
Pray-tell, why? I thought Remington was a good brand. :shrug
Or was that ^ your answer?
Kaso
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: GeorgeHill on April 19, 2012, 11:01:20 pm
The last Uncastrated M4 we had in was 1999.99. Yeah... that's worth it if you are freaking LOADED, and I don't mean with ammo.
The VersaMax is a great platform.... it as a very good system of operation. When it first came out, I said it would make for a very good tactical platform and it looks like I was correct.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Harm on April 20, 2012, 12:13:37 am
Pray-tell, why? I thought Remington was a good brand. :shrug
Or was that ^ your answer?
Kaso
Kaso Remington was a great brand and proved themselves for generations. But in recent years they've attempted many different corner cuts w mixed results. And then charged even MORE money for it. I just cant love them and given many cost savings have resulted in reliability issues i cant get excited about this gun knowing Remingtons proclivity of late for ridiculously high prices - average quality and soso reliability. Thats w a design 60 years old - how bad will they botch a new one or charge to make it run? See their "amazing" success w reliability in the 1100. And you'll pay extra coin to boot. In my opinion Remington is the aged company trading on its name rather than quality.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: GeorgeHill on April 26, 2012, 12:23:49 pm
Remington is still doing a lot of things RIGHT and they are not skimping on the quality of those guns. 700's and 870's are just as good as ever - if not more so. They have tried cost cutting measures. Such as the SPS Stocks - and those have worked out great. Customers are actually like them more than the old regular synthetic stocks even though the SPS stocks cost less and Remington makes more money on it. The lower cost SUPERCELL recoil pads cost Remington less than the Limbsaver pads they had used... and it's a better recoil pad than the Limbsaver. That's worked out very well for them. The VTR thing though - the Triangle Barrels. I don't see the point in those and they seem to be backing away in some areas with that, and doubling down in others. The R1 1911 is about as good and solid as a production 1911 can get. And while they really screwed the pooch on the Marlins... They are now making pretty decent examples and our issues with them are rapidly thinning out. Next year I suspect we'll see the best Marlins to ever wear the brand.
What I don't get though... Is Remington owning Marlin... Who is making the X7 series rifles which are pretty much Savage Clones... Why is Remington making Savage Clones? And Marlin owns NEF/H&R which are importing the PARDNER pumps which are Chinese made 870 knock offs... Why is Remington then importing 870 Knock Off's?
The new VersaMax is a good solid platform. I'm very interested in the new Police version. There is a longer one for Civie Sales which would be great for 3Gun. I want one.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: RMc on April 26, 2012, 12:34:25 pm
George,
I agree the Remington Supercell is a better recoil pad and exhibits greater durability.
I have found the Limbsaver pads have a propensity to "melt" into a sticky mess around the edges in reaction to synthetic shotgun case linings. I suspect many shooters have run into this phenomena with Limbsaver recoil pads.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: GeorgeHill on April 26, 2012, 12:43:13 pm
A lot of common cleaning fluids will melt the Limbsavers too. Turn them gummy. I like the pads when shooting, sure. But the Supercell pads are just flat out better. I think they reduce felt recoil better too. I wish Remington would put those on some of their thumping Marlins.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: coelacanth on April 26, 2012, 11:35:24 pm
A brief clarification please - why do you think that we may see " the best Marlins ever to wear the brand" by next year?
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: GeorgeHill on April 28, 2012, 01:08:24 am
Just a prediction.
:whistle
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: coelacanth on April 28, 2012, 01:59:42 am
Fair enough. I can wait. :whistle
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Harm on April 30, 2012, 01:46:29 am
IDK George - everyone I know who's purchased a new production 870 has had issues w them. :whistle
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: mwcoleburn on April 30, 2012, 02:15:54 am
IDK George - everyone I know who's purchased a new production 870 has had issues w them. :whistle
Have a newish one (2010 vintage) never had a problem of any kind.
What I really want to see is a comparison of the Versamax and the 930spx
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Coronach on April 30, 2012, 10:45:57 pm
what problems?
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Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: GeorgeHill on April 30, 2012, 10:49:16 pm
I bought two new production 870 Tacticals and they have not had any issues. I've sold many more and they have not had issues either.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: RMc on May 23, 2012, 10:14:29 pm
George:
Regarding 3.5" chambers: Have you seen any notable degredation of pattern with 2.75" buckshot or accuracy with 2.75" rifled slugs? The .75" jump from shell to forcing cone does look like it may be a factor.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: HiVelSword on May 24, 2012, 11:32:35 am
Just noticed in the 2nd video. Gotta be a Vang Comp +1 extension. Because the website says it's a 4+1 gun and that's 7 rounds flying out of it in the 2nd volley.
So it's 5+1+1 (one on the carrier). I really like this gun...
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: GeorgeHill on May 24, 2012, 11:50:28 am
Regarding 3.5" chambers: Have you seen any notable degredation of pattern with 2.75" buckshot or accuracy with 2.75" rifled slugs? The .75" jump from shell to forcing cone does look like it may be a factor.
That's a good question. But no, I've not seen any effect on accuracy or patterning. One would think it would have an adverse effect, but I don't think it does. More testing is required.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Skunk Ape on July 04, 2012, 12:08:25 am
There was a write-up on the Versa-Max tactical in the last issue of AMERICAN RIFLEMAN. It ran everything in the test but some weird 2" shells the author scrounged up. I'm interested just to have a shotgun that will digest anything on the ammo shelf.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: akodo on July 08, 2012, 01:35:12 pm
It's been two years since I wrote the opening post.
Is the 18" Versa Max available to the public yet? Last I checked the only non-hunting model had a 22" barrel (requiring 2" more barrel to get the same capacity as a Mossberg 590).
Is the 18" version out there yet? If not, why the hell not?
What's the tube capacity on the 18" model? Why is it Mossberg and Benelli can get seven 2.75" rounds under an 18" tube, but Remington and FN can only fit six?
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Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: HiVelSword on April 09, 2014, 07:36:37 pm
This would be my second choice. It's a great looking shotgun that you can load a ghost shell onto the carrier. Always a plus for me. But if I were buying a semi I'd get the new Beretta 1301 Tactical and throw a Briley mag extension on it.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Nightcrawler on April 09, 2014, 07:44:26 pm
Does the Beretta have a reversible safety?
Can you make the buttstock shorter than the 14.5" length of pull most come with?
What's the difference between the 1301 Tactical and the TX4?
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: HiVelSword on April 09, 2014, 08:58:14 pm
Can you make the buttstock shorter than the 14.5" length of pull most come with?
What's the difference between the 1301 Tactical and the TX4?
Erik Stern knows for sure. Hit him up on FB. I thought the 1301 was basically replacing (due to practically being the same thing) the TX4 but sure enough, both are on their website. :scrutiny
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: StevenTing on September 21, 2015, 09:13:50 pm
Thread resurrect again. Got to handle a Versamax today and I liked the feel. It's been 3 years since the original post. What's the verdict on this shotgun? With the sticker price of $1300 plus tax at the LGS, I want to know for sure that it's a good gun. I've also been considering a 930spx.
Unless someone knows where I can get a new barrel for a Remington 1100 that will accept a choke.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Nightcrawler on September 21, 2015, 09:59:55 pm
Is the 18" version available to private citizens yet? Before the "R12" with the 18" tube was only available to Law Enforcement.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Raptor on September 21, 2015, 10:21:30 pm
Checked Remy's website: they don't even list an 18" VersaMax.
And while my experience with the VersaMax is extremely limited, as in I rented it from my old range twice, I came away very much unimpressed. IIRC, I was one of the very first people to rent it, if not the very first person, but the gun had problems right out of the box. Both times when I rented it, it would not always feed a shell into the chamber after I'd loaded it up and racked the charging handle. I was eventually able to get it to feed, though I'm not sure how, and it cycled just fine every time I pulled the trigger. The first time I rented it, I thought it was just me being stupid since I have little experience with shotguns in general. After it happened the second time I rented it, which was maybe a month or so later, I mentioned it to the guys at the rental counter, and they said that they were aware of the issue and were trying to get a shipping label from Remington so they could send it back to the factory to get it fixed. This was a brand-new gun, mind you, and even after a month or so did not appear to have been used very much at all.
Now, it's probably Remington's quality control rather than the design itself that's the problem, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: GeorgeHill on September 21, 2015, 10:52:09 pm
For the same money, you could get the FNH SLP. A gun built to much higher quality standards.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: StevenTing on September 21, 2015, 11:29:43 pm
For the same money, you could get the FNH SLP. A gun built to much higher quality standards.
i think I held this one too. Was selling for $1099. Seemed nice as well.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Harm on September 21, 2015, 11:55:41 pm
Or you could buy the Versamax Sportsman, have the barrel chopped and threaded for chokes for about $100 and resighted for about $65 and be done with it for under $100
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Avenger29 on September 22, 2015, 10:26:55 pm
If I'm paying over $1300 for a shotgun by God it's going to be a Benelli.
Less than that and I'll take a 930SPX, Beretta, or an FN.
I actually like some Remington products and don't hate on them like a lot of the internet but I just don't think the Versamax is worth the premium over the other decent autoloading shotguns on the market.
Also, for the year or so I owned my 11-87P it did pretty well on ammo. The light birdshot loads would not cycle it but 1oz did pretty well, so I could feed it cheap ammunition without a problem so long as I opted for the slightly heavier stuff.
Title: Re: Remington R12 Versa Max Police
Post by: Harm on September 23, 2015, 12:15:52 am
http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/speedloaders-accessories/shotgun-shell-holders/receiver-mount-shotshell-holder-prod23164.aspx Side Saddle and Rail $100
http://www.briley.com/chokeinstallationpricing.aspx Barrel Chop - $120
And my 11-87 outperformed other semi's at the last shotgun match I attended.
Don't spend a ton of money on a shotgun. That's dumb. Get one used, replace parts if needed, and run the damned thing.
I could say the same thing about my 870 next to the Saigas and even some 1100's ;) Buy what you want. If you've got the money spend it. Don't let a bunch of jackasses on the internet tell you otherwise. lol